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^ yes ... yes yes yes ... yes.
Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
That's the stuff you need to figure out. Ever run those five positions in nothing but diatonic sixths, sevenths and octaves? Or run your diatonic scales in those intervals on one strings set at a time? You need to figure out specifically what you have trouble with and adjust accordingly. I'm not an expert but I can't think of a picking grip that would make those motions any easier than a different grip. It's about being relaxed and being consistent.
Do those scales in intervals and alternate for everything ... play with the most relaxed arm you possibly can. No metronome first. Just keep your arm like jelly. Then add the metronome in. If it's hard then stop and work on the string skipping just in open strings. Then do descending intervals all alternating. Then maybe try other picking patterns. Slow. Relaxed. Slow. Relaxed.
Try the arpeggios alternating very strictly and keep your arm like jelly. Then try economy picking them. Like jelly. Find the trouble spots and beat them to hell but stay relaxed the whole time. The biggest obstacle to speed and agility is tension. Bar none. Hands down. Tension. Not how you hold the pick. But how much tension is in your arm when you do. There wasn't a lot of overlap for me between classical technique and electric guitar but one thing I learned from classical guitar was how important it is to remain relaxed. Everything you do is easier when you can keep tension out. I also learned how specific you can get when you're practicing technique.
1. This head is hard.
2. This measure is the part that's getting me
3. It's these three notes
4. I think it's the string skipping
5. Maybe I'll practice just the open strings
6. Can I practice my scales with this technique?
7. Can I practice my arpeggios with this technique?
8. Maybe just the open strings again.
9. Can I play this part of the line all over the neck?
10. Can I play it when I put it back in context?
11. Can I play the whole head?
12. Crap this now this other measure got me ...
... repeat.
Have you ever tried the accenting, slurring, and staccato/legato things I described in the earlier post?
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06-26-2015 11:00 AM
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So what if you took what you liked about the Benson-ish style and kept at it, and just played what felt most comfortable instead of trying to hold it exactly a certain way?
Because you said you DID make progress that way. And that's good. What's not good was the posts from people telling you "ok, looks good, now lock your finger more and have a little more pick stick out."
No. Just no. Ot gets to a point where the little details are not helpful, they're distractions.
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Thanks, Reg. Maybe next month. I'm still on holiday! ;o) Originally Posted by Reg
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
I had the relaxed with the Benson grip. I don't think one can get more relaxed than that. I think my problem is more mechanical than pick-grip specific. That is, I think I rotate my hand so that it's sometimes closer to and other times further from the strings. That happened with the Benson grip too, which again, is very relaxed. It's consistent for most but wasn't for me. (It may be someday----I haven't sworn it off for good, just declared a month-long holiday from it. We'll see about next month, July, when we get there.)
For this grip, it is much more consistent. I think that is because of the anchoring with the palm on the bridge. (Though for me, with a tailpiece, it's on the strings but not on the bridge. I did anchor on the bridge of my electric guitar as a young fellow but I hadn't done that in a long time, certainly not with the Benson approach.) For the moment, it's good to know I can actually play consistently over long passages, such as an arp study in straight eighths over ATTYA. The next phase may be 'finding that same consistency without this particular anchor.' But that's a problem for another day.
As for the exercises you mentioned, no, I haven't tried them. Not lately, I mean. I remember Gambale was all about 3 notes per string (-an odd number, be it 1, 3, 5, or 7) for ascending or descending and then an even number of notes (2, usually, though 4 and 6 work as well) when changing directions. I did a lot of that in the early '80s (-whoa, has it been that long since his "Speed Picking" came out? I remember it came with a cassette.)
I'll give them a try again but not before the first of July. I really am avoiding all picking exercises this month. I'm working on a chord melody for "I'm In The Mood For Love", Aebersold's "Blues in All Keys" (volume 42, especially the ones in Bb, Db, and B), two Frank Vignola etudes over rhythm changes, and Carol Kaye's book on sightreading for guitar. Plus a few old songs of mine that I've felt like playing lately and tinkering with ("You're Over, Man," and "Save Money, Feel Good, Find Love, Make Peace").Last edited by MarkRhodes; 06-26-2015 at 11:38 AM.
