Drawbacks to learning scale shapes

[MarkRhodes]

i think destiny said this before, but the concern isn't so much the shapes. It's more of playing the shape to get the sound instead of hearing the sound and expressing it through the shape that we seem to both gripe about.

When Herb Ellis talks about this, he emphasizes of being able to play whatever you hear in your head wherever you happen to be on the guitar.

One way to think of this is the first thing you need to learn to play chord melody: how to put each possible note on top of a chord. So for, say, C Major, you have to know how to put the C on top, the D, E, F, G, A, B, and C, and ideally a little more than that, as so many melodies span more than an octave. Example: if you start with C at the first fret of the B string, it's good to know how to put all those notes on top of a C chord up through the fifteenth fret on the high E string (G). (Putting altered notes on top comes later. First things first.) If you want those melody notes to be on the B or high E string, well, there are just a few basic shapes of major, minor, and dominant chords, and they recur over and over and over.

[KirkP]

I try to think of shapes not as grips but more like road maps or stepping stones to help me find any note or interval I want to hear (including chromatics). I want my playing to be "ear driven" much like singing, but having visual shapes and patterns helps navigate. I'm convinced that's how the players I admire think of them.

[Irez87]

Nope, but I am a SPED Teacher. I taught English for 2 years before that. Me fail English, that's unpossible!

[fumblefingers]

Jimmy loves the phrase "pitch collections". So he will say, "You have a C pitch collection here...." But I don't think he ever relates the fingerings to what we now call CAGED forms. One advantage to learning Jimmy's way as you don't have "root-itis" because even what one might call the Ionian shape starts on the major seventh, not the root.

Oh boy. I think this much ado about nothing. To wit:

1. A "pitch collection" is nothing more than a tonality, or a chord scale (heaven forbid). New terms for familiar concepts.

2. He needn't relate to "his" shapes to CAGED since the shapes preceded him. Further, as you say, the shapes preceded the term CAGED as well.

3. It's not "Ionian" if it starts on the leading tone (not major seventh BTW. we're talkin' scale degrees not intervals).

4. The take-away? This is all electric guitarist mumbo jumbo. How can you tell?

Take the music from the bottom note in the "shape' to the top and write it on a stave. What you will see is exactly what I described earlier - a two-octave mode extended by a major second or minor third. Just ask any other instrumentalist who isn't bedeviled by the six string maze.

[ChrisDowning]

Irez - Sounds like you are very well qualified to participate in these forums.

Fumbler - At least we only have to play six notes at a time and work from a single stave. I find watching a piano player reading two staves self-esteem challenging.

[Irez87]

Chris I dunno if that was sarcasm or not (hard to tell on the forum) but I'll take it or leave it. Whatever it is, I don't care. All good as long as something is learned in the end

Teaching, in general, has taught me to zero in on the most important concepts for my students. I needed to focus on those huge take aways that they NEEDED to learn before the class period is over, even if they had to hold their breaths to slow down and think of the concept before they rushed to lunch.

For music, the concept is music is an aural art, no matter what we are talking about. Musicians can talk and talk about technique till they are blue in the face, but it is the sounds that the listener cares about the most. Therefore, when we practice music, no matter what we are practicing, we should be concerned first and foremost with the way it sounds because the audience won't care about anything else (and if you record it, the listener won't care either).

So my concern with playing shapes, pitch collections, what have you, is that you should make a commitment in any way possible to hear the sound before you play it. Can I do this all the time? No. However, prehearing is the founding principal of all of my studies in music (as much as I can) and that's why ear training is the one aspect of my practice that I prioritize above all else. Do I practice technique? Yes. Do I practice learning tunes? Yes. But everything is framed in the context of my ear as much as possible.

With my ear training, I've found that I can prehear pitches and pitch collections that I couldn't before. This isn't so much because I've memorized that melodic phrase, it's more so because of the way I ear train (should I create another thread for this?) I sing a lot as well, and I am closer to hearing what the notes on the page sound like than I ever was before. Prehearing is a journey, not a "I'll start doing this tomorrow" concept.

And to be straight, Herb Ellis sounded great because he could hear his ideas musically, not because of the physical shapes he played out of.

[destinytot]

Chris I dunno if that was sarcasm or not (hard to tell on the forum) but I'll take it or leave it.

