One way to hold a guitar pick

[Reg]

Imo the best bang for the buck picking excercise is a simple three note per string e567 a567 etc, on the top string only play to the second note and come back down. This ends up as perfect 16th notes. This excercise helps overcome problems with outside picking. You then use the same excercise with economy picking, as well as pick/slur. Once you have the basic mechanics down, you apply it to the seven positions of the major scale. Then melodic minor etc.... Long story short that simple excercise can turn into a very deep excercise that covers almost every problem you will run into. There is also a four finger excercise I teach that covers the rest, but....

if you take that simple excercise which can be done watching tv, and do it for a year, I guarantee your picking will improve dramatically. The problem I fear with what you have been doing (bensen picking) is that it was addressing the mechanics, without addressing the actual cause of the problem, and how to solve it.

I know your on a rest, but give it a try while your watching tv and let me know what you think.

They both seem to work...

[whiskey02]

Looking briefly at the OP's link, I'd say that the (huge)flaw in gripping a pick that way is that the thumb is too far forward. I find this eventually leads to the pick shifting out of position. Much better to place the tip of the thumb on the pick, opposite the index. Sometimes I even pull the thumb tip back so far that it only touches one edge of the pick; this seems to really help keep the pick in place. FWIW, I use a small 258 teardrop size pick.

[Vladan]

They both seem to work...

Yes, but since, oversimplified, he was talking about odd number of notes (3) per string is bad for speed due outside picking, and stressed how going only up to the 2nd on the last string would solve the problem, I figured he was saying playing only 2 on the last one is the way to go (as oposed to 3-567, or 5-56765).
If he plaayed 565 that would still be 3 notes per string, so nothing would actually change, so it could not be a solution to that problem (I still do not understand what it really is, the problem).

[vintagelove]

Just to be clear, are you talking 8th notes or 16ths?

I like the basic three-finger exercise, by the way. I'm doing it daily now. [To clarify for anyone who may have missed or forgotten Vintage's description earlier: we're playing three notes per string but the rhythm is in groups of four (sixteenth notes) or two (eighth notes) E: 567 A: 567 D: 567. And so on. When you reach the high E string: 56. Then B: 765 G: 765 and so on.] I'm doing this with economy picking: D U D D U D D U...

Hello again. I took a few minutes and made a few short clips of the excercises at the bpm I suggested.

3nps 120 and 160

4nps 144 and 200

these are in sixteenth notes. I also did a video of the three string excercise. You had it a little wrong. I'll explain in another post.


i don't have the ability to post the videos, but if you or anyone else pm's me their email, I'll send them over and you can post them. Thanks

[pkirk]

i don't have the ability to post the videos, but if you or anyone else pm's me their email, I'll send them over and you can post them. Thanks

VL: why not post to youtube? All it takes is an internet connection...

[Pocket Player]

Im alittle confused lol are we waiting on Reg's 4 finger patterns and vid's on the foundational stuff ? or has everyone moved on to eco picking?

[vintagelove]

Hey Mark... I found vintagelove's post... play three attacks from low E string to B string, one attack on high E string and back down... on middle note of 3 attack pattern...
567..low E string
567..A
567
567
567
5....highE

65...HighE
765..B
765
etc...

Hello sir, this is correct. Mark left out one note (on the high e we go 565, then come back down). The reason it is important is that the excercise is now perfect sixteenth notes, with the top and bottom notes being beat one.

This should be done with strict alternate picking to start, that conquers the problem of outside picking. You can also use the excercise for economy picking and pick/slur. Lastly the mechanics of this excercise is designed to apply to the three note system. You and I do the three note system a little different, but it's all the same stuff. On the last two strings I shift into the next position. You'll see it in the video.

as far as tempos, 4 notes tops out around 200. 3 notes at about 170. As you said, being at the top of these tempos isn't really important. Even if your 20 bpm slower, it's still fast. I just thought it is important for folks to know what the upper limits are so they don't waste their time practicing the impossible.

[vintagelove]

VL: why not post to youtube? All it takes is an internet connection...

I dont have a YouTube account, got to set one up one of these days.....

figured someone else could upload it easily.

