Early/traditional jazz - where to start?

[woland]

I am enthusiastic beginner - have been dabbing in more modern styles - mostly 1950-60 Blue Note jazz for a few years. But I would like to learn how to play over more traditional 1920s-30s tunes - both comping and soloing. When you look at letsay "Firehouse Jazz Band" fake book those progressions are "simple" - how do you beef them up to create nicer sounding chordal lines?
Any books, resources, artists I should spend time transcribing? TIA for any comments.
Btw - I am not trying to become a traditional jazzer - just be able to take my 335 and amp to traditional jam and not sound completely out of place.

Edit:
Thank you all the replies! I thought that I should ask a bit more specific question.
Is there a list of "basic" must-know standards for early/traditional jazz somewhere?
Sortta Blue Bossa-All Of Me-Autumn Leaves-Blue Monk-Footprints equivalent?

It is a bit overwhelming browsing throught the wealth of the material - I have 9 hrs or so of Hot 5s/7s.
Maybe 20hrs of Django. Few albums Lonnie Johnson. Few tracks by Eddie Lange. Maybe 20 tracks of Charlie Christian. Complete Oscar Aleman (I realize it it is more of a swing music than dixieland but the jam that I would to play at goes up to 1940s so swing is OK). I guess I put Hot 5s/7s on repeat and soak it in for few days. See how it reflects in my playing.

[neatomic]

louis armstrong the hot fives...essential dawn of it all

cheers

[docbop]

louis armstrong the hot fives...essential dawn of it all

cheers

Armstrong is essenctial to learn about playing and embellishing melodies. Then you can take some of his melodies and turn them into chord fills.

[neatomic]

+ louie A had great johnny st cyr on banjo..pre guitar era really..but his style was direct link to burgeoning guitar guys like freddie green & lonnie johnson


he used an extra large banjo body with a 6 string neck as well



cheers

[Rob MacKillop]

I highly recommend the book "Early Jazz and Swing Songs" by David Hamburger. You say you are a beginner - this book introduces you to 3-note chords, played on the 6th, 4th and 3rd strings, which is a great way to start strumming these songs. The book comes with a not-very inspiring, but useful CD of all the songs in the book. And it's really cheap. I use it with my students, including some near beginners. It would get you up and running.

[woland]

I highly recommend the book "Early Jazz and Swing Songs" by David Hamburger. You say you are a beginner - this book introduces you to 3-note chords, played on the 6th, 4th and 3rd strings, which is a great way to start strumming these songs. The book comes with a not-very inspiring, but useful CD of all the songs in the book. And it's really cheap. I use it with my students, including some near beginners. It would get you up and running.

Thanks - I really like David - he is a fellow Austinite too. I took blues guitar class years ago with him - during National Guitar Workshop. Seen him many times playing around town - great and true to the style player and teacher. I will check it out. I actually know OK how to comp - spent some time with Jim Ferguson books (Blues for Jazz Guitar - comping, soloing etc). But I will check David's book - every bit of his teaching materials I ever had was good.

[woland]

Armstrong is essenctial to learn about playing and embellishing melodies. Then you can take some of his melodies and turn them into chord fills.

Thanks! That is good idea to follow.

[woland]

+ louie A had great johnny st cyr on banjo..pre guitar era really..but his style was direct link to burgeoning guitar guys like freddie green & lonnie johnson


he used an extra large banjo body with a 6 string neck as well



cheers

Thanks! I was not aware of this guy. I always wanted to give tenor banjo a try but they are hard to find around here - but you can easily grab banjitar from GC (I do not believe in buying instruments sight unseen). Got Hot 5s/7s on repeat now ;-)

[Hep To The Jive]

Besides anything else, the most important thing is the feel. Forget about beefing up the chords, 7th, 6/9, dim7, m6, are pretty much all you need in general. But the feel is different thing, and the reason i love trad jazz a lot. The guitar is 'driving' the band, along with bass and drums, not playing off it. So subtle sparse comping is not gonna work. People dont dance to that s... you know! Lol. You probably figured it out already anywa.

Regarding the tunes, a good place to start a Django fakebook. Ive learned the hard way, sitting in on jams and and taking notice what tunes those guys playing. Still learning!