I wasn't going to say anything because I assume humour was intended, but I was infuriated by that person's last two remarks. I always find it disappointing to see mature adults alluding to Special Educational Needs in order to poke general fun, but the latest comment crossed a line.

But I recognise others' right to be impertinent or rude, provided I can turn aside to avoid being bothered it.

[princeplanet]

here's how I remembered the order of the CAGED positions:


1. Loc / Ion

2. Dor

3. Phyrg / Lyd

4. Mix

5. Aol


So, "Lock iron, door, fridge, lid, mix ale". I used to imagine making my own beer from my locked up fridge - I'd take off the:

Lock to the iron / door, / lift up the fridge lid, / and mix / the ale.....

Hey, worked for me .....


As for using these "shapes", if you're playing boppish lines, you're always playing around the shapes of the arps more so than the scalar shapes. I had a problem for a while relating 4 different chord inversion shapes to the 5 arps / scale shapes until I added a drop 3 shape to the 4 drop 2 shapes (and vice versa) for every chord. Then there were no "gaps" in the chord to arp to scale relationships.

As for the restrictions of relying on these shapes, I embrace them! I like the way that, whatever position I find myself in, the highest and lowest notes available make my lines sound different than in other positions. And anyway, it's not too difficult to learn to shift positions using "guide" fingers for the times when you hear notes beyond your current position.

Ultimately it's what comes out of your axe that is more important than how positional your playing is. Consider the trumpet. 3 fingers on 3 valves. That's one position! Didn't make Freddie Hubbard sound "shaped" ! ....

[MarkRhodes]

Take the music from the bottom note in the "shape' to the top and write it on a stave. What you will see is exactly what I described earlier - a two-octave mode extended by a major second or minor third. Just ask any other instrumentalist who isn't bedeviled by the six string maze.

I got that. But Jimmy doesn't think in terms of modes and he doesn't teach in terms of modes. (He also didn't learn in terms of modes.) What other people call this is their business, just as what he calls it is his business. He doesn't claim it is novel or any sort of advance; rather, he claims it helps students learn what he has to teach, and he's improved the playing of many students over the years. And of course, he is a master jazz guitarist himself.

[Irez87]

Did I say something offensive about SPED, destiny? Let me know, cause I am usually rallying against that. I was in SPED for my elementary school (speech) and my brother was in SPED for most of middle school and elemenary... so I take my job very seriously.

Maybe it was the "me fail english bit". Destiny, I was referring to myself and the poor grammar and spelling I have on these threads. Kinda makes me embarrassed, but I have to laugh at myself. I would never laugh at my kids or others for their struggles cause I certainly had and still have my own. I apologize if that was taken the wrong way

[destinytot]

Did I say something offensive about SPED, destiny? Let me know, cause I am usually rallying against that. I was in SPED for my elementary school (speech) and my brother was in SPED for most of middle school and elemenary... so I take my job very seriously.

Maybe it was the "me fail english bit". Destiny, I was referring to myself and the poor grammar and spelling I have on these threads. Kinda makes me embarrassed, but I have to laugh at myself. I would never laugh at my kids or others for their struggles cause I certainly had and still have my own. I apologize if that was taken the wrong way

That isn't at all what I was inferring; my comment was about the overtones of this remark:

Irez - Sounds like you are very well qualified to participate in these forums.

[matt.guitarteacher]

That's one position! Didn't make Freddie Hubbard sound "shaped" ! ....

Yeah. Basic mental reference points are like the black keys on the keyboard. Putting black keys between every white key wouldn't make the keyboard easier to play. It would make it harder.

I think there's a general statement to be made about not letting shapes be a crutch or whatever, but I wouldn't think you'd take it to too much of an extreme.

Really like this BTW:

here's how I remembered the order of the CAGED positions:
So, "Lock iron, door, fridge, lid, mix ale". I used to imagine making my own beer from my locked up fridge - I'd take off the:
Lock to the iron / door, / lift up the fridge lid, / and mix / the ale.....

and this:

I had a problem for a while relating 4 different chord inversion shapes to the 5 arps / scale shapes until I added a drop 3 shape to the 4 drop 2 shapes (and vice versa) for every chord. Then there were no "gaps" in the chord to arp to scale relationships.