[vintagelove]

I understood Vintagelove's exercise like this:

567.... 3 attacks
567.....3
567.....3
567.....3
567.....3
56 ......2
567.... 3 (or 765, whatever...)
567.....3
567.....3
567.....3
567.....3
____________
10x3+2 = 32 = 2x16

This is missing a note, on the high e 565.... 765 on the way down. Hope that helps.

[vintagelove]

Yes, but since, oversimplified, he was talking about odd number of notes (3) per string is bad for speed due outside picking, and stressed how going only up to the 2nd on the last string would solve the problem, I figured he was saying playing only 2 on the last one is the way to go (as oposed to 3-567, or 5-56765).
If he plaayed 565 that would still be 3 notes per string, so nothing would actually change, so it could not be a solution to that problem (I still do not understand what it really is, the problem).

Unfortunitly you had misunderstood a bit. The whole idea is to keep it three notes per string so you can overcome the outside picking pit@. You'll see it in the video. Thanks for looking at it though.

[Vladan]

Yes, I missunderstood the idea about exercise. Your ideaa is to practice supposedly problematic issue, by doing it over and over again.
I thought you were saying one should aavoid getting into trouble first place, by avoiding 3 plucks per string.

Actually, you are saying,

1. since 3 plucks per string are problematic, one should practice doing it untill at least half good.
2. Also, no matter how good you become in it, not only economy and sweeping will always be faaster, but ...
3. ... even the alternate with even number of plucks per string will be faaster because that way you will be
avoiding ... (exactly the point of my confussion) ... 3 plucks per string/ outside picking

Ok, now I think fully understand your position, I just do not find 3 notes/odd number.../outside ... to be any slower,
or more awkward than inside/ even number ... as long as alternate picking,
but that's probably due my slow speed, as I already presumed in one of my earlier posts in the thread.

Cool.

[vintagelove]

Yes, I missunderstood the idea about exercise. Your ideaa is to practice supposedly problematic issue, by doing it over and over again.
I thought you were saying one should aavoid getting into trouble first place, by avoiding 3 plucks per string.

Actually, you are saying,

1. since 3 plucks per string are problematic, one should practice doing it untill at least half good.
2. Also, no matter how good you become in it, not only economy and sweeping will always be faaster, but ...
3. ... even the alternate with even number of plucks per string will be faaster because that way you will be
avoiding ... (exactly the point of my confussion) ... 3 plucks per string/ outside picking

Ok, now I think fully understand your position, I just do not find 3 notes/odd number.../outside ... to be any slower,
or more awkward than inside/ even number ... as long as alternate picking,
but that's probably due my slow speed, as I already presumed in one of my earlier posts in the thread.

Cool.

Hey, we're almost there.

1 yes, that's the whole idea. Somewhere in the middle of the tempos I posted is what you want to shoot for. A little lower, ok, a little higher great!!!

2 no, I'm not saying economy is better for this situation. In fact alternate picking should be where someone starts. It's probably used most just due to the nature of the instrument. Now if someone really struggles with alternate picking, they should definitely look at economy picking. It is just another solution for the same problem. Three notes on a string ascending/descending to the next string.

Where I find sweeps are useful is when crossing multiple (3) strings at higher tempos. Sort of like the line Reg posted.

3 yes, if your playing an even number of notes on each string, you will cross to the next string with the same pick direction as you started with, Du dudu du...etc. because of that, those lines are physically easier to play fast.

what I'll do depends on the music, I'll probably mention it later. However these are excercises, not making music. The whole idea is you do the excercises until it becomes natural, then hopefully your able to do it while improving. To that point when your improvising, you need a little of everything.

hope that clears it up.

[MarkRhodes]

Hey Mark... sorry to ask so much BS... so when your playing the 3 note pattern back down... do you continue the DUD attack pattern or do you use UDU... as in the Bruno picking method.

Well, now I use at upstroke to ascend. (When you play only two notes on the high E, you'll be on an upstroke when you approach the B string.)

Now, that's what I'm doing now. I think Vintage suggests this be done in alternate picking, then with slurs, then with economy.