[neatomic]

good point hep..django came out of that hot five thing too..exactly..but of course incorporated all the parts into his style..so he was a bit louie, a bit st cyr and a bit johnny dodds...all rolled into one


cheers

[woland]

Besides anything else, the most important thing is the feel. Forget about beefing up the chords, 7th, 6/9, dim7, m6, are pretty much all you need in general. But the feel is different thing, and the reason i love trad jazz a lot. The guitar is 'driving' the band, along with bass and drums, not playing off it. So subtle sparse comping is not gonna work. People dont dance to that s... you know! Lol. You probably figured it out already anywa.

Regarding the tunes, a good place to start a Django fakebook. Ive learned the hard way, sitting in on jams and and taking notice what tunes those guys playing. Still learning!

I might have spoken imprecisely. When I look at more modern tunes they usually are "denser" as far as chord changes and I am a little more used to add some passing chords - or some upper register stuff, quartal harmony on modal tunes etc etc. With old timey stuff it can sit on Bb for two measures! and I noticed that other guitar player in the jam with nice trad-chops was adding some nicely moving chords. I guess it is a question of absorbing some cliches that are apropriate for style - maybe as simple as backcycling.
Thanks for Django suggestion - I have a book of Django's heads somewhere - need to find fakebook.

[christianm77]

Gypsy jazz repetoire is different to Trad rep, which itself is different to Swing rep...

I made a list of GJ rep for my students... I may do a Swing rep list at some point....

Above - get an acoustic guitar and learn to play clear straight fours, no upstrokes.

That's what they want you to do 99% of the time. 5 piece+ swing bands have pretty limited solo features for guitar. (The band I am in unusual in having lots of guitar solos.)

GJ jazz is obviously about the guitar more. The rhythm style is different. GJ is not early jazz. It is a modern development of Django's music. Related for sure, but not the same thing.

Check out chord soloists:

[christianm77]

Also the Firehouse is s**t.

Use your ears and ask other players re: changes. This music is very much an oral tradition.

The changes are simple. I use block chord harmony, line cliches and inversions to make things interesting. Also suspensions - 7 going to 6, 4 going to 3 etc.

Listen listen listen....

[christianm77]

Here's some videos on chord soloing I did a while back... Pretty rambling but people seem to like them....

[woland]

Also the Firehouse is s**t.

Use your ears and ask other players re: changes. This music is very much an oral tradition.

The changes are simple. I use block chord harmony, line cliches and inversions to make things interesting. Also suspensions - 7 going to 6, 4 going to 3 etc.

Listen listen listen....

Good to know - it seems that that trad jazz jam uses it extensively. I will talk to guitarist that plays in regular section there maybe I can get couple lessons from him - he seems to get the style down - plays amplified acoustic.

[rabbit]

Set the "Way-Back Machine" and go way, way back. Regardless of your interests or tastes now,
all of the ancient jazz is essential listening. For example, Lester Young said Frank Trumbauer was
his main man in the beginning; what is Trumbauer's most famous recording?

I'm talking about the likes of King Oliver, Jelly Roll Morton (genius!), Bix & Trumbauer in all of their
manifestations ( & w/P. Whiteman) and a HOST of others.

Yeah, I have a weakness for this stuff.

An aside: 45 years ago I threw the Los Angeles Times newspaper; the neighborhood
included Ray Charles, Nancy Wilson & Johnny St.Cyr's daughter.

[woland]

Gypsy jazz repetoire is different to Trad rep, which itself is different to Swing rep...

I made a list of GJ rep for my students... I may do a Swing rep list at some point....

Above - get an acoustic guitar and learn to play clear straight fours, no upstrokes.

Thanks for vids - always nice to learn new/old players.
Not sure I can go acoustic.
I have floating pickup archtop that has rather percussive tone - maybe that would do.
Last time I tried playing at that traditional jam I brought my Klein-like headless Tele 8-0
I looked up Van Eps (thanks for the pointer!) stuff and Rob McKillop created nice page
with tons of vids on it:
George Van Eps Method For Guitar | Rob MacKillop ~ Musician

Oh - and thanks for the list. Not sure why but Dark Eyes does not come for me too easily -
and it should I heard that tune so many times. Any solo to transcribe that you'd recommend?

[christianm77]

Thanks for vids - always nice to learn new/old players.
Not sure I can go acoustic.
I have floating pickup archtop that has rather percussive tone - maybe that would do.
Last time I tried playing at that traditional jam I brought my Klein-like headless Tele 8-0
I looked up Van Eps (thanks for the pointer!) stuff and Rob McKillop created nice page
with tons of vids on it:
George Van Eps Method For Guitar | Rob MacKillop ~ Musician

Oh - and thanks for the list. Not sure why but Dark Eyes does not come for me too easily -
and it should I heard that tune so many times. Any solo to transcribe that you'd recommend?

