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As some of you may know, I spent a long time working on Benson picking. I have stopped that. (Don't ask. Not here, anyway.) This month (June) is a picking holiday--do whatever I feel like with whatever pick I want and just focus on enjoying the guitar. No agonies over picking. No picking exercises.
Mostly, I'm playing with a Dunlop 204 Jazztone pick, small and think. About the size of a Jazz III but blunt, not sharp. After two years of trying to make Benson picking work for me I wanted to try a more conventional grip. I wanted to get as non-Benson as I could, at least for this month. (No knock on Benson, of course, or Benson picking. But I found myself getting worse and enjoying the guitar less. I had to make a change, at least temporarily.)
I couldn't go straight back to the way I held the pick before because I wasn't sure what that was. Gradually I found myself doing something that seemed like the old me, which was having the tip of the pick point the same way as the tip of my index. That's what I used to do. But then, that's partly why I changed picking grips---I don't think that's the best way for me to go.
Also, I wondered where best to place the pick atop my index. I'd often experimented with having the pick closer to the top joint than the fingertip and sometimes that seemed grand but other times it was choppy and I couldn't figure out what caused the inconsistency.
Yesterday I found this lesson on the deft digits site (deftdigits.com) I found it interesting. If nothing else, it's about as far from Benson picking as one can get. So I'll give it a few days and see what I make of it. I'm on a picking holiday for another week, so I'm not playing picking exercises, just playing tunes and lines, some of my old songs, just enjoying myself, which is something I'd gotten away from.
Here's the article. Short with several pictures. Wondering if anyone here is doing it this way.
How to Hold a Guitar Pick | Deft Digits Guitar Lessons
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06-23-2015 10:10 AM
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One small flaw in that lesson: he doesn't mention the shoulder, which should be included as part of the mechanism for picking, whether with fingers or plectrum. It is especially important for different tonal qualities along the string length.
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That's exactly how Andreas Oberg grips the pick.
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For me,the article is too academic.
First ,when I"m playing single notes,I rest the pinky on the pickguard,never been able to pick without an anchor
point(with chords,no problem).
After 15 years with playing with the pick point,I turned it sideways and play with the shoulder,
it looks exactly like a cross between Metheny and van Ruller.
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That grip is my current default -- my teacher (who is an absolute monster picker) retrained me to this about a year ago. (Before that I used a reverse pick angle, with my three remaining fingers open but relaxed and lightly brushing the pickguard.)
I'm not entirely convinced it has made me a better picker, but it is somewhat liberating to not need a fingerrest for orientation. And I also suspect that my teacher would be a monster picker no matter what grip he used.
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I think that the grip the deft digits site shows is quite similar to how most gypsy players hold the pick, and most of those guys are absolute monsters.
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That grip, (in the still pics) is something I'd arrived at over the years, and when you get it right, it's very efficient. Feels great with a Jazztone #206.
I do feel that folding the fingers towards the palm gives a much firmer grip on the pick, and a very high degree of control.
One of the variables within it might be how far you allow the pick to protrude from the side of the thumb and the type of pick you use. If I try the same thing with a D'Andrea ProPlec #330 I find the index finger first knuckle joint occasionally making contact with the strings which is a no-no.
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Imo, the way you hold the pick is pretty unimportant. What is extremely important is understanding the mechanics of picking. I am willing to bet that 8/10 problems people run into is a result of "outside picking". Almost very great player I have seen (with the exception of MichaelAngelo, who is a pretty amazing alternate picker, but to get there he practiced the same lick up to a thousand times in a day... which doesn't leave much time for learning the 1000000 other things necessary to be a good jazz player) from Joe Pass to Yngwie, avoid the trap of outside picking. The thing is, many do it differently, but they all avoid it somehow.
To look at it another way. Worrying about alternate picking everything, is like worrying about tonguing every note you play in a sax solo. At a certain point it is impossible, and the closer you come to that point, the closer you get to diminishing returns (in other words, there are more important things to practice).
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I used to golf, and I went on a weekend outing with friends. One gentleman informed me that I cut my putts. I didn't sink another putt all weekend.
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Ha, I seem to be headed in the opposite direction! Life is wide....
Originally Posted by 3625
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I think the second is very important but I think the first is too. I will grant that there many great players hold the pick in different ways but I doubt a single one of them is indifferent about his grip. It's just that it's settled, second nature now. If you've got something working like gangbusters, don't mess with it. But if you're having problems (and not just outside picking), then something has to change. Maybe it's the way you place your arm on the guitar or where (or whether) you anchor or whether you use arm motion instead of wrist motion or how you place your shoulder. There's an old saying, "It all comes out in the wash," and here the "wash" is picking. Originally Posted by vintagelove
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Perhaps I can help you. What exactly is you main problem or thing you want to improve?
