-
Having asked similar questions as the OP in the past, I can empathise with Jonzo's inquisitiveness, after all, classical pedagogy has been around long enough that certain "techniques" in learning have proved more efficient than others. Heck, there's even "modern" revolutionary methods like Suzuki etc.
But as I came to realise, there is no such "one size fits all" pedagogy for Jazz, not only has it not been around long enough to codify any time honoured methods, you also have to deal with the fact that Jazz is a more complex, ever changing multi faceted beast. The improvisation aspect alone makes it impossible to teach any one specific method, as ultimately every good improvisor designs one's own method, peculiar to his/her tastes. This is a good thing!
Sure you could find a teacher that can put you on a strict training regime that may help you emulate their own biased perspective in a comparatively shorter time, but that is lame in my view. Now I know that some like to be spoon fed from a Berklee, or even a Bruno/Conti type approach, but you miss the fun and reward of "rolling your own" style...
-
06-02-2015 11:04 AM
-
I'm going to try it. An experiment, of sorts. Gonna pick a tune I've never played, a tricky one, and spend focused practice time on just a micro segement, like that, for some time each day (my practice time fluctuates so I can't commit to a certain amount of time, but I will try and actually log it), growing to the whole tune at the end of the month.
Any suggestions on a tune? Something modern, maybe with some non-functional harmonic stuff. I'm thinking "Pee Wee," since I mentioned it in the thread going on now about CST...
-
A few more comments... I don't practice... almost never have. I did as a kid make decisions on the physical BS... how to play guitar... most of the other instruments already have these choices figured out... I've posted all my BS, I developed my fingerings and fretboard practice... my approach while still a kid... Still took lots of time and practice up to end of High School.
I then became aware of two basic approaches to playing, I was already playing gigs, rock or pop and jazz. The two approaches were,
1) the standard, learn tunes yada yada, learn from the masters... basically trial and error and lots of memorization, eventually the theory thing somewhat becomes understandable... you throw shit at walls and keep what sticks.
2) the other approach was to understand what music was, how it worked and could work. Still had to get the very physical aspects of playing the instrument together... but the approach was to play music from the approach of understanding the music first... then perform using you musicianship skills etc...
It's worked well for me and many other pros I know personally, but not near as common as the other standard approach.
The advantage is I can look at a chart and probably perform the music better than most my 1st time looking at chart.
There is nothing like being able to just play with out reading through a charts etc... but really I generally only need to read the chart the first time through.... there are just only so many tunes etc... I can generally do the same thing with my ears, no charts, but it's the same thing... I just create a chart in my head...
The other thing, I've played millions of gigs etc... I already know most of the tunes.
But if your generally lazy.... my approach would work great... I've gone through long periods of time where I haven't played... and generally only need a few tunes or maybe the 1st set to get chops back. The musical understanding part... that old thinking BS thing doesn't go away... And since my physical approach to the fretboard is so logically organized, at least for me personally... I don't forget fingering etc...they are default.
I played a gig last night where I had to read charts most of the night... lots of original tunes. Fake like I've been playing them forever...
There is always the being in the moment thing, locking in the groove, all the magic BS, the music reaching Godly levels etc... personally all those aspects are making music, that's what we're suppose to do. You need to understand what makes music reach that level and be able to repeat...
I still can't see how anyone would not need to put in way too much time just to get to the stage where your don't need to practice or gig... It would also need to reflect what your playing or want to play...
Playing your choice of music or others... my goals were very long term.
-
So if you develop the ability to recognize tunes, in the same way you recognize a chord, or a short melodic lick. That 30 day approach may become a lot shorter. Most recognize 12 bar blues, maybe bop changes... become aware of Form and standard harmonic practice and complicated tunes become just another Blues tune.
The same thing with heads, although I admit I forget heads... even more so the names of tunes... oh yea which tune is that and what key etc...
I remember new tunes much quicker when I understand the form and harmonic movement etc... I generally memorize melodies with target notes in relationship to chords. One of the disadvantages of being a rhythm section player... the instrument...
-
Yeah, that's why I wanted to pick something that used an uncommon form.