[bobsguitars09]

Ok MarkR, I can see where you are coming from. I certainly started out learning shapes - but about thirty odd years ago I came across a series of three books long out of print now that showed a way of learning jazz chords that stuck with me ever since. Now I would 'build' a chord from understanding chord structure rather than going the 5000 chord shapes for guitar. Never done the 5000 route.

The books were by Pat McKee called "Jazz Harmonies - The System" and showed how chord tones change to form new chords based on voicings around four note shapes. For example he starts by showing a nut position C major chord - take off your fisrt finger and that dropped tone gives you C maj7, drop that tone again by putting your little finger on the Bb on the G string and put the first finger back on the 1st fret and you have C7. Then drop that tone again so you hold down the A on the G string and you have C6. It's really the start of learning which notes in the chords are what - 1st, 3rd, 5th etc.. Keep doing that with your CAGED chords and you have 5 chords, 4 versions x 12 positions = 120 chords. once you get the hang of how this all works you can adjust any simple chords to whatever is required. So no more shape learning beyond the basics.

Since these books are long out of print I am happy to email page copies of the beginning, say twenty pages, to anyone who wants to see what his system was all about. If someone had written something that was like this system + the Mickey Baker book approach it would have been a powerful way to learn. Jody Fisher goes someway down this route with his starting exercises with three string chords.

this would be great!! maybe just upload to the free boxnet so people can grab it?

https://www.box.com/

[fumblefingers]

I got that. But Jimmy doesn't think in terms of modes and he doesn't teach in terms of modes. (He also didn't learn in terms of modes.) What other people call this is their business, just as what he calls it is his business. He doesn't claim it is novel or any sort of advance; rather, he claims it helps students learn what he has to teach, and he's improved the playing of many students over the years. And of course, he is a master jazz guitarist himself.

I understand Mark. I'm sorry if I came off like a dick (maybe I should rephrase that?)

Anyway, this thread has moved from a simple OP regarding SCALE FINGERING PATTERNS and applied it to:

* arpeggios - (understandable), and
* chords - (a stretch - no pun intended)
* improvisation
* hearing


1. So firstly, let me just say that post #29 makes a lot of sense.

2. Secondarily, scale fingering patterns are NOT music, hearing, or improvisation. Improvising guitarists tend to conflate these topics - ad nauseam.

The best advice that i can give is:

1. do not overthink things too much,
2. learn your scales, chords, arpeggios - from simple to advanced,
3. practice them every day - (how much will vary, depending on the player's level of development)
4. do your tune practice - play the heads & comp as artistically as you can
5. do your improv practice - AND - play musical ideas, not fingering patterns


The reality? - Both improvisation and composed music will not only nudge you out of your standard fingering patterns, but will shove you out of them.

I'm sorry to say it, but if fingering patterns are the only wellspring of one's musical ideas, then they're probably going to make a lot of bad music. (And yes, I understand that beginning improvisers need to doodle-fart around just to get their feet wet, so it's OK for a while). The bottom line is that improvisation needs to come from musical ideas. This is only one reason why people constantly advise improvisers to LISTEN to a lot of jazz music.

A final note - if by "root-itus" you're referring to the beginning improviser's tendency to start many ideas from the root of each chord, and worse yet - from the 6th string, I would say this: a good teacher should advise that the player force himself to begin each phrase from the new chord's third, at least until they shake off the root-itus.

[Irez87]

Yes fumble, exartly. Snarf, snarf. I love playing those Segovia scales (we spoke of this before, gotta go through the Sor and that other guy... I have to look at your PM again) and those are ALL about fingerings and shapes. BUT, when we improvise, the fingerings, the shapes, they become improvised based on the SOUND you want to get.

James Chirillo (he got me started withe the Segovia scales) gave me a hint of this when I showed him a Howard Alden solo. I was fine with the transcibing bit, but finding a fingering, for guitar solos this is harder than horn solos (why is that?). He showed me how to do a sixteenth note triplet thing where there was a major 2nd between two adjacent strings. That's a fingering issue that is dictated by sound, not a scale fingering. That's why I stress the ear. The ear is the easier part (still freaking hard for me), finding out how it lays on the guitar is the challenge. Get good at one so you don't have to deal with the other as much. Hope that makes sense.

[fumblefingers]

no, have to admit you lost me a little bit there

[Irez87]

as I tell my students, which part? (My elbow hurts, humor me so I don't have to retype an entire paragraph)

[bako]

A musical impulse gives birth to the necessity of a technical solution.