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One thing I've noticed already is that this is a very efficient grip. Another way of putting this is that my hand seems to move straight-up-and-down moreso than with other grips, where my hand tended to rotate into and then away from the string plane at times, causing great inconsistency.) I like a small pick with this (the Jazztone 204) and haven't tried it with a standard size pick. Originally Posted by pubylakeg
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IMO, the biggest problem most people have with a picking technique . . . . is over thinking their picking technique.
The picking hand needs absolute coordination with the fretting hand/fingers. Either you got it . . . or you "ain't got it" Either you can develop it if you "ain't got it" . . . or you can't develop it. The picking technique one chooses to torture one's self trying to learn will not improve that coordination (of course, this is IMO) if the person is just incapable of coordinating the left with the right. Some peole just can't cross the street and chew gum at the same time . . . as well as others can. We're all individual and unique.
If one get's very good at improving a certain picking technique, such as, let's say, The Benson Method . . . I believe that it's only because the practice and structure they've employed in getting that method under their fingers has done more to improve their coordination between lefty and righty . . than they might believe that it has to correct an incorrect or inefficient method they were previously using.
If Benson put just as much time into playing a *conventional* style of picking . . . he'd probably have a different sound due to the orientation of his pick and his pick attack. But, he'd still have the monster chops he currently has.
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Yep!! "Grip it and rip it!!" Originally Posted by Flyin' Brian
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Hey Mark yea, that's the basic approach my early teachers and even some of the teachers at Berklee,(i didn't take lessons) use to push. It works really well for most playing. Very neutral, very flat, and not percussive.
Works well on solid bodies and guitars set up more in that style. Or the flat approach etc...doesn't have the strength to play forcefully articulating style etc...
I like what vintagelove was getting as, about the way we hold the pick isn't as important as many other aspects of playing.
And I tend to agree... when you get to that point where what your trying to play won't happen because of your picking, I think you usually naturally adapt.
When i was a kid... I came up with about 10 different types of melodic lines, different styles of soloing. Fingerings, patterns, leaps, licks... and feels... and played around with holding the pick. It wasn't that complicated to see which method of holding the pick worked the best for different styles. This was my personal approach to how I wanted to hold the pick... I sill will alter my default pick and hand position to cover different styles, or even in the middle of a solo to get into a development of a melodic idea or relationship.
Long story short... I change how I pick, finger, hand position etc... all the time. All your really trying to come up with is a basic default reference that you always start with. I will say... I never go to the style from above. It's a personal thing, I just don't like it ... I know you seen some of my vids... I like to jump around and create way to many articulations for that style of holding the pick. But that's my personal choice, the style obviously will work great for a default. But as I said, as with almost everything.... you'll need other choices.Last edited by Reg; 06-24-2015 at 10:03 AM.
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Just wanted to add... a good way to see how well or what type of picking works.... is play somewhat higher action acoustic guitar... practice playing at different volumes... no amp. acoustically. will also help you see how thick and thin picks work.
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I believe this is false. George developed his picking method so he could keep up with faster tempos he couldn't handle the other way. Henry Johnson was in the same situation when George took him (HJ) under his (GB's) wing and taught him "Benson picking." Henry couldn't do what he does now the way he was playing before. If he could have, he wouldn't have changed. (And he was a gigging pro--albeit, a young one---when George taught him (HJ) his (GB's) way. Originally Posted by Patrick2
Jimmy Bruno---no Benson picker---said that he switched to economy picking because he simply couldn't play bop heads using strict alternate picking. He says making the change is difficult, especially for guys who have been playing for five-ten years, and he didn't even change his grip. So that's another vote for "wouldn't have the same chops the other way" (-and Jimmy's a monster picker, no question about it.)
It's interesting----to me, at least---that many Gypsy / manouche players are incredibly fast (and loud). I don't think you can get that with any old grip and approach, either.
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Thanks, Reg. That's interesting to hear---that this was the basic approach your early teachers taught. I hadn't heard this before and I'm in my 50s! Not that I think "I've heard it all" but I have searched out various picking approaches over the years and thought I had at least covered all the basic ones. Learn something every day! Originally Posted by Reg
I agree that it's good to vary things---that different circumstances call for different things. Heck, I mess around the thumb picks from time to time, play with just my fingers sometimes, and do hybrid picking for some country / blues / swampy things. I also do a thing sometimes where I hold the pick above the top knuckle so that the pick and my index finger's nail touch the string at the same time. It's a great bluesy effect. Further, if I play a few measures that way, the fingernail and pick will not coincide at the string on each note, just some, and I never know in advance which ones that will be. It may be the coolest thing I do, but it's just a now-and-then thing, not a default.