The first thing I usually look for in a tune in "form within the form," if that makes sense--common movements, etc.
I don't really know what this approach would net, but since I'm not playing for a living, I can afford to take on long experiments for the hell of it.
-
If you don't know it, I'd suggest "Heyoke" by Kenny Wheeler, a great tune originally recorded in "Gnu High" with D.Holland, DeJohnette and K. Jarret.
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
You can find music and chords in the Jazz LTD fakebook.
-
Very familiar with the tune--love it. Not familiar with the Jazz LTD fakebook, though.
-
I could do "Steps," I know it, but I always like looking for new ways to dissect it...
-
Do you actually play through full tunes, yet? Originally Posted by Jonzo
You brought up this system before, and my theory was that it would only get you so far. I think playing a whole tune is a skill that includes those little blocks, but isn't encompassed by it.
If memory serves, that was more than a year ago. How has it panned out?
-
All true. And then you could jump in your time machine, set the timing dial to minus 50, and find a place that would appreciate hearing those tunes. Originally Posted by dasein
I guess that's my little sarcastic contribution. Just trying to follow my leader, the inimitable Cosmic Gumbo.
Last edited by fumblefingers; 06-02-2015 at 07:55 PM.
-
Just thought I'd add that this is basically how Fareed Haque's bebop course on True Fire works. And it's awesome. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
-
Yes, it works fine. Eventually it builds up to a card for playing the whole tune. Originally Posted by ecj
If you really are setting out to learn a tune with unfamiliar chords--learning chords through tunes as so many like to preach--what better way is there? Would you just keep plowing through the tune over and over? You need some kind of system to help you focus on what is hard. This works for me. Everyone says to break big goals into small tasks, and focus the most time on the hardest tasks. That's exactly what I do. I am systematic about it, while others probably do it intuitively. But cards seem simple and pragmatic to me.
But this is just one example. If I am learning a new tune, with complicated chords, on string sets I haven't mastered, then I would break it down to chord pairs at first. If I am using familiar voicings for familiar chords, the cards might immediately start as phrases. You do what is appropriate to your level.Last edited by Jonzo; 06-02-2015 at 10:28 PM.
-
Whenever I hear the Jazz v. Classical pedagogy comparison, I think about how many years the Classical pedagogy has been developing. I understand the fundamental differences, but I think it is likely that we will develop better methods for teaching people to play any notes that they can hear or think. This is not Jazz per se, but based on some other recent threads, no one agrees on what Jazz is anyway. Originally Posted by princeplanet
If you have the ability to make whatever sounds you hear or imagine, the rest is just exploring. To me, this is jazz.
We will probably have direct to brain methods of learning in a lot of our lifetimes.Last edited by Jonzo; 06-02-2015 at 10:47 PM.
-
The way I memorize the chords is by simply playing it and having fun while doing so. First, I look at the progression and organize (chunk) the tune into logical sections (or phrases) which usually amounts to a very small number (3-4 typically). Remembering 3-4 things is less than remembering a phone number.
After I get each chunk of the tune together (chord wise) I play each chunk separately a couple of times. Once I get that together, I play the whole tune. At the stage I'm at it usually doesn't take me that long if it is a song that has a familiar structure. The speed at which you are able to do this all depends on where you're at in your guitar journey. The more you keep playing the easier it gets.
-
I'm unfamiliar with that course. Please say a bit more about it. Originally Posted by Jehu
-
Chunks of it are on youtube.. I have to admit that he seems to have a good approach.. I will probably go through it later this year.. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
this was entertaining lol..
Last edited by SamBooka; 06-03-2015 at 10:39 AM.
-
Cool. Fareed's a badass player...and a really nice guy, if you meet him. Originally Posted by Jehu
-
Yea... here we go, start with roots.. then guide tones and then eventually you get to the top note and actually playing a melody with the top note that actually implies the root and guide tones.