A scale fingering (aka "shape") holds musical potential but will never be the
solution to every musical idea that invokes the scale tones.
Default fingerings provides a good foundation.
Cultivating flexibility to make adjustments on the fly is the next logical step.
Music can be like a living breathing organism or it can reminiscent of typing.
There are many factors that go into expressive execution,
left hand fingering choices are a piece of the puzzle.
Right hand articulation also has a big impact.
Different players, different musical visions and different solutions.
Whatever gets the job done.

[ChrisDowning]

Destiny and Irez - Absolutely no offence was intended with my remark about Irez87 being well qualified to cope with us all here on the forum. More a pop at our own behaviours sometimes on the forum. Its a British / American humour culture gap - if you have ever worked with British musicians you'll know how deprecating we can be in the pursuit of a joke - most of our attempts at ironic humour that would be funny in the UK, crash and burn in America.

I've taught a few children with special learning needs, so I know what a challenge it would be to teach like that every day. It was a joke about out behaviour, not about Irez or his job.

No sure what my second offending remark was - but the one about watching piano players reading two staves at once was a self deprecating remark about myself.

[ChrisDowning]

On the Pat McKee chord system, I'd rather just send out some PMs with attachments than publish copyright material out on the web - every page of music is copyright - so no copying is really the rule - however as it's out of print and it's just part of one book of three..... So if anyone want s a look at the first 20 pages or so, I'll send them as a 11.5 MB PDF attachment.

These occasionally come up on Amazon.com but rarely elsewhere. The current price seems to be around $40 a copy! But you have to find one first!

[MarkRhodes]

The reality? - Both improvisation and composed music will not only nudge you out of your standard fingering patterns, but will shove you out of them.

I think you'd like Carol Kaye. She thinks beginning students should not practice scales at all. (Actually, I think she wants all students to stop practicing scales, period.) She thinks in terms of chords. She assumes knowledge of the major scale and the triads and sevenths that come from it. But in all the books of hers that I have seen, she doesn't teach a single fingering pattern of the major scale, let alone the many other scales. She wants students to know where the chord tones are and work off of them. They are the "anchor" notes of lines. If you know that well, then when you face an altered chord, it's easy enough to just know where the altered tones are without thinking in terms of a scale at all.

For me, I learned some scale patterns when young and for good or ill, I know them and that's a done deal. Same goes for chord shapes I have learned. Even if I no longer use them, I still know them and can easily "see" them on guitar. (For example, if I see someone playing a guitar on TV or YouTube, I instantly recognize many chord shapes even if I don't use them much--or ever--anymore.) Frankly, the only reason I ever play scales (or scale patterns) is to work on picking technique.

[destinytot]

Destiny and Irez - Absolutely no offence was intended with my remark about Irez87 being well qualified to cope with us all here on the forum. More a pop at our own behaviours sometimes on the forum. Its a British / American humour culture gap - if you have ever worked with British musicians you'll know how deprecating we can be in the pursuit of a joke - most of our attempts at ironic humour that would be funny in the UK, crash and burn in America.

I've taught a few children with special learning needs, so I know what a challenge it would be to teach like that every day. It was a joke about out behaviour, not about Irez or his job.

No sure what my second offending remark was - but the one about watching piano players reading two staves at once was a self deprecating remark about myself.

Thanks.

[ChrisDowning]

Anyone know what ever happened to Pat McKee? I think he may have left playing and gone into advertising?

[fumblefingers]

Are there any drawbacks to only learning "shapes" for scales? he talks about going beond shapes in this video and it got me thinking.

yes.

there are SOME drawbacks to ONLY learning scale fingering patterns, which you have termed "shapes"

and, no.

there are no real drawbacks to learning scale fingering patterns, as long as they are practical and don't strain your hands.

[GuyBoden]

Eventually, with years and years of practice, all of the fingering patterns make one big pattern, so you can move up/down, diagonally, horizontally and vertically anywhere on the fretboard. You need to know the notes, don't just learn the pattern.

If you feel you're only learning patterns and not the notes, trying playing melodies in 3 different ways from the same note in the middle of the pattern.

Also, use multiple string skipping exercises to get way from patterns, but say every note name as you play them (slowly is best).