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Originally Posted by 55bar
I worked alongside a Berklee grad at a blue collar job, and he could find no local jazz gigs, and the closest weekly jazz jam was a 2hr 20min round trip...he saw his chops going down the tubes quickly.
I hate to add a negative slant to this thread, but having the opportunity to participate in a traditional local nurturing jazz community environment is basically non-existent these days, and is why so many seek the academic scene as a substitute. So many of us want to jump into the fire and jam, gig, like warriors seeking battle when there are no wars to be fought.
For those that feel born to be a jazz musician, the decision to live in an area with an very active jazz scene is a life decision you have to make. For those living in an area with a scene, and not taking advantage of it, shame on you!
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12-11-2015 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by destinytot
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Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
1. Enough tunes learned
2. Cloth ears
3. Any gigging chops
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Originally Posted by NSJ
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Originally Posted by diminix
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Originally Posted by destinytot
The three octave scales mentioned are good but just one thing.
What is hinted at though is the concept of knowing the fretboard vertically and I think that is essential.
For what it's worth, here was an arduous process that did get me quite far: When I was starting with jazz lines I would learn a charlie parker line or head, then go through, measure by measure, while playing, and say out loud how the note related to the chord of the harmony. Then I'd do it again and say how the note related to the key of the moment. I would do it in some different positions and keys.
This is a huge pain in the ass and takes a lot of time but I felt it did wonders for learning jazz vocabulary and how it works on the fretboard. I didn't just learn the solos/heads then forget about them, and I didn't just practice scales up and down the fretboard. I learned how the music related to the scale and what that looked like on the fretboard.
If I had to give a soundbyte piece of advice it would be that. You could do it with lines from someone else's solo, or a head to a standard, etc.
Scales are great, scale fingerings are nice, but nothing beats playing the actual music, although I know some disagree. It seems that if time is limited it makes the most sense to spend time on things that are most directly related to the music.
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Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
When i say basic performance level I'm setting the bar a little lower than you might think.
I guess I could be more specific. Maybe something as simple as being able to improvise lines that represent the harmony of the song - even if they aren't super swingin' or interesting - and to be able to do for most common standards, and not get too lost. And being able to comp and keep the changes, not clash with the melody or soloist too much.
Not really talking about high level interaction or anything like that, or a great performance that keeps em coming back.
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Originally Posted by mrcee
I suppose I could have been more specific about this "level" because I am trying to set an objective bar that we can more or less agree when somebody has passed that bar or not.
So once somebody does reach a certain minimum of technical ability and knowledge then, yeah, confidence takes you pretty far.
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Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
(and now I make a living teaching, so all the technique and knowledge truly is useful, though admittedly not essential.)
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I've been playing guitar for a long time, but 18 months ago I started focusing on jazz after a 10 year hiatus of not really playing much at all. I play in a jazz duo with another guitarist now—mainly the kinds of gigs where people are eating burgers and maybe only half paying attention to the music, so the bar is set pretty low! At any rate, it's difficult to balance learning tunes along with the more fundamental aspects of music and playing guitar, like...knowing the fretboard really, really well, etc. I could seriously spend forever just farting around with cool sounding voicings on ii-V-I for eternity. Yet, when learning tunes I tend to just straight up forget stuff or get lost, even on tunes I've played a million times. Brain farts are a major issue for me. For awhile I was focusing on a new tune every month, but since we've started gigging, I've had to increase that pace. I can't say that I internalize changes as well as I'd like to, and find myself more often than not lost, staring at the Real Book (ick), or both. I recently signed up for Richie Zellon's bebop guitar course, which is helping provide some much needed structure to my practice time. I've been playing his exercises in quarter notes at 60 BPM, singing the intervals, etc. to try to ingrain some of this.
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Originally Posted by wzpgsr
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Originally Posted by wzpgsr
Last edited by 55bar; 12-11-2015 at 06:26 PM.
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12-11-2015, 05:58 PM #38destinytot GuestOriginally Posted by JakeAcci
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Originally Posted by 55bar
Now, by my estimation I feel I have none of these things. So that's progress? Have I got worse....
No that's perception. My ear is always going to be more critical than my playing (it should be!). The day I go 'nothing more to work on' - well that's something I'd rather not think about.
So the flip side is - don't let it hold you back.
I do think that playing a lot is really important. I think it's a good idea not to give too much of a crap what you sound like on stage. Just do it.
Record, listen back to it a few days later, sigh heavily and resume work.
Rinse and repeat.
I've never met a good player who isn't horribly self critical. The trick is to switch it off in company (and on stage).... And to not let it stop you being happy. Real trick, that....Last edited by christianm77; 12-11-2015 at 06:29 PM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
"If you can't play stuff you like, try to like what play."
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12-11-2015, 06:43 PM #41destinytot GuestOriginally Posted by wzpgsr
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Originally Posted by JakeAcci
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12-11-2015, 07:04 PM #43destinytot Guest
I have a request. I'd like to learn about modal interchange - what it is, why it's useful, how to apply it, please. Thanks in advance!
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Strangely I don't do half the stuff I read about on here, I don't particularly practice arpeggios, or guide tones, I don't know any of my modes, or at least I certainly don't use them in the style of playing I like.