So what is the learning approach.... how you learn to play. Are you memorizing bits and pieces of whatever your trying to learn and then use those bits and pieces to play. And hope that in the end everything falls into place and your able to play through a tune you don't know... I hate analogies but.... learn a bunch of letters and some examples of combining letters and then maybe you'll be able to spell. Learn a bunch of words and possible combinations and then be able to speak about a topic.
Or golf learn how to hit a bunch of shots on the range and then be able to play the game... score.
Maybe... after a lot of years. I still don't believe you'll be able to play what you don't know. And generally with that approach... you know very little about what your trying to do.
So maybe... your trying to learn how to play Jazz tunes... trying to learn how to comp. Maybe have your comping imply the changes, relate to the melody and create a feel that works with the tune.
I'm interested... what are you trying to learn how to do. Think about it, don't just remember the one liners or what all the non experts say. WHAT ARE YOU REALLY TRYING TO DO?
Where does this end up... where would you like it to end up.
I get it...Jonzo want's to be able to play what he wants with the least amount of practice time... but many players enjoy practice... but sill most most have a point, a reason why they're doing something... even if they're just on auto...
-
I took this course - Fareed Haque's Jazz Comping Survival Guide. Really enjoyed it. Fareed's style is engaging & unpretentious. He breaks things down into manageable chunks and builds up step by step in a clear and logical way. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
The approach is firmly based around shell voicings (3rd & 7th on strings 3 & 4) played through fundamental changes (blues, ii V I, I vi ii V etc.). You also get introduced to essential/common substitutions. Each progression starts Freddie Green style, moves quickly to basic rootless voicings and on to adding one and two extensions and voice-leading with these.
It really got me up & running in a group setting but if you're already familiar with shell voicings or rootless 3-note type approaches then you've probably covered a lot of the ground already.
-
I had a student of mine who went to Chicago and studied with him in person. He said the guy was ruthlessly tough. Probably a good thing.
-
You mean there are shortcuts? I wish I had known. Ha!
Like Mr. Beaumont shared, I too think of jazz, and all music, as a journey not a destination. There are likely certain milestones to reach but they're different for each of us and only lead us to the next. Everyone learns differently too. What is more efficient for one fella might be tedious for another and vice versa. Therefore it's probably fruitless for me to say to another "this way is faster".
-
I suspect that most of the good to great players that really never practice are those that are heavily gifted/talented.
Whether that talent is inborn or comes from an early childhood immersion in music is up for debate ... probably a mix of the 2.
I also think that a ton of talent can be detrimental if things come too easy and it makes you lazy. To be great still requires hardwork IMHO. The truely greats seem to combine both talent and hard work.
For those of us with limited schedules .... the best approach to organizing an efficient practice method that I've heard is to divide your practice time into increments of time ... 5, 10, 15, 30 minutes.
Devote each increment to targeting a specific skill, tune, technique, etc.
Perhaps a 1 hour session could go like this:
5 minutes .... warm up with scales and arpeggios
10 minutes .... warm up on familiar tunes ... solo, melody, chord work, etc.
15 minutes .... work on scales, arpeggios over b5 chords
15 minutes ... learn new tunes
15 minutes .... work on solo guitar/chord melodies
Repeat as much as possible each week, remove and add targets as needed, add time when possible, remove time if necessary
Over time this could pay off more than mindless noodling and directionless play alongs for an hour
I tend to stick with mindless noodling myself ... often while watching TV
-
If that's what work for you great, but I used to find myself wasting time with that stuff. I never mindlessly noodle anymore. Everything I do on guitar, every note I play, has a special meaning to me. I'm always mindful of everything I hear. I try to come up with fun ways to do things that otherwise wouldn't be fun to do. Originally Posted by Bluedawg
I tend to stick with mindless noodling myself ... often while watching TV
-
The implication that having a gift makes things easier is unfair. Often the gifted work much harder than the others. Originally Posted by smokinguit
-
Originally Posted by smokinguit
LOL .... at myself mainly
While I think mindless noodling can be usefull, especially with improvisational music ......
I think your approach is a much better use of time and would advance my playing at faster pace if I had the discipline to do it.
Reply With Quote
Another way to look at the fingerboard
Yesterday, 10:35 PM in Theory