One way to hold a guitar pick

[mr. beaumont]

I think this is all starting to sound similar to the Benson thing...or a "perfecting your golf swing" article...

[Reg]

Hey Mr B... yea but at least some are realizing that there isn't just one method, and that you need to become aware of most techniques...

and that it's not only how you hold the pick but also the organization of the attacks...

Long story short... your not the result of picking.... the picking is a result of what you want to play.

[mr. beaumont]

I sure do agree with that last sentence...which is why i cringe when i hear these techniques that say "when ascending you have to use an odd number of notes per string" or whatever. That's technique dictating what you play...not good.

as for the first part, i agree it's good to know of options/different approaches...but the internet has led to information overload, over analysis, and eventual analysis paralysis for many.

[Reg]

Mark... your last post about the author somewhat changing his view point... is the first sign.... don't go with a method taught when all it does is change... . You don't teach something unless you actually have it down and understand where it starts and ends.

That's one of the reasons I joined this forum... All the guitar teachers who don't understand what their trying to teach... and haven't put the time in to see or even think about where it ends up. I'm not trying to offend or implying anyone on this forum...

[Jonah]

I've never been satisfied with my picking. I think the main reason is that I'm largely self-taught and started writing strummy songs as a kid (-which I'm glad I did) but didn't think about technique at all. When I started thinking about it in my late teens, I had developed many bad habits. It's been a journey ever since. One thing I like about Benson picking is that it is (when done right) fluid and solid rhythmically. (The "shredders" who floored me when young don't sound good to me now at all. It sounds very mechanical. I don't like that kind of playing and don't want to sound like that. So, as Ira Gershiwn put it that foggy day, "what to do? What to do?"

Mark,

excuse me for insisting... but you did not say what exactly was bothering you... why were you not satisfied?
what makes you switch the methods?

I am just asking because I see that you are in general very much in different methods - not only in picking.. I am following your posts more or less and see that you go into this and that... you communicate with various teachers... and you get quite deeply into issues than I would not even probably notice etc.

I don't say it's bad of course.. but you know.. I think any method works... and quite quicklly...

maybe be it's fun for you... trying different methods could be fun.. why not?

And I watched some of your vids.. you play quite smoothe..

[christianm77]

Yeah, I think as long as you get a decent grip on the thing without tensing up it's all good.

I'm getting into 'thumb inside' Benson picking though. Mechanically as far as my wrist, arm and shoulder are concerned what I'm doing is the same as gypsy jazz picking. That said alternate is way easier for some reason. The main difference for me is the angle of the pick - it's a 45 degree angle to the string.

I'm using a 1.5mm Dunlop pick with the round end, like Sebastien Giniaux. This creates a lovely onset on the note - no 'click.' It's also good with a dunlop big stubby, so I suppose it'll work with anything. Sounds great on both acoustic and electric.

I can't see a reason why you couldn't use the same angle with a traditional pick grip, 'thumb outside' but I find this a bit more awkward. Still using trad grip on gigs, but this Benson thing is starting to click after a couple of weeks.

[MarkRhodes]

I think this is all starting to sound similar to the Benson thing...or a "perfecting your golf swing" article...

That's unfortunate, as the article in the OP has NOTHING to do with Benson picking and the thread is titled "One way to hold a guitar pick," not THE way or The Best Way. It's not even my way. I chanced on this and mentioned it, wondering if others had tried it and what they thought. I was surprised to hear from Reg that that's pretty much what he was shown when starting out.

[MarkRhodes]

Mark,

excuse me for insisting... but you did not say what exactly was bothering you... why were you not satisfied?
what makes you switch the methods?

It's not one thing. I remember when I started taking jazz lessons in my early 20s, my teacher was a first-rate player but he was no help at all with my picking. What bothered me was that I had picked up some technique books and worked seriously at them. One day it all seemed to flow and the next it was, well, no flow. He kept saying 'it takes time' and 'whatever you're comfortable with.' I told him I wasn't at all comfortable with this inconsistency and knew I needed to change something but he had no suggestions about that. He taught me a lot of other things but with picking, he was no help at all.

I tried all manner of things and none of them satisfied. It's not that I can't play at all but I can't play as well regularly as I do occasionally. So I know I have the capacity to do it but not the consistency to allow me to know it'll be there when needed. It's the single most frustrating aspect of playing guitar for me.

On the positive side, I was a creative kid and wrote a lot of songs. The first hundred or so stunk on ice but now I have dozens I feel good about and have for years. That's a great feeling. And I never had a lesson in writing songs---it didn't occur to me as kid this was something one could ask for help with. I just did it. Over and over. And got better at it. But picking didn't work the same way. (Well, I got better, of course, but my theme song about my picking is the old Muddy Waters thing, "I Ain't Ever Satisfied.")

I can't give you a short answer such as "my problem was X." I don't know what it was. THAT is the problem! ;o)

[christianm77]

More to the point of the OP. I actually checked out the link :-)

I have to say: I don't like this way of gripping the pick. I am familiar with it, and it is widely taught as 'correct technique.' There is no way this approach could have been in use before the development of amplification, so it is most likely a recent tradition.

However, it allows no scope for creating space between the wrist and the guitar. As a result, you will always be limited to using twisting and side to side motion for picking. It looks like a recipe for tension and poor biomechanics. A good player would be so despite this technique, not because of it.

I wouldn't teach it to my students.

The Benson and Gypsy jazz approaches both allow the use of a third axis, the 'knocking' movement, which is very mechanically efficient and allows for great speed and power.

EDIT: actually thinking about it, Gypsy picking doesn't really do this, but I think it makes much better use of wrist rotation due to the 'broken wrist angle.'

Someone using this technique would hit a plateau in terms of speed very quickly (unless they have a natural advantage), and always have issues with string skipping. Their sound would be weak on acoustic guitar.

Obviously, great players can have flawed techniques and so on, and still be better than someone who can play 8,000,000 notes per second just by being a better, more creative musician. But why teach bad technique, when good technique is well documented?

[Reg]

Hey Mark... breaks are always good. Show me some vids of your playing, or point me where to look. I bet I can help. Hopefully examples of where you have problems... not what you can already play. You can PM or what ever works for you...

[mr. beaumont]

That's unfortunate, as the article in the OP has NOTHING to do with Benson picking and the thread is titled "One way to hold a guitar pick," not THE way or The Best Way. It's not even my way. I chanced on this and mentioned it, wondering if others had tried it and what they thought. I was surprised to hear from Reg that that's pretty much what he was shown when starting out.

Well, what I was trying to say is it looks like another very detailed explanation of how to hold a pick that I really don't want to see you get hung up on again.

if you can think back to when you first picked up a guitar...how did you hold the pick intuitively, without anybody showing you? And yeah, I realize that's probably not something ingrained in your memory--certainly not in mine...but this month, when you are NOT thinking about picking, how do you hold it.

we're all built differently, different shapes of finger pads, size, our tendons that control our fingers are different...sometimes i think it's futile to try and hold the pick the same as anyone...

but i guess what i'm saying is...is this comfortable for you? And I know you said you weren't about to talk about it, but why the benson picking holiday? I thought you made good progress?

[pamosmusic]

However, it allows no scope for creating space between the wrist and the guitar. As a result, you will always be limited to using twisting and side to side motion for picking. It looks like a recipe for tension and poor biomechanics. A good player would be so despite this technique, not because of it.

When my students put their wrist on the bridge I do the angry old codger piano teach move and smack their hand away.

Anchoring your wrist is reallllllly bad for the health of your wrist and forearms

[fumblefingers]

Strangely,in the above video, neither McLaughlin nor Di Meola are using the technique as described by the OP.

i didn't really pay that much attention to the vid.

when I saw JM in '80 and again a few years later (still playing an Ovation, yuck) i noticed that he:

1. Anchored his right palm on the bridge, sometimes very firmly
2. Had his fingers in a relatively closed hand position (no fingers stretched out lengthwise)
3. Tended to turn his wrist down and to the right a bit when playing the higher pitched strings


Is that different from what the OP is advising?

[christianm77]

Well, what I was trying to say is it looks like another very detailed explanation of how to hold a pick that I really don't want to see you get hung up on again.

if you can think back to when you first picked up a guitar...how did you hold the pick intuitively, without anybody showing you? And yeah, I realize that's probably not something ingrained in your memory--certainly not in mine...but this month, when you are NOT thinking about picking, how do you hold it.

we're all built differently, different shapes of finger pads, size, our tendons that control our fingers are different...sometimes i think it's futile to try and hold the pick the same as anyone...

but i guess what i'm saying is...is this comfortable for you? And I know you said you weren't about to talk about it, but why the benson picking holiday? I thought you made good progress?

Adam Rogers says that he never studied Benson's picking. He just naturally started holding the pick that way.

That's how I held it. I didn't have any lessons in pick technique ever. I just did what came naturally - and that meant holding the pick like Benson. But I didn't do the inclining the pick thing...

Someone on a jazz course tried to get me into straight floating wrist pick perpendicular held in the fist type stuff (like in the OP link but without the anchoring) - couldn't be arsed with it. Much harder, and I could already play fast. Why shoot myself down like that?

The teacher in question, I realise now listening to their playing, wasn't a very good technician. Just as well I ignored the advice.

The first time I worked on picking was by myself, when I learned GJ picking, just to get the acoustic thing together. GJ guys all have monster chops, so I reckoned I was on safe ground.

For me there's a lot to be said for instinct, but this doesn't work for everyone. But everyone is different.

[christianm77]

When my students put their wrist on the bridge I do the angry old codger piano teach move and smack their hand away.

Anchoring your wrist is reallllllly bad for the health of your wrist and forearms

We should draw a distinction between that and palm muting though right?

I'm floating wrist to the max on acoustics, but you need the control of palm muting on electric beyond a certain volume level. It's common for electric players to plonk the heel of the hand just above the bridge pickup would and basically leave it there.

I don't think there's anything unhealthy there. You are using smaller movements for electric playing...

Julian Lage does this on his L5. I shake my head in despair but he still sounds fantastic.

[mr. beaumont]

There's a difference between "anchoring" and "ANCHORING" too...

[grahambop]

It's weird, but I don't think I've ever had any trouble with the pick or even thought about it much. I tend to think about what my left hand needs to do, and my picking hand just follows it.

I can remember when I started playing rock guitar, it took a while to get used to the pick (until then I played classical guitar) but that's all. At some point playing jazz, I did change the angle of my pick but that was in search of a better tone, not because I was having problems with it.

Generally I use alternate picking plus slurs/hammer ons. I tend to hold the pick with the minimum effort, I hate having too much tension in either hand. I think I rest the hand very lightly on the strings, probably to mute rather than to anchor. But if I need free movement e.g. for playing octaves or chord solos, then I just lift it a bit to be clear of the strings.

If I started thinking too much about how I pick, it would probably bugger it up totally!

I just went by feel and intuition - if it felt comfortable, it was good, if it didn't, then make tiny adjustments until it felt right.

[pamosmusic]

There's a difference between "anchoring" and "ANCHORING" too...

We should draw a distinction between that and palm muting though right?

Only sort of ... I'm with Mr. B here. There's a difference between anchoring occasionally for function or for an effect and anchoring all the time. There's also a difference between placing your hand somewhere and trying to push the bridge through the back of the guitar. Also ... technique with guitar is sooooo loosely defined. If you can move with agility and remain relaxed there's no wrong answer. Anchoring your wrist anywhere, anchoring your pinkie to the pickguard, whatever ... that is automatic tension. Some people can remain incredibly relaxed when they do that ... others can't (or don't realize that that's the important part).

[pamosmusic]

I told him I wasn't at all comfortable with this inconsistency and knew I needed to change something but he had no suggestions about that. He taught me a lot of other things but with picking, he was no help at all.

My question is this ... have you ever thought about changing what you practice with your pick rather than changing how you hold it?

What *specifically* doesn't work with your picking?

[Patrick2]

What I said was false was your claim that Henry Johnson could have played just as fast the conventional way as he does with Benson picking. The reason I said this is false is that when Henry met George, Henry had been playing professionally for several years. He wasn't using Benson picking. George taught him Benson picking (--I don't know that that's what George called it) and Henry has been doing THAT ever since. Henry didn't switch because this was no better---for him---than what he had been doing before. All the guys George has taught were already good but none of them could do what they can do after having been taught his approach to picking. This is part of jazz guitar history.

Yes . . I understand better now what you were referring to as being false.

A similar story is told many times on the Benson picking thread---which this is not: many guys who played with a conventional grip / approach hit a ceiling (for them) and it was due to frustration with that that they gave Benson picking a go. Now---for many, not all---their ceiling is higher. They will tell you that they can play faster this way than the other.

Never debated that for a single minute. There are also those who switched from conventional to Benson, couldn't make it work for them and switched back to conventional . . (way sooner that two years).

From the flip side, if any old way is just as good as any other, shouldn't everyone who has been picking 20+ years have awesome picking technique? Well, they don't. The majority don't. The overwhelming majority don't.

Are you implying that ALL Benson pickers have . . . "awesome" . . picking technique? Are you implying that everyone who has made the switch to Benson technique has benefited from it? Are you implying that everyone who has made the switch has absolutely and exactly cloned the way that GB picks? There are many derivatives of Benson's picking style. People seem to have taken something that has worked wonderfully for George, tried it and either cloned it . . or altered it slightly or radically to find their comfort level with it. That's great . . and that's the way it probably should have been done.

From the Benson thread, I remember very lengthy posts about; how much the pick should extend from the fingers, where it should sit on the thumb, should the thumb knuckle be bent, should it be locked, how perfectly the palm should face upward towards the players face, what kind of pick works best with this technique, what angle the pick should hit the strings at . . . and much more. It just seems like far more of a struggle than just improving upon what your most comfortable with would be.

Question; why do you think that after 2 years of laboring to make this work for you . . . you just couldn't get it?

But this is a side issue. THIS thread is about Joe Walker's article. The title of this thread is "One Way To Hold A Guitar Pick," not THE way or THE ONLY way, and it is nothing like Benson picking.

Yeah . . I agree it's not the Benson thread. And if it was me who derailed it for a while with implicating it with the Benson thread, my apologies. But . . I'll just back out of this one as I did the Benson thread. Cheers,

[christianm77]

Yes . . I understand better now what you were referring to as being false.



Never debated that for a single minute. There are also those who switched from conventional to Benson, couldn't make it work for them and switched back to conventional . . (way sooner that two years).



Are you implying that ALL Benson pickers have . . . "awesome" . . picking technique? Are you implying that everyone who has made the switch to Benson technique has benefited from it? Are you implying that everyone who has made the switch has absolutely and exactly cloned the way that GB picks? There are many derivatives of Benson's picking style. People seem to have taken something that has worked wonderfully for George, tried it and either cloned it . . or altered it slightly or radically to find their comfort level with it. That's great . . and that's the way it probably should have been done.

From the Benson thread, I remember very lengthy posts about; how much the pick should extend from the fingers, where it should sit on the thumb, should the thumb knuckle be bent, should it be locked, how perfectly the palm should face upward towards the players face, what kind of pick works best with this technique, what angle the pick should hit the strings at . . . and much more. It just seems like far more of a struggle than just improving upon what your most comfortable with would be.

Question; why do you think that after 2 years of laboring to make this work for you . . . you just couldn't get it?



Yeah . . I agree it's not the Benson thread. And if it was me who derailed it for a while with implicating it with the Benson thread, my apologies. But . . I'll just back out of this one as I did the Benson thread. Cheers,

TBH I think people will over analyse anything if given half a chance.

I think that if it doesn't feel intuitive within a few days of working with it, or that you can see how it will go, don't bother with it.

It isn't the way you hold the pick necessarily anyway, it's the way you use your arm and wrist muscles to achieve efficient healthy movement. Perhaps I was being a bit OTT in my condemnation of that link, but I really don't like the straight wrist thing. It might work for some people though. When I relax my GJ picking into something that works with electric my wrist goes pretty straight.

[pamosmusic]

The people I've seen (Benson included) who've blown me away with picking have one thing in common. They're so relaxed that doesn't seem possible for them to find a motion they can't make at any tempo. Julian Lage looks like he's barely holding the guitar. One guy up here comes to mind who plays faster than anyone I've ever seen ... Like ever. I don't have the faintest idea how he held the pick. Didn't even notice. I just remember thinking "damn - if my arm were that relaxed I don't know how Id find something I COULDNT play..."

jelly

[MarkRhodes]

More to the point of the OP. I actually checked out the link :-)

I have to say: I don't like this way of gripping the pick. I am familiar with it, and it is widely taught as 'correct technique.' There is no way this approach could have been in use before the development of amplification, so it is most likely a recent tradition.

Thanks for that! It is fascinating to me that this approach is widely taught, as it escaped my notice for decades and I was looking for help with my picking! I went out of my way to try different things, looked at every book I could find in a music shop to see if it had a section on pick grips. But I never saw this one. I asked people with good technique. (If I hear "whatever you're comfortable with" one more time...)

I did experiment with something like this a few times through the years---I tried everything I could think of---but not quite all the way.

For me, I'm not saying this is the way or great. I've messed with it for a couple days, that's all. But I was surprised that I hadn't heard of it before. Obviously others have, and that's good to know. Don't know how I missed it, but I'm sure it's not the first thing I've somehow overlooked in my life!

[MarkRhodes]

My question is this ... have you ever thought about changing what you practice with your pick rather than changing how you hold it?

What *specifically* doesn't work with your picking?

O sure. Heck, when I was a kid it was Johnny Winter licks and the like. Hendrix licks, Jeff Beck. A bit later, Ritchie Blackmore. I was a blues / rock guy, didn't play jazz at all. (I listened to some, but the jazz I liked didn't have guitar in it, so I never thought about playing that stuff on guitar. A lick here and there but that was it.) I was really just wanting to play licks faster---I wasn't playing scales or etudes, just riffs and solos mainly.

When I started taking jazz lessons, the scales came. Then technique books came. And I got better---anyone would who kept at it, I think--but the results were maddeningly inconsistent. In those days, I wrote songs and recorded them on a four-track player. One day I would play a solo chorus, hear it back and say, "Whoa, that's killing." But I couldn't duplicate it. Which is weird since I was the one who played it the first time! So I thought, "Why could I do this yesterday---and I DID do it; I'm listening to the playback---but not today?"

Now part of the answer to that is, "That's life." I understand that when we're improvising and all goes well, we pull off something that exceeds our normal range. But another part was, "HOWEVER I was playing when I did that is not the way I am playing right now---and I don't know what I was doing then!"

When I joined Jimmy Bruno's Guitar Workshop, it was all about his 'five fingerings' for awhile. They weren't a problem, really. (I couldn't play them as fast as Jimmy does, but I didn't have any particular trouble with them.) In general, two octave arpeggios and string-skipping were trouble spots. And troubling in the sense that they flowed one minute and jammed up the next. I think this has less to do with pick grip than with wrist / arm motion, though how one grips the picks influences those things too....

[MarkRhodes]

if you can think back to when you first picked up a guitar...how did you hold the pick intuitively, without anybody showing you? And yeah, I realize that's probably not something ingrained in your memory--certainly not in mine...but this month, when you are NOT thinking about picking, how do you hold it.

Good questions, Jeff. I don't recall how I first held a pick but since I was a big strummer then, I think I did what a lot of beginners do: hold the pick between the pad of the index and the thumb. Very natural motion but counterproductive when you get further down the road and want to do more than strum.

During this 'holiday' I found myself doing something I did much later on, which is to lay the pick (a Jazz III for years) along the top of the index so that it pointed the same way my finger pointed. One drawback to that is that you (-well, I, at least) would hit the string with the finger tip rather than the pick and that was not the aim. I've taken a break from Benson picking but I don't want to go back to that. I wanted to try something where the pick and finger tip are not pointing in the same direction. Hence, this. (And again, this is just something I'm doing to keep from going back to the Benson grip or the pick-shooting-out-of-the-index grip.) It's not a marriage. It's not even moving in. It's no-Benson-picking or picking exercises this month. And I've managed that. But I have to hold the pick somehow and I didn't want to revert to things that seemed undesirable. If I decide this is too, it won't be hard to shake because I've only done it for 2-3 days.