I transcribe analyse, extrapolate practice in a FEW different keys, (man who's got the hours in the day to take everything through 12 keys?!) The rest of my time is spent playing along to my transcriptions ...... Oh and posting/reading/learning/enjoying this forum.
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Originally Posted by destinytot
it's strange to think that everyone
here is at all sorts of levels ....
but lots of advise is good for all
kinds of levels so it still works
up the arp down the scale ... pretty
I'm a bit drunk .... oh well
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Yea... you really need to separate practicing technique, which I consider fretboard skills and then performance, learning tunes... understanding tunes... eventually understanding music.
All this is with the goal of being able to be play in jazz styles.
The part about internalizing is really the end result, your instincts. But I think of them as your technique. You need basic references and layers of relationships. The fretboard becomes Cmaj Ionian, just the notes, the entire fretboard, that's your basic reference. There are lots of fingering, the end result is you can perform within that basic Cmaj reference anywhere on the neck. You should be able to move smoothly through overlapping fingerings or jump as needed. And you should be able to do this without watching. That is the basic starting point of that Cmaj fretboard. Once you have those fingerings, your almost there... the rest of the modes or starting on different notes is already there, just a different reference or starting point.
Generally Harmonic min is learned from Natural Minor fingerings for reference and melodic minor from Dorian as starting reference... or just use Natural minor for MM. it doesn't matter in the end... they become their own starting reference.
In the end your also going to find what you want to sound like... and dump many or the patterns starting on different degrees, at least with HM and MM...
Really only when you get to that point are you able to start being able to hear and understand relationships beyond Diatonic basics... on your guitar, being able to perform and practice techniques at the same time.
It's not a five year path for most, at least with organized schedule. I've seen guitarist get their fretboard together within one year. But knowing what to practice, what technique etc... seems to be the trick.
I'm off to another gig, a long one 4 hour duo with sax...ooooh lots of work. I'll check back in tomorrow
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Here's a serious issue that trips me up --cul-se-sacs, where I feel like I hit a dead end, wind up stumbling, because I wound thinking. Consciously thinking ( as opposed to merely concentrating, which is always needed ) seems to be the enemy of performance .
I seek out advice from my friend who is a retired sax player and flamenco guitarist. Unfortunately, his guitar playing skills are reserved for flamenco ( he actually wound up teaching flamenco to the leader of a group here called Swing Gitane, perhaps the best gypsy jazz group here ) .
He said that you gotta have a body of clichés internalized, some thing more than licks that act as connecting vocabulary that can be used as reserve lines for the moments when you have the cul-de-sacs. All the great players have them. It's not meant to be a bad thing.
And art pepper told him 50-60 years ago when Art was the chief soloist in Benny Carter's band that he didn't know anything about playing changes. Art only had one rule -play melodically.
I will quote my friend again what Johnny Griffin told him 45 years ago in Madrid : "Johnny Griffin told me the same thing....I was in a group that opened for Griffin at a then popular Madrid jazz club. Griffin came in early to hear the group and when I got off the stand he said to me "You think you hit a wrong note, didn't you." Then he said there are no wrong notes unless the player thinks its a wrong note then he gets flustered and transmits that to the listener. Theoretically every note you play of the 12 possibilities fits if you think about it. But if you think the note is wrong it becomes wrong in your mind and things can then start of fall apart. There are several ways to correct this..... Another is to stay on that note until you feel it as right. But to think while you are playing is the most difficult and poorest way to approach the situation because as Sonny Rollins mentioned the other day "You can"t think and play (improvise) at the same time." The mind cannot handle this. The theory of notes and chords has to be there long before you play if you are using a theoretical approach"
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Originally Posted by JakeAcci
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Originally Posted by NSJ
But to think while you are playing is the most difficult and poorest way to approach the situation because as Sonny Rollins mentioned the other day "You can"t think and play (improvise) at the same time." The mind cannot handle this. The theory of notes and chords has to be there long before you play if you are using a theoretical approach"
Also, sorry if this goes off the philosophical deep end, but what is "thought" in this context? If I have the thought "I should leave more space in the next chorus" then am I screwed and it's wrong because it was a thought? If I'm reading a chart and I acknowledge something like "the next chord in the chart is a dim7, not a m7b5" and then adjust tones appropriately, is that "thinking"?
Working with a lot of different students (disclaimer: mostly not jazz) I've definitely noticed that some people are prone to taking more cerebral approaches than others, and to stifle those folks by telling them their cognitive processes are bad for music is no bueno - use their strengths to their advantage!
A perfect example of this is when talking about phrasing. I've definitely observed that with some people if I give them a lot of data-oriented structure with phrasing then their playing gets worse and worse, they slow down, they over analyze, yet with some people without some tangible data-oriented guidance they just won't play anything at all, and a mental model gets them structuring their ideas much better.
So NSJ, as a fellow over-thinker, don't let the anti-thinking lynch mob get to you!
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Yea you need to figure out who you are etc... and then decide on your path to get somewhere, if that's even something you care about.
Navdeep... Art was cool but Man.. Johnny Griffin always had my number. He had big influence on me as a kid... loved his playing and abilities to play through hip changes and feel like everything was diatonic. Wish I could have seen him live more...
Brazilian Rosewood and CITES
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