[MarkRhodes]

i don't have the ability to post the videos, but if you or anyone else pm's me their email, I'll send them over and you can post them. Thanks

I'll send you an email and then post a link to the video on this thread.

[fumblefingers]

Hey fumblefingers... I don't think I could tremolo 16th notes at 200, with out a little practice I don't think I could play any faster than 160, maybe after I'm warmed up 180, with practice, I don't really practice. But I would be able to play my typical BS at the tempo, not just the lick. Really that's like playing at 340+ right, no one rips off steady 16ths at those tempos. I just tried playing 16th at 200...way too much like work. That's past burnin tempos

If your able to play at 132, that's really like playing a tune at 260+... that's burnin. That's probable the tempo Bruno was playin Stitt's tune, and that felt like it was gettin up there.

I think it's a good thing to have those sessions where you push your limits and hang at tempos that are really above your playing skills... just to begin to develop the feel. And sometimes just pushing a lick a little will help bring your technique up a few levels of performance. When I make next Vid for my technique thread, I'll play lick faster than I should.

So most tunes are in 2 right, try playin a tune at half note 132, after you've played that arpeggio lick at 132, any differences.

To my failing eyes it looked like sixteenths , yep. I think Jack says he plays sixteenths at 178 but maybe I misremember.
i think that's faster than heck if it's all picked and if the figure is complex.

i can't play it clean at 132 but am confident that I could get there with work.

[vintagelove]

Well, now I use at upstroke to ascend. (When you play only two notes on the high E, you'll be on an upstroke when you approach the B string.)

Now, that's what I'm doing now. I think Vintage suggests this be done in alternate picking, then with slurs, then with economy.

Hi, I sent you the vids, thanks for that. No slurs in the exercise. Strictly alternate pick it (also, did you see the post above I mentioned your leaving out a note... You'll see it in the video).

It forces you to overcome the outside picking by making you do it in both directions.
if you can do it in the exercise, it will transfer into your improvisation. Thanks again!!!

[MarkRhodes]

(Another video is coming, one demonstrating the 3 nps exercise at a slow tempo and explaining it more.)

[Reg]

Now that's shreddin

Cool vintage, how about the variations... this must go somewhere , right. The reason I used the 4 note pattern as a kid was to come up all the possible fingering and picking possibilities... not to play the pattern, to prepare the hands to be able to play whatever. So there are only 6 possible variations... 1x2x3 = 6

1 2 3
1 3 2

2 3 1
2 1 3

3 1 2
3 2 1 and then across the strings... where the real picking difficulty starts

1 x x x x x
x 2 x x x x
x x 3 x x x

x 1 x x x x
x x 2 x x x
x x x 3 x x etc...and then with each of the other 5 patterns... and then from high E string down

x x x x x 1
x x x x 2 x
x x x 3 x x etc..

Anyway that why I decided on 4 note pattern... four fingers, thought about stretches... and even wider string gaps, but 4 strings seemed like more than I would run into, at least when I was young. And more in the jazz guitar direction.
1x2x3x4 = 24 possible patterns and crossing string patterns

The cross string work really helps with arpeggio, or lines in arpeggio style.

As impressive as it looks and sound, not my thing.... but wow... I can respect and appreciate your skills... anyway that's still only the beginning right.. basically one example of possible 6 and then the cross string applications.

Some how I don't think the flat pick style from the beginning post would be able to cover.

Remember early in the thread when we were talking about how the holding the pick thing... would basically fix it's self, or adapt to be able to perform at faster tempo tunes... or something in that direction...

Thanks for posting, nice to see playing to reference the name. post more etc... would dig watching.

[vintagelove]

Now that's shreddin

Cool vintage, how about the variations... this must go somewhere , right. The reason I used the 4 note pattern as a kid was to come up all the possible fingering and picking possibilities... not to play the pattern, to prepare the hands to be able to play whatever. So there are only 6 possible variations... 1x2x3 = 6

1 2 3
1 3 2

2 3 1
2 1 3

3 1 2
3 2 1 and then across the strings... where the real picking difficulty starts

1 x x x x x
x 2 x x x x
x x 3 x x x

x 1 x x x x
x x 2 x x x
x x x 3 x x etc...and then with each of the other 5 patterns... and then from high E string down

x x x x x 1
x x x x 2 x
x x x 3 x x etc..

Anyway that why I decided on 4 note pattern... four fingers, thought about stretches... and even wider string gaps, but 4 strings seemed like more than I would run into, at least when I was young. And more in the jazz guitar direction.
1x2x3x4 = 24 possible patterns and crossing string patterns

The cross string work really helps with arpeggio, or lines in arpeggio style.

As impressive as it looks and sound, not my thing.... but wow... I can respect and appreciate your skills... anyway that's still only the beginning right.. basically one example of possible 6 and then the cross string applications.

Some how I don't think the flat pick style from the beginning post would be able to cover.

Remember early in the thread when we were talking about how the holding the pick thing... would basically fix it's self, or adapt to be able to perform at faster tempo tunes... or something in that direction...

Thanks for posting, nice to see playing to reference the name. post more etc... would dig watching.

Thank you sir. One of the things I picked up from the thread was your variation of the four finger excercise where you are starting on different fingers. Great variation and did take a second to get under my fingers. I think it would work great with the three finger one as well.


To your point about holding the pick, it really depends what I'm playing, the sound I'm going for, the direction I'm coming or going, etc. that's why I'm not too picky about holding the pick a certain way, because I do it like three different ways. In the end, the music will always tell you when your doing it right.

Thanks again for watching.

[dortmundjazzguitar]

Too hard to quote on my phone so I'll just say thanks for the feedback Dortmund. Not surprised that I'm not 100% locked in on that lick even slow. The whole thing feels very uncomfortable to me, which is why I keep having trouble with those kinds of licks.

yw. i'd say, make this exercise your own. it's a good one. make something musical out of it to keep you interested. play it over just friends and use the last three notes F, Gb, G as a pickup. starting on the one is kind of corny. apply the construction of the exercise to all other chords of just friends. 220 is really not that fast. dont condition yourself to think it is.

[ecj]

yw. i'd say, make this exercise your own. it's a good one. make something musical out of it to keep you interested. play it over just friends and use the last three notes F, Gb, G as a pickup. starting on the one is kind of corny. apply the construction of the exercise to all other chords of just friends. 220 is really not that fast. dont condition yourself to think it is.

220 is only fast to me when I'm doing those specific motions. I can play over tunes way faster than that if I use other vocabulary.

[fumblefingers]

Hey ejc I believe fumble is thinking in 16th notes, or maybe I'm wrong. 200 + is off the charts.

Right, just looked at it again. sorry I was at work earlier.


So, it IS 16th notes on your Bbma7 to Bb-7 example.


I would love to see that demonstrated at 160, 180, 200. Obviously the arpeggios make it trickier than the 4nps and even 3nps.


cheers.

[Reg]

Hey ecj... as dortmund.... said make them yours. The fingerings are also about creating defaults... you need to decide what you use, I would 1st create those... them start playing around with how one might perform etc...

Here are a few more, basically I have fingering for all scales and arps etc... and then I have string grouping that I've created a collection of improv bag of tricks etc... anyway rather than just put notes together and create lines and melodic melodies from those single notes.... I make those notes Targets and use patterns to connect them... like the A going to the Ab, the maj7 going to a b7th and I use the lick as a default filler or type of embellishment of the A to Ab... here are some basic examples ... just think of these examples and create the rest, other scales, arps etc...and the basic reference picking and fingerings are default, at least as my reference... I can adjust as I choose...

[MarkRhodes]

Hi Mark. That should read #298.

You're right! Thanks for catching that. I thought I double-checked it but obviously I made a mistake. Mea culpa!

[dortmundjazzguitar]

220 is only fast to me when I'm doing those specific motions. I can play over tunes way faster than that if I use other vocabulary.

i understand. that's why i suggested some alternative left- and right-hand strategies. as you've pointed out we do not always have the luxury to play what we find easiest. it's very common in real-life to be in a situation where you have to reproduce lines like this within a reasonable time.

here's the question: which strategies would *you* employ if your life depended on you being able to play this line at 240 within two weeks? how would your approach change?