Crikey, you're lucky you made it out of there alive..... A headless Klein would probably not be my first choice of period axe ;-)

Acoustic is the only way to get the right rhythm sound. Electric always sounds a bit wrong for this type of stuff. You can use a standard electro to start off with.

Dark Eyes is weirdly difficult. It always gives me trouble for some reason.

Thanks for that...

[christianm77]

Good to know - it seems that that trad jazz jam uses it extensively. I will talk to guitarist that plays in regular section there maybe I can get couple lessons from him - he seems to get the style down - plays amplified acoustic.

Good plan.

The Firehouse is probably OK, I've just heard many people really moan about it. One thing you have to contend with is the fact that trad guys, swingers and GJ players all have their own ideas of the changes. Take, for example, Runnin' Wild. There are so many versions of the changes for this tune, but the two main variants are the American and European changes - which have a completely different last eight.

The originals 20s/30s changes are often a bit different to the ones in common use now. Depending on who you hang out with different versions of the changes will be in use. You are going to have to listen to records and use your ears. Which is what you should do anyway, for any style of jazz...

I might do a video on it actually (something with higher production values and tighter structuring...) It's the sort of thing I should post up because there's not many videos on this sort of stuff. I was surprised at the number of hits I got on those Van Eps videos given how lo fi they are...

It's hard to do a really good 10 min video. A real skill...

Maybe take a look at some of the Eddie Lang/Carl Kress duos - there's some transcriptions online. They are fun to play with a buddy..... The Lang/Johnson stuff is better known, but less chordy...

[woland]

Crikey, you're lucky you made it out of there alive..... A headless Klein would probably not be my first choice of period axe ;-)

Acoustic is the only way to get the right rhythm sound. Electric always sounds a bit wrong for this type of stuff. You can use a standard electro to start off with.

Dark Eyes is weirdly difficult. It always gives me trouble for some reason.

Thanks for that...

Well it is Texas - we are nice folks here - nobody' throwing beer bottles at the guitar player.
Actually it is not a Klein - more like Klein 3.0 - locally designed and build by a friend of mine - Chris Forshage:

And yes - it has fanned frets. And for a solid body it has very nice "acoustic" tinge to sound.

I grabbed Ayeroff book of Django solos. Should be here in couple of days. Maybe that will help with Dark Eyes.
The enclosures Roma players use make my had spin.

From your blog (Gypsy Jazz and Swing Guitar Learner's Blog) I grabbed couple level 1 tunes - Coquette seems approachable, Lady Be Good is good and found Swing 48 quite inspiring (at 120bpm at this point ;-) I need to start playing Dark Eyes every day - the leader at that jam assumes that since I am originally from Eastern Europe I can play Dark Eyes in my sleep ;-)

[christianm77]

Haha, yes when I say Swing 48 is a level 1 tune, I'm not really factoring in the tempo. I might need to rethink. Great tune though!

Glad that you found some helpful suggestions, though!

[woland]

Haha, yes when I say Swing 48 is a level 1 tune, I'm not really factoring in the tempo. I might need to rethink. Great tune though!

Glad that you found some helpful suggestions, though!

I think it is a good tune to get into vibe - fairly simple riff and nice harmony
(ending on F# against Gm6 - how delicious!). And after you play the melody
several times it starts driving you - dangerous rhythm... - just can't stop...

[dcharles]

I agree with all of what has been said so far. Especially about the feel. There seems to be a much stronger rhythmic pulse to earlier jazz, and it can be hard to "get" at first. Took me a while to appreciate it. At first this music sounded "stiff," but now I would call it more "driving" than later jazz.

I've kind of worked my way backwards through to this stuff as well, and I've absolutely fallen in love with pre bebop jazz. Its mostly all I do now. Be careful, it can be addicting!

[christianm77]

Incidentally - where is Mr Stout? He pops his head round these parts from time to time...

This dude if you don't know who I mean. Posts all kinds of useful stuff for your certified pre-war jazz nut... .

[woland]

Incidentally - where is Mr Stout? He pops his head round these parts from time to time...

This dude if you don't know who I mean. Posts all kinds of useful stuff for your certified pre-war jazz nut... .

Thanks - checking his website now.