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Ive always been if the mind of (excuse the pun) picking one style and sticking with it. Sure try new stuff and incorporate what you like, but don't copy someone if it dosent feel natural. Benson is a great player because he does his own thing. Wes was a great player cause he did his own thing. Same can be said of all the greats.
As long as your not doing harm by contorting your wrist or pulling with your fingers you're on the right track.
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I pretty much hold the pick that way since Kessell showed me in the 60's I sometimes open my fingers a bit more depends how I'm feeling at the time, I don't rest on the bridge at all. I haven't got a clue when I'm playing whether I'm alternate picking, sweep picking or any other picking I just play, a lot of the time I don't use a pick I use my thumb for up and down strokes I prefer the sound to a pick but depends on the mood and how fast I want to play. Funny thing is at the time I don't remember George Benson holding his pick differently but he was quite young then.
Last edited by Para; 06-26-2015 at 02:08 PM.
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I just got "Stick Control" so I can dig into this drum-rudiments-as-picking-exercises thing (thanks pkirk) and this is on the very first page:
"Practise at all times with relaxed muscles, stopping at the slightest feeling of tension. Remember, the rhythms in Stick Control are 'conditioners' They are designed to give control. Control begins in muscularly relaxed action."
That's from the original intro from the 1935 edition. No mention of how to hold the sticks
Last edited by pamosmusic; 06-27-2015 at 10:29 AM.
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The other day I re-watched the video of Barney and Herb doing the "Flintstones" theme and noticed Barney seemed to have a fist-y grip. When he showed you what he showed you, where was the pick exactly in relation to the thumb (which part of the thumb pressed against the pick) and the index? I really admire Barney's playing---he not only could play in many styles, he wrote some good tunes too. An all-around great. Originally Posted by Para
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The way I hold my pick is more in the style of Herb. To me it looks like this style and Herb's is very similar.
What are your thoughts on this, Mark?
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He showed me with the index finger slightly bent and the pick held with the ball of the thumb and the point of the pick more or less right angles to the thumb Mark but he opened his hand at times and his little finger stuck out, on slow tunes he used a looser grip and tightened it on fast ones, it was a long time ago Mark 50+ years my memory is not good these days, I was 16/17 years old then and a bit overawed at the time. Herb Ellis recomended holding the pick like you hold a hammer but not to tightly, I sometimes loosen my fingers and let them touch the scratchplate
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Thanks for that! I'm fascinated by both of those guys and I just loved the way they played. Love the idea of Herb's" 'hold the pick like you hold a hammer but not too tightly." Originally Posted by Para
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I haven't seen how you hold a pick. And as much as I've seen videos of Herb playing, I don't have (or recall) a definitive shot of how he holds it. I know he talked (in his instructional tape/DVD) about angling it and not picking every note, but I don't remember a close up of just how he gripped it. Originally Posted by edh
But as Para said in another post on this thread, Herb suggested (somewhere) gripping the pick like a hammer but not too tightly. That makes sense to me.
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So hold it like some other object that tou just pick up and use without thinking about it? If I were to guess I would say you probably took from that advice the opposite of what he meant. I don't think he wouldve advised a student to photograph themselves picking up a hammer, blow the photo up 20x, analyze the radius of the knuckles and measure the pressure of the index and thumb against the handle in pounds per square inch. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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06-28-2015, 10:59 AM #89destinytot GuestMy curiosity was piqued - and, boy, am I glad I had a look. Perfect articulation, just like... any other jazz guitarist who achieves perfect articulation on an electric archtop. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Bucky's articulation is kitchen-clean, too.
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I can't remember which video I saw it in but Herb Ellis said close your hand like your holding a hammer and the pick was laying on his index finger and held by his thumb, he said he has about a quarter of the pick sticking out he did say what size the pick was but I can't remember it wasn't very large and he said grip it tight but not to tight, if I can remember what the video was I'll post it.
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"So hold it like some other object that tou just pick up and use without thinking about it? If I were to guess I would say you probably took from that advice the opposite of what he meant. I don't think he wouldve advised a student to photograph themselves picking up a hammer, blow the photo up 20x, analyze the radius of the knuckles and measure the pressure of the index and thumb against the handle in pounds per square inch. "
A rather pointless post.
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Pointless? No. Laden with sarcasm? Perhaps.
I was just saying that while Mark sees that as a specific instruction on how to hold the pick ... I (and probably some others here) could see that as an affirmation of the "just hold it like you'd hold anything else" or "just hold it so it's comfortable" tack that Mark hates so much.