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Thank you for the offer but as I said earlier, I'm not trying to improve my picking this month. I spent two years working on Benson picking and I've declared a holiday from that. I'm just having fun this month. Doing my share of serious practice but no picking exercises, no Benson picking---you could say I'm not now in a committed relationship to any approach to picking and I don't want to be right now. ;o) Originally Posted by vintagelove
I chanced on this article and held the pick that way yesterday and today. I'm not pushing it, just wondering if others have experience with it. That it is very different from Benson picking makes it seem refreshing to me. I may not be doing this next week. Then again, I may do it the rest of my life. For now, I'm not worried about it. Just curious. I'm a curious guy.
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I can't play ANYTHING holding the pick like that.
For me, the only thing that improved my picking was holding it comfortably and practicing. Grip means very little to me, there's just too many good players out there who all have different approaches for me to believe there's a "better" way....just "better" for me...although, I did learn in that "other" thread that I hold the pick sort of "bensony" which is interesting, because i've held the pick that way naturally since i first picked up a guitar 25 years ago!
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You're obviously free to believe what ever you want. If you believe this is false, then in your mind and for you it is. But, ask yourself . . where did 2 years of practicing, studying, posting videos to Styles, discussing the matter here ad nausium, neglecting other practice requirement due to time devoted to *The Benson Method* get you . . . other than to such a point of frustration that you'd just chuck all that work and start seeking some other magic bullet.
If after two years of working diligently to grasp and master *The Benson Method* (I seriously dislike that term) you haven't conquered and mastered it . . . then it's definitly the wrong method for you. I'm glad to see you abandoning it. (Glad for you . . not for me.) Henry tried it, loved it, conquered it and mastered it. Good for him . . and any others for who it has worked.
Pat Martino and John Mclaughlin, as well as many other lightning fast alternate pickers didn't need to adapt to economy picking because they couldn't play bebop heads, as you stated that Jimmy Bruno had to. Jimmy more than likely adapted naturally to what worked best for him . . . and it wasn't just economy. Jimmy uses a whole lot of sweeps too. He simply told his right hand what he wanted it to do . . . and allowed it to accomplish that naturally.
Also, I very seriously doubt that GB would have been unable to keep up with and handle faster tempos while picking "the other way" as you put it, if he worked at it. Same with Henry Johnson. Zucker is quite a master picker and at tempos that can keep up with pretty much anyone. He seems to do quite well with the conventional method. Tal wasn't too damned slow either. One would need valium to try to analyze, critique and copy Tal's technique . . even himself.
As usual, Reg's council is, in my opinion, spot on. It's more than likely that I agree with Reg's approach because it's exactly how I practice and play. I do have a default and it usually starts and ends with that technique. But, there are times I'll grip the pick lightly . . and times when I'll hold it firmly. There are time when I'll alter the pick orientation from an approx 45 degree conventional to less or more of an angle. Ther are times, when I want to make a statement in an ascending scalar run, with as perfect consistency as possible in pick attack tone. I can only do that by folding the 3 remaining fingers on my picking hand . . to the the pad of that hand . . and free floating with absolutely no anchoring on or touching of the pick guard . . or anything else other than the pick on the strings. But, after such a run . . I immediatly revert to my default of keeping those 3 fingers open with the pinky and sometimes the pinky and ring finger in slight contact with the pick guard. I never realized any of this until these threads here caused me to start looking at and analyzing my own approach. But, it's an approach that I came upon naturally . . . much the same as I would assume Benson came upon his.
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[QUOTE=MarkRhodes;543937]Thank you for the offer but as I said earlier, I'm not trying to improve my picking this month. I spent two years working on Benson picking and I've declared a holiday from that. I'm just having fun this month.
You were posting this while I was . . . "pontificating and bloviating" . . . . which I love so dearly to do. So, to further my self indulgence . . . this above quoted comment will probably do more to improve your picking than anything else you could do.Doing my share of serious practice but no picking exercises, no Benson picking---you could say I'm not now in a committed relationship to any approach to picking and I don't want to be right now. ;o)
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The above bold faced line pretty much says it all in very few words. But . . . what fun is that . . when you can run on in long winded fashion purely for the enjoyment of hearing yourself speak??? Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Imo the best bang for the buck picking excercise is a simple three note per string e567 a567 etc, on the top string only play to the second note and come back down. This ends up as perfect 16th notes. This excercise helps overcome problems with outside picking. You then use the same excercise with economy picking, as well as pick/slur. Once you have the basic mechanics down, you apply it to the seven positions of the major scale. Then melodic minor etc.... Long story short that simple excercise can turn into a very deep excercise that covers almost every problem you will run into. There is also a four finger excercise I teach that covers the rest, but....
if you take that simple excercise which can be done watching tv, and do it for a year, I guarantee your picking will improve dramatically. The problem I fear with what you have been doing (bensen picking) is that it was addressing the mechanics, without addressing the actual cause of the problem, and how to solve it.
I know your on a rest, but give it a try while your watching tv and let me know what you think.
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