-
Lesson 43 in the M. Baker book.
I have come to understand in life that there is always an alternate way to say something. Be it in the spoken word, art, music whatever. But why is it that Mr. Baker chose to do just that in his Rhythm Changes lesson 43?
I've found that using other sources for reference has helped me get thru some of Mr. B's earlier lessons and did the same when it came to #43. This time all that has been accomplished is the understanding that Mr. B. was definitely following a different drummer and perhaps did not want any student to stray away from his particular way of saying things.
Yes this is a bit of a rant, but also I hope a bit of a heads up for those who will soon be here. It is also an invite for comment on those who have already been and passed on.
When referencing other sources to see how else it might be stated I notice that they are all fairly similar. Different but more or less of the same dialect. Mr. B. on the other hand is akin to being fluent in Russian and hearing someone say the same thing in Polish. Sounds very similar but it's off enough to make it difficult to follow.
His chord selections, especially in the "B" section of the piece leave me blank when trying to develop any sort of melody line that sounds like anything. His choice of C/D 13 variations in a descending line sounds fine alone but off when combined with his chord selections for the "A" and "A'" measures. (the Polish Part).
Has anyone else found a way to make sense of it all?
No offense to anyone of either the Russian or Polish heritage, Mr. Baker, or anyone who has made sense of Lesson 43 intended.
-
07-09-2015 01:52 PM
-
I went through book 1 - twice..as baker suggested..it helped me a lot in getting the basics down..the chapter on rhythm changes left me flat..I by passed the lesson in both of my takes of book 1...you can find many sources to study rhythm changes that are put in a more digestible format..I suggest you do so..you will not loose any of bakers intent with the remaining lessons
remember when baker wrote those books..he was almost the only game in town doing " learn jazz guitar" in that format..
im not saying his work is not valid or should not be used..the basic tools for jazz guitar are there..but today there are many books/vids/online study guides form pro guitarists (the list is long) who share the same basics in a more direct way
here is a link to some "rhythm changes" vids etc...
you tube "rythem changes" - Bing
-
About as hard to play as spell
Honestly, I always pause when writing rhythm.
I think MB had a sense of humour.
-
Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
About as hard to play as spell Honestly, I always pause when writing rhythm.
I think MB had a sense of humour.
agreed ... at least its in the ball park..so to speak..I have seen it start with a W...
-
Now, that's creative!
-
It's that Russian/Polish thing I mentioned, right? Originally Posted by wolflen
I'm just about at that point. I've been working with two other rt's with no problem. May put it on the back burner for a while. I have only so much time left in this world and I'd hate to have progress come to a halt here.
Can almost see it on my tombstone.
"Here lies Al B., gave it his best and died on 43"
-
Thanks for the heads up Al. I have been keeping my head down and just ploughing through, so it's good to know I may be hitting a brick wall here ...whenever I get there of course!
cheers
Rob
-
No problem. Let me know when you get close. I'll be happy to share what I've got if it helps. Originally Posted by w3stie
cheers.
-
Well what does he say? I've never done the Baker thing. The way I do rhythm changes is a little more complicated than most. I hope it's not that.
Last edited by henryrobinett; 07-10-2015 at 12:55 PM.
-
HR,
While trying to come to terms with MB's version of rhythm changes I went to a couple of other sources to see what other interpretations there might be in order to help with the filling in of the verse exercise as MB is asking for. The basic structure or chord arrangements that I found by several others, as well as the timing was quite a bit different than Mr. bakers version. For a beginner it made it tough to try and understand what he was looking for in terms of the verse fill ins.
The best analogy I could come up with was the concept of trying to understand a language that is very similar but just enough different that understanding of the idea trying to be expressed becomes difficult.
As I work more with what I assume is the generally accepted version of the tune Mr. B's version is starting to get a bit easier to deal with. I was hoping to hear how others worked out this version. Not so much what composition did they construct but rather what approach was taken.
One thing that really helped was when I stumbled upon a tutorial on Jazz blues major and minor scales. I knew them, just never had seen it written out with explanation. My background is primarily self taught with some pro instruction at various times.
Finding this forum has been a godsend. Lots of good people sharing info that would be hard to come across otherwise.
As to "what does he say" If I knew I'd not be here. but in the meant time I'll just keep listening till I see the light. ;-)
-
Yeah, but you're just talking generalities. I have no idea what difficulties or how strange it is. Give me something. Is it the chord sequence? I have no idea whether MB is saying something unconventional or not. You haven't said anything.
-
FWIW, I've thought that MB's chords for the Rhythm Changes sound pretty good when played over a backing track. His chord selections in the B section make sense to me; he uses a combination of dom13 chords and the ii-for-V subs that he uses all over the book for both chords and lines. You can solo over it just like you would any chained dominants.
Like Wolflen, I skip that lesson because I don't like his solo; usually I find his lines to be pretty tasty but that one just doesn't do it for me.
-
Henry,
Assuming Al Br. is talking about the A section and not the bridge as I don't see anything unusual about the bridge...
The 'Rhythm' changes in lesson 43 of Mickey's book:
||: Bbmaj6 / Gb7 / | F11 / Gb7 / | Bbmaj6 / Gb7 / | F11 / Gb7 / | Bbmaj7 / Gb7 / | F11 / Gb7 / | Bbmaj6 / Dbm7 / |
| Cm7 / F13b5b9 / | Bbmaj6 / Gb7 / | F11 / F13b9 :||
2nd time last 2 bars are | Bbmaj6 / F13b9 / | Bbmaj6 :||Last edited by fep; 07-21-2015 at 09:37 AM.
-
fep,
Yep, A, A' and B.
The bridge is a bit off to my ear but I'm getting used to it.
Thanks.
-
Whoa. Thanks. You're sure that's Gb7 and not G7 huh? That's nothing like I've ever played it.
-
It's not an unusual take, though Mickey doesn't do something most current teachers of rhythm changes do, which is to offer a version of "original rhythm" (I-vi-ii-V) so that the novice can internalize the basic form and then gradually learn, um, standard variations.
Jamey Aebersold's vol. 47, which has a rhythm changes track in each key with an original head (and two in Bb, one slow and one fast) is a great resource for "shedding" rhythm changes. It distinguishes between 'original rhythm' and (IIRC) 'jazz rhythm', which are many of the variations great jazz players have added to rhythm tunes over the years.
-
Gb7 is how it's written in the lesson. Franks notation is correct. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
-
That's pretty out there. It may have been a typo. Or if it's for real, it's pretty out. Originally Posted by Al Br.
-
It fits when played. It is a progression MB uses in previous lessons as well.
-
I mean it fits, but it's out. It's cool. Has that Coltrane changes feel to it. Altered progression.
-
Originally Posted by fep
10 Bars to the A section?
-
I haven't seen the Baker book in years but that progression's closer to two other RC variants: Jimmy Heath's "C.T.A." (Bb7-Ab7 | Gb7-F7) and Clifford Brown's "Brownie Speaks" (Bb6-Db7 | Gb7-B7 | Bb6-Db7 | Gb7-F7). The main difference is that the order of the b6 and V/bII chords are switched in the alternate bars. I agree with Henry - it's a pretty unconventional introduction to understanding the changes.
Reply With Quote
How is the Steve Howe 175?
Today, 05:54 PM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos