One way to hold a guitar pick

[pamosmusic]

Imo the best bang for the buck picking excercise is a simple three note per string e567 a567 etc, on the top string only play to the second note and come back down. This ends up as perfect 16th notes. This excercise helps overcome problems with outside picking. You then use the same excercise with economy picking, as well as pick/slur. Once you have the basic mechanics down, you apply it to the seven positions of the major scale. Then melodic minor etc.... Long story short that simple excercise can turn into a very deep excercise that covers almost every problem you will run into. There is also a four finger excercise I teach that covers the rest, but....

if you take that simple excercise which can be done watching tv, and do it for a year, I guarantee your picking will improve dramatically. The problem I fear with what you have been doing (bensen picking) is that it was addressing the mechanics, without addressing the actual cause of the problem, and how to solve it.

I know your on a rest, but give it a try while your watching tv and let me know what you think.

im really inclined to agree with the majority here that picking just needs to be relaxed and comfortable. I like this exercise ... So you're saying to take a three note pattern and work on it with economy picking, strict alternating, and various slur patterns? I really like things like that ... it's not some philosophy or magic picking solution. Just a "practice it all and let it fall where it will" kind of thing.

i played a lot of classical in my day so I was buddies with lots of sax, trumpet, violin etc players and the idea that you'd work on articulating every note or working on some such picking method is a little bizarre to me. I like ideas like this one ... More of a get ALL your chops up and what you do the most often and what your "style" is will come out in the wash when the technique gets combined with what you like to play. I just feel like you're not going I find a player who doesn't do all those things at some point or another. Benson is a machine gunner but he slurs too and economy picks as well. Just not often. Pat Metheny had the greasiest left hand on the planet but he obviously alternates and economy picks at various times too. Just less often.

for what it's worth I alternate and slur more than the economy picking but I do that too.

[vintagelove]

im really inclined to agree with the majority here that picking just needs to be relaxed and comfortable. I like this exercise ... So you're saying to take a three note pattern and work on it with economy picking, strict alternating, and various slur patterns? I really like things like that ... it's not some philosophy or magic picking solution. Just a "practice it all and let it fall where it will" kind of thing.

i played a lot of classical in my day so I was buddies with lots of sax, trumpet, violin etc players and the idea that you'd work on articulating every note or working on some such picking method is a little bizarre to me. I like ideas like this one ... More of a get ALL your chops up and what you do the most often and what your "style" is will come out in the wash when the technique gets combined with what you like to play. I just feel like you're not going I find a player who doesn't do all those things at some point or another. Benson is a machine gunner but he slurs too and economy picks as well. Just not often. Pat Metheny had the greasiest left hand on the planet but he obviously alternates and economy picks at various times too. Just less often.

for what it's worth I alternate and slur more than the economy picking but I do that too.

the thing about three note patterns, is it forces you to overcome outside picking. The second reason this works great, it rhythmically, it it perfect. In other words it gets you emphasizing, and articulating the first and last notes correctly and in time. Also when you transfer the excercise to scale positions, the highest note ends up being the third of the chord.

Once you can alternate pick it around 144 you should start working on the other two methods, or you can work all three together. However, I think most folks really struggle with the alternate picking, without understanding why. If you can get up to the high 160's, don't worry about going faster, just maintain. Though honestly after doing it for years, I really hate that machine gun sound that happens after 160 or so, 16th notes. So lately I have been using that slippery sound (Tim miller, holdsworth, etc).

Lastly, I worked through some of pat martinos stuff, I did not encounter a single instance of outside picking. As far as I can tell his lines are set up to avoid this as much as possible. Though I am sure he can do it when he needs to.


p.s. Economy picking is simply using a single pick stoke to play two notes on consecutive strings. If you pay attention, I bet most everyone here does it at times without even thinking about it.

[pkirk]

there's a great article in down beat this month on adapting drum rudiments to produce a plethora of picking exercises,
http://downbeat.com/digitaledition/2...art/DB1507.pdf
(pg 78)

[pamosmusic]

there's a great article in down beat this month on adapting drum rudiments to produce a plethora of picking exercises,
http://downbeat.com/digitaledition/2...art/DB1507.pdf
(pg 78)

Holy shit I love this. I just bought a book of drum rudiments ...

[MarkRhodes]

p.s. Economy picking is simply using a single pick stoke to play two notes on consecutive strings. If you pay attention, I bet most everyone here does it at times without even thinking about it.

That sounds like Frank Gambale's "speed picking". It's related to economy picking but requires that you use an odd-number of notes on a string when ascending or descending (and an even-number when you want to change directions).


Joe Pass claimed to always change strings with a downstroke, regardless of whether he was going to a higher or a lower string. (He didn't think this made him any quicker, of course. He said it gave his lines more definition.)

Jimmy Bruno teaches a downstroke when going to a higher string and an upstroke when going with a lower string.

Thus, it's not always two strings with the same stroke for these guys, though it is for Gambale.

Example: if you play a down stroke on the B string and switch to the G string, Jimmy would switch with an upstroke while Joe with a downstroke, but in neither case would consecutive notes on adjacent strings be played with a single string.

[MarkRhodes]

You're obviously free to believe what ever you want. If you believe this is false, then in your mind and for you it is. But, ask yourself . . where did 2 years of practicing, studying, posting videos to Styles, discussing the matter here ad nausium, neglecting other practice requirement due to time devoted to *The Benson Method* get you . . . other than to such a point of frustration that you'd just chuck all that work and start seeking some other magic bullet.

First, what I said was false had nothing to do with me. I thought the story of George Benson teaching Henry Johnson (among others) his way of picking was more generally known. Certainly Henry isn't hesitant to credit George for teaching him that. (And Henry started playing professionally when he was 14.)

I don't regret 2 years of working on Benson picking. Life is like this: you want something, you give it your all. You either get it or realize it's not going to work out for you and move along. I spent over four years in a seminary but didn't become a priest; I don't regret doing that either. I spent more than two years playing hard rock---which I don't even listen to anymore--and I don't regret that either. As the Spanish say, "life is wide." I figure all my experiences---I wrote god-awful songs in elementary school and used to perform 'Side 1' and 'Side 2' of Dylan's "Blood on the Tracks" for beer at Harry's Open Door (aka, Harry's Banana Farm)--contribute to what I do know. It's all connected. And valuable.

[pkirk]

Holy shit I love this. I just bought a book of drum rudiments ...

it's very cool, I've been toying with it for a couple weeks. I don't think I'll ever get the speed some of you guys have, but I think this gives a huge number of very focused right hand exercises: all for the price of one drum rudiments book! (Mark, make some room on your bookshelf for another one....)

he doesn't state it explicitly, but if you look at his "2 string exercises" you'll note that he has them set up so that it lines up with the "economy" picking conventions.

So e.g. a paradiddle RLRR LRLL (*R*ight and *L*eft hand drum stroke)


becomes DUDD UDUU ( *D*own and *U*p strokes on the guitar)

and then on 2 strings becomes (say the G and B strings) GGGB BBBG

[vintagelove]

That sounds like Frank Gambale's "speed picking". It's related to economy picking but requires that you use an odd-number of notes on a string when ascending or descending (and an even-number when you want to change directions).


Joe Pass claimed to always change strings with a downstroke, regardless of whether he was going to a higher or a lower string. (He didn't think this made him any quicker, of course. He said it gave his lines more definition.)

Jimmy Bruno teaches a downstroke when going to a higher string and an upstroke when going with a lower string.

Thus, it's not always two strings with the same stroke for these guys, though it is for Gambale.

Example: if you play a down stroke on the B string and switch to the G string, Jimmy would switch with an upstroke while Joe with a downstroke, but in neither case would consecutive notes on adjacent strings be played with a single string.

Here is where truly understand the mechanics of picking is very important.

Every example you posted, is actually doing the same thing, though using somewhat different methods. They are all avoiding outside picking.

Gambale, speed picking and economy picking are the same thing. You only need economy picking when you encounter groups of three. If you have a group of two, your simply use alternate picking. The result is avoiding outside picking.

Joe pass, used economy picking while ascending. When descending, he would either use two downstrokes, or at a fast tempo, he would use a pull off. The result is avoiding outside picking.

bruno, that is essentially the definition of avoiding outside picking.

in your last example, you are correct in a sense. Joe would be the only one who would do it differently (two downstrokes), but the reason is the same, to avoid outside picking. If we are being honest, they are all better pickers than joe, However Joe was able to make it work for him through the use of pull offs at higher tempos.

The important thing to understand is the reason why they all do this. When encountering groups of three, you can either economy pick, slur, or alternate pick, which will result in outside picking. It is also important to realize once you outside pick once, the "natural" direction of your picking can be interrupted. For instance, play three notes on e, then two notes on a and d..... That's awful right? Now at slower tempos it's not a big deal. However when things get fast it's a big problem.

I am a firm believer in conquering outside picking (within reason), hence the excercise I described in my last post. The truth is, if you got a late start you may never be able to outside pick past 16th notes at 160bpm. If I were starting over late in life, I would set my goal at 144 using strict alternate picking. This means overcoming outside picking. Whether or not you make it to 144 is not such a huge deal, what's huge is understanding where the problems arise, which that excercise will teach you.

after that (or perhaps simultaneously) I would explore both economy and pick/slur. Once you can see where the problems are, you will understand where these other techniques come into play. You can pick what works best for you.

how you hold the pick means very very little. Hell, didn't EVH hold it with his thumb and middle finger. The point is understanding why, then just do it.


Lastly, for all the alternate pickers who are ready to pounce on me. I spent years alternate picking. alternate picking should be the foundation everyone builds on. However, especially if someone gets a late start. There are simply lines and tempos that are impossible to alternate pick, mostly because they result in outside picking.

If you feel like your stuck in the mud when you pick, don't worry about how you put on you boots, figure out why you need them in the first place.

hope that helps!!!

[pamosmusic]

it's very cool, I've been toying with it for a couple weeks. I don't think I'll ever get the speed some of you guys have, but I think this gives a huge number of very focused right hand exercises: all for the price of one drum rudiments book! (Mark, make some room on your bookshelf for another one....)

he doesn't state it explicitly, but if you look at his "2 string exercises" you'll note that he has them set up so that it lines up with the "economy" picking conventions.

So e.g. a paradiddle RLRR LRLL (*R*ight and *L*eft hand drum stroke)


becomes DUDD UDUU ( *D*own and *U*p strokes on the guitar)

and then on 2 strings becomes (say the G and B strings) GGGB BBBG

Yea this is great stuff ... maybe this is something where we should put a pin in it and deal with it via private message but I'd love to see what you come up with and show you what I come up with (when I actually sit down with it).

[mr. beaumont]

The above bold faced line pretty much says it all in very few words. But . . . what fun is that . . when you can run on in long winded fashion purely for the enjoyment of hearing yourself speak???

wow, that's really how you took the rest of my post?

[Patrick2]

First, what I said was false had nothing to do with me. I thought the story of George Benson teaching Henry Johnson (among others) his way of picking was more generally known. Certainly Henry isn't hesitant to credit George for teaching him that. (And Henry started playing professionally when he was 14.)

I don't regret 2 years of working on Benson picking. Life is like this: you want something, you give it your all. You either get it or realize it's not going to work out for you and move along. I spent over four years in a seminary but didn't become a priest; I don't regret doing that either. I spent more than two years playing hard rock---which I don't even listen to anymore--and I don't regret that either. As the Spanish say, "life is wide." I figure all my experiences---I wrote god-awful songs in elementary school and used to perform 'Side 1' and 'Side 2' of Dylan's "Blood on the Tracks" for beer at Harry's Open Door (aka, Harry's Banana Farm)--contribute to what I do know. It's all connected. And valuable.

"I believe this is false" . . . is how you began post #22, your rebuttal to my post #18. How could it possibly have nothing to do with you?? But, be that as it may . . . it's just a general discussion about a very tired subject . . . picking technique. From talking with several people including some hear, who have studied guitar with very competent teachers . . . it seems that the teachers have almost never *taught* a specific style of picking. They seemed to prefer just letting the student fall into a comfort zone . . as I suspect Benson did. It also seems that many players have never "studied" a specific style of picking.

As I mentioned earlier . . . you're probably going to be best served by doing exactly what you said you were going to do . . . just practice your ass off . . (OOPS!! . . can I say ass?) . . without even thinking about how you're picking, slurring, playing, sweeping . . . your thoughts and lines from the strings into sound. Just grip it and rip it, man. You're well enough versed in strict alternate, economy, Benson, sweep, hybrid . . . that shit will just start flowing from your picking hand subconsciously . . . as it should. As soon as you start to think about it again . . you're gonna fall back into that . . "how should I do this???" . . quick sand.

[pamosmusic]

Here is where truly understand the mechanics of picking is very important.

Every example you posted, is actually doing the same thing, though using somewhat different methods. They are all avoiding outside picking.

Not a gotcha question but rather a serious one ... if we're trying to avoid outside picking we're trying to move to a high string with a down stroke and a lower string with an upstroke, correct? I don't really like the sound of loads of economy picking but I get the technical appeal ... where it makes less sense to me is with string skipping. Say you played a line that contained a leap of a major 7th - C on the G string up to B on the E string - how would you execute that?

Just curious ... for me it's much easier to execute with an alternate pick stroke. Two consecutive down strokes for me is a little weird because I feel like I have to lift up slightly to avoid hitting the B string which sort of negates the whole economy of motion thing. How do you feel about that?

[pamosmusic]

"As soon as you start to think about it again . . you're gonna fall back into that . . "how should I do this???" . . quick sand.

I find myself agreeing with this ... I think guitar players focus a little too much on the physical nature of playing and forget that every technique and every physical motion produces a sound on the instrument. What I will say is that I'd also be wary of just "letting it fly" too. What I think IS important, though, is focusing on the musical effects you want to achieve and practicing those and then allowing your hand to do what it needs to to make it happen.

@MarkRhodes ... I wonder if you've tried this instead - or rather if you'd be willing to try it:

Play all your scales very slowly ...

Play every note staccato
Play every note legato
Play the following pattern through the whole thing in sixteenths ... * - - - (short long long long)
Then this one .... - * - - (long short long long) ... then - - * - ... then - - - * ... then * - * -

... you get it.

Then do the same thing but vary your accents

Then do the same thing but with slurs (okay so you might have to switch to three notes per string or something to make the practice effective but you get it).

Let your picking do what it needs to to execute the articulations and just see what happens.



I think the problem is that we obsess over how to hold the damn pick without thinking about what we actually what the pick to do.

[vintagelove]

Not a gotcha question but rather a serious one ... if we're trying to avoid outside picking we're trying to move to a high string with a down stroke and a lower string with an upstroke, correct? I don't really like the sound of loads of economy picking but I get the technical appeal ... where it makes less sense to me is with string skipping. Say you played a line that contained a leap of a major 7th - C on the G string up to B on the E string - how would you execute that?

Just curious ... for me it's much easier to execute with an alternate pick stroke. Two consecutive down strokes for me is a little weird because I feel like I have to lift up slightly to avoid hitting the B string which sort of negates the whole economy of motion thing. How do you feel about that?

Yes, to the first question.

about the sound, remember that sound only happens when playing three notes on a string, and transitioning to the next string. Really the "problem" your hearing is lines that are based totally on consecutive three note per string patterns. Which you may or may not like. I don't mind them because it's one of the ways i try to get some of the textures/sheet of sound that other instruments can do, even if it's not as sophisticated as Oscar Peterson.

Instead of technical appeal, think technical application.

String skipping... I'll start by saying, a lot of players hybrid pick in these situations, Tim miller comes to mind. It would be great if someone would share their knowledge on the subject. Not really something I needed to think about, for your example, you could do it several ways, which is best because it really depends where your going to. Which is really why you need to be decent at everything. This isn't directed at anyone, just in general of course. Worrying about string skipping, if your struggling with picking, is like worrying about division when you don't quite get subtraction.

To your last point, whatever you put in the time on, and your comfortable with will always work best. That's why everybody does it a little different, but understanding where the speed bumps are is the first step to figuring out what works for you. any excercise that focuses on addressing those specific speed bumps, is going to get the most of your practice time, and therefore get incorporated into your improvisation/unconscious as fast as possible for the individual.

Ultimately, whatever you do enough you will get good at. But how much practice time do you want to devote to picking?

[pamosmusic]

Worrying about string skipping, if your struggling with picking, is like worrying about division when you don't quite get subtraction.

Well assume I at least know my times-tables up to 12

Just curious what you do ... I hadn't thought of the hybrid picking. Very cool!

I agree with just about everything else in that post but was just curious how you approached it since you seem to be a speed-demon (I remember you saying something about 16ths at 180 in an earlier thread - my ceiling is in the 120 - 135 range) - thanks for taking the time my friend!

[vintagelove]

Well assume I at least know my times-tables up to 12

Just curious what you do ... I hadn't thought of the hybrid picking. Very cool!

I agree with just about everything else in that post but was just curious how you approached it since you seem to be a speed-demon (I remember you saying something about 16ths at 180 in an earlier thread - my ceiling is in the 120 - 135 range) - thanks for taking the time my friend!

I could only do that speed on very specific things, and it's certainly not helping in situations like you mentioned, and it sounds terrible..... As far as improvisation on a tune goes, past 230 more and more things have to rely on tricks/licks.... Hard to be creative. I think that's pretty universal for guitar.

Really it's not about what you do good, it's what you struggle with that you need to work on. I will tell you this. Today I had a student, we have been working on that excercise for a little while. He is maybe fifteen. He has always had a relaxed picking hand. Anyway we just started keeping track with a metronome. It's always new when someone starts with a metronome. Last week he was at 100, this week more than 110. Now keep in mind he has been alternate picking since the beginning, about four years. He started economy picking maybe five months, and caught up to the same speed. The last two weeks we have looked at "pick/slur". When you encounter three notes on a string going to the next, you pick down, up, hammer. In two weeks he was able to play 140. When I stumbled upon the technique, in a weekend I could play faster than 20 years of alternate picking. And it sounded better than machine gunning everything to death. If you want to hit warp speed, you should seriously look into that technique.

[fumblefingers]

i think that Tuck's article sent a legion of guitar warriors on a path to find "Benson glory" (never mind that Tuck plays finger style, lol).

i think it's a boondoggle. sorry, too many other players burn away just fine. i say this as a GB fan, and one who used to view GB as "the" man.

[Moonray]

This discussion is circling round, but not saying what the issue really is:

Lead with the left hand ! .....

Martino says pretty much just that in his description of his LH and RH techniques.

[fumblefingers]

yeah, but most discussions "circle around" here.

regarding the OP:

in December of 1980 I saw John, Paco and Al perform their acoustic guitar trio concert two nights in a row, in Los Angeles*. both John and Al used this "closed fist" technique and both were of course, burning.

i watched them closely, and their technique made an indelible impression on me. i started using that technique myself after that. up until that point my right hand was anchoring on the pick guard like a wet cat clinging to a tree branch in a Houston flood, lol. i considered it a weakness after that.


* a couple of days before this, apparently.

[Jonah]

Hey Mark,

may I ask...

what was the original reason that you began to play Benson-picking? What moved you to it?

[pubylakeg]

regarding the OP:

in December of 1980 I saw John, Paco and Al perform their acoustic guitar trio concert two nights in a row, in Los Angeles*. both John and Al used this "closed fist" technique and both were of course, burning.

Strangely,in the above video, neither McLaughlin nor Di Meola are using the technique as described by the OP.

[Reg]

there's a great article in down beat this month on adapting drum rudiments to produce a plethora of picking exercises,
http://downbeat.com/digitaledition/2...art/DB1507.pdf
(pg 78)

Haha... yea I was using this same approach back in late 60's when I was getting all my defaults together...

Took the time to apply to scales, arpeggios and the comping thing... very cool to see. I think I've been pushing the drummers approach to working rhythm and picking since I joined this forum... nice to see.

It does work... and very well, there are somewhat very natural ways to pick and articulate. I always tend to think of natural as most effective way to pick a line rhythmically with least amount extra energy. And the tricky part is being aware of the entire line or phrase... not just the moment to moment aspect, which economy tends to do.

[MarkRhodes]

"I believe this is false" . . . is how you began post #22, your rebuttal to my post #18. How could it possibly have nothing to do with you?? But, be that as it may . . . it's just a general discussion about a very tired subject . . . picking technique. From talking with several people including some hear, who have studied guitar with very competent teachers . . . it seems that the teachers have almost never *taught* a specific style of picking. They seemed to prefer just letting the student fall into a comfort zone . . as I suspect Benson did. It also seems that many players have never "studied" a specific style of picking.

As I mentioned earlier . . . you're probably going to be best served by doing exactly what you said you were going to do . . . just practice your ass off . . (OOPS!! . . can I say ass?) . . without even thinking about how you're picking, slurring, playing, sweeping . . . your thoughts and lines from the strings into sound. Just grip it and rip it, man. You're well enough versed in strict alternate, economy, Benson, sweep, hybrid . . . that shit will just start flowing from your picking hand subconsciously . . . as it should. As soon as you start to think about it again . . you're gonna fall back into that . . "how should I do this???" . . quick sand.

What I said was false was your claim that Henry Johnson could have played just as fast the conventional way as he does with Benson picking. The reason I said this is false is that when Henry met George, Henry had been playing professionally for several years. He wasn't using Benson picking. George taught him Benson picking (--I don't know that that's what George called it) and Henry has been doing THAT ever since. Henry didn't switch because this was no better---for him---than what he had been doing before. All the guys George has taught were already good but none of them could do what they can do after having been taught his approach to picking. This is part of jazz guitar history.

A similar story is told many times on the Benson picking thread---which this is not: many guys who played with a conventional grip / approach hit a ceiling (for them) and it was due to frustration with that that they gave Benson picking a go. Now---for many, not all---their ceiling is higher. They will tell you that they can play faster this way than the other.

From the flip side, if any old way is just as good as any other, shouldn't everyone who has been picking 20+ years have awesome picking technique? Well, they don't. The majority don't. The overwhelming majority don't.

But this is a side issue. THIS thread is about Joe Walker's article. The title of this thread is "One Way To Hold A Guitar Pick," not THE way or THE ONLY way, and it is nothing like Benson picking.

[MarkRhodes]

Hey Mark,

may I ask...

what was the original reason that you began to play Benson-picking? What moved you to it?

I've never been satisfied with my picking. I think the main reason is that I'm largely self-taught and started writing strummy songs as a kid (-which I'm glad I did) but didn't think about technique at all. When I started thinking about it in my late teens, I had developed many bad habits. It's been a journey ever since. One thing I like about Benson picking is that it is (when done right) fluid and solid rhythmically. (The "shredders" who floored me when young don't sound good to me now at all. It sounds very mechanical. I don't like that kind of playing and don't want to sound like that. So, as Ira Gershiwn put it that foggy day, "what to do? What to do?"

[MarkRhodes]

Back to the article. I sent Joe Walker (the author) an email. I wanted clarification about the placement of the thumb and where on the thumb the pressure comes from. He wrote me back and said, in part, the following:

>>>> I try to line up all five of my distal (outermost) knuckles. That means the pick is between the pad side of the last thumb knuckle and the side of the last index knuckle. In practice, I've slowly migrated away from that since writing the article. I've become more accepting of leaving my other fingers open, brushing the pickguard. And the pressure from the thumb on the pick is coming more from the thumb pad than the knuckle. Still holding against the side of the index distal knuckle.<<<<


I found that clarifying. Perhaps others will too.