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Well, there's no chance of that. When I read that, I thought, "O, I know what he means." I think I do. It makes sense, though it's not at like Benson picking (-which is nothing like holding a hammer) and it's not the way most beginners were taught when I started out, which is also nothing like holding a hammer. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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O, I see what you're getting at. I'm not against comfort. I think most any grip will become comfortable if you keep at it. My complaint with "do whatever you're comfortable with" was that I was asking people who picked well what I might do to pick better. That is, I was "comfortable" with my current habit but it wasn't effective. So I didn't want something comfortable (-not that I was in pursuit of something UNcomfortable) but rather, something that worked. So being told "do whatever is comfortable" amounted to 'keep doing what you've been doing, even if it doesn't work.' I think that's poor advice. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
I think it makes much more sense to say, "you have to figure out what works for you and get used to it." If it's the first thing you tried, great, but if it's not, well, you have to ask yourself whether NOT changing for the sake of not changing is more important to you than finding something that works better for you. I unashamedly seek what works better for me. If it takes 25 changes over 50 years, well, I figure I'm closing in on it! ;o)Last edited by MarkRhodes; 06-28-2015 at 03:57 PM.
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That's sort of why I was asking what things you work on and how ... there are tons of exercises that you can work on specifically for pick control that have nothing to do with how you hold the pick. Sometimes answers from teachers can be very frustrating but the fact that loads of guys say "whatever your comfortable" lends itself to certain conclusions ... If it were me my reaction wouldn't be "arggghhhh again?" ... it'd be ... "okay ... so if the way I hold it doesn't really matter then how do I improve my pick control?"
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The way Kessell and Ellis pick is good enough for me, I don't think about when I'm playing I concentrate on the music, anyway I'm out of here.
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'hold like a hammer' is specific instruction... it describes the grip quite exactlyPointless? No. Laden with sarcasm? Perhaps.
I was just saying that while Mark sees that as a specific instruction on how to hold the pick ... I (and probably some others here) could see that as an affirmation of the "just hold it like you'd hold anything else" or "just hold it so it's comfortable" tack that Mark hates so much.
holding a hammer just comfortably does not mean using it effectively... though it can be both of course
for example I hold a pick more like I 'hold a pen' ... (it makes it more 'Benson-like and) and it's a big difference..
To me the biggest difference betwen Benson - picking and any traditional grip (Herb's or more close in a fist Bucky Pizzarelli - whatever) is the arm and wrist position...
Benson's grip makes me embrace guitar a bir from back side so the arm makes kind of arch... and mayb even e bit form down-side..
And traditional grip makes your arm and hand more diagonal in relation to strings, it's not embracing but more like laid on the guitar and it is more from upside...
From point of view of music and sound quality both grips could be excercised to be efficient I believe... though 'upside grip' seems to have naturally ability for heavy sound.. and 'downside' lighter jumping attack...
But for me the most crucial was that hand and wrist position... more natural, more confortable... but it could be an issue of individual phisiology also
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Here you go Mark 7.30 in on the video he talks about picking and how he does it.
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Funny you should mention that. I tried it. I thought it might work because I wrote so much as a youngster. Wrote (-wrote with a pencil and then a pen, I mean, Into my 20s and early 30s I wrote a lot of letters by hand, all my lyrics, many short stories, even chapters of terrible novels by hand. So when I encountered serious picking problems in my 20s, I thought maybe that grip would work for me because I didn't hold anything else as much as, or the way, I held a pen. But it didn't work at all. Not even close. Originally Posted by Jonah
As for the Benson grip, I find that comfortable too. I think it's the most relaxed grip I've ever used. It was better than what I had been doing before but it was not the end of the search for me.
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[QUOTE=Para;545218]Here you go Mark 7.30 in on the video he talks about picking and how he does it.
/QUOTE]
Thanks! Love to hear Herb play. I like the way he angles the pick but I have discovered that I don't want the pick in the same place he (and most everyone else) does, along the top third of the index. I prefer the pick back toward the knuckle.
It's an odd grip but it seems to be the only way I can pick (for the most part) up and down. If I hold the pick like Herb does, my hand rotates more than it moves up and down. That's great for tremolo picking but not (when I do it) for passages that cross all six strings.
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