Emulate the pros who have practiced the least.

**Jonah** · 06-18-2015, 06:30 AM

well.. 'public' can be interpreted as the fact that you're involved in the conversation.. not the audience...

when you write a symphony or a novel you do not need a group of people involved in creative process on the principle of dialogue.. so the process is not public in that sence

And relation with 'the audience' is different issue concerning any art philosophy... not only music or jazz...

**christianm77** · 06-18-2015, 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by Jonah

there are lots of top players who do not/did not practice much I am sure... but this does not make a method

One cannot learn to play through 'non'practicing'....

Maybe this whole idea of a method is silly.

As Dave Cliff said to me - work on your lugs (northern UK for ears), learn some tunes. Maybe learn to read.

Go forth and gig!!!

I like this Carol Kaye interview, BTW, very straight up.

Bear in mind she was doing swing gigs and teaching after a few months, and learned bebop in about the same timescale. She had some efficient learning process going on. Reminds me of what Reg is talking about.

(Also very humbling, but like she says, there's a lot of BS, she suggests that she was lucky to have teachers who cut through it and says that she can teach a guitarist to play jazz in a matter of months. Interesting.)

**Reg** · 06-18-2015, 10:28 AM

Couple of points... to think about.

There are a few methods to get to a level of performance and also musicianship, two different skills. Although they crossover with some of the details.

And with few exceptions.... there are players like strings, just don't count on being one of them... but anyway it takes time to get to pro levels. any definition of pro level. At least for most. The trick which I've been pushing so much... is how much time it takes to remain at that pro level.

How much time do you need to put in to maintain your level of performance and musicianship.

The other point is about audiences... if your going to perform jazz, the audience is part of the performance. Don't start playing for musicians or what you think is cool. Musicians are extremely tight and basically never go to gigs, and most don't think of the audiences as part of the equation. (not all etc...). We tend to have much too high opinions of our music and ourselves...

**targuit** · 06-18-2015, 10:35 AM

Was not part of the theme of this thread originally how to practice efficiently? I hope so, because I was just going to post a note about my "practice routine" this morning.

I started out looking at Days of Wine and Roses by Henry Mancini. I figure this would be a clear winner for a standards set. I have actually never made a transcription of this tune before so the first thing I did was listen and play along to a couple of versions on YT. Started with Henry Mancini's original recorded version. Beautiful, of course. Then, I listened to Andy Williams' vocal version just for the flavor of his interpretation. But what was really interesting was when I searched for a version as a guitar solo. Up popped one of my favorite guitarists at the moment - Craig Wagner.

Craig just knocks me out with his technique that translates into such beautiful arrangements and performances. He is actually the current living guitarist that I think I would most aspire to emulate. After I played through his video and listened to his choices, I then listened to the following tunes - playing along, of course. (One of my faults is that I rarely just listen to music unless in the car. When I "listen", I usually play along.)

Autumn Leaves, Georgia On My Mind, Corcovado, and Summertime. This is quite a workout when you are studying Craig Wagner, whose technique is superb. I love his right hand work with his thumbpick. I've never been too successful with that type of pick, preferring a regular pick and hybrid technique. But he is making me rethink it all a bit. As far as not practicing much, I don't think Craig is that guy, but I do think he is a genius on the instrument. He does a videos for John Buscarino, and in the DOWAR video he is playing a gorgeous Buscarino "Autumn Leaves" series archtop.

But what I wanted to address was how to study Craig's arrangements most effectively and efficiently, which I cannot do. Why? Well, for one I don't have a version of Transcribe or other 'slow-downer- software. I certainly think that is one of the most effective tools around. So why don't I have it? I cannot afford to spring for cash right now. But that would be perfect for studying his style. An alternative approach would be to slow down the video. Why? Because for me just noting in what position (fret position) Craig is playing in any one measure allows me to help recreate his lines. Of course, that is more tedious than just closing your eyes and using your ears, but it would help me if I was trying to recreate his improvised lines and voicings in the absence of Transcribe. But I don't have any software for that either.

So why am I discussing using tech tools I don't have to practice efficiently? Well, for all the talk about exercises and secret techniques to play like a Master without sweating any practice time, in the end I think you have to make music and it does not hurt to emulate the great players. I look at these guys as the best teachers and tutors you can find. Who is better? Fortunately, I don't need to use these technologies to learn for a Craig Wagner, because my ears are pretty good and I know what is going on in real time. But, come to think on it, I'm going to go to my Tascam DR-05 digital recorder and just record these tunes one by one. The Tascam actually has a 'slow-down' feature and loop thing - it's just that I have not taken the time to read the directions on how to get it work...(sigh).

Here's that great version of DOWAR.

**Jonah** · 06-18-2015, 10:45 AM

Maybe this whole idea of a method is silly.

maybe... but most of the people on this forum seem to be constantly in search of a method..

Actually though I am myself not really methodical ... I think teacher should be methodical.

People now expect to much from effevint methids, they're like big kids, think they got some fantastic method that will help you to learn it immediately and unconciously...

Especially in languages - good sample - Italian inb 30 minutes, French in 12 days, German without efforts...

To really learn language you chould master grammar and vocabulary - so you should in most cases speak, read and learn.. speak, read and learn... and this is practice...

It is practice.. if I learn Italian I will not read what I do not like - I will find what I like and that will be my practice...

so playing songs is also practice.. even good listening a practice - it;s all practice.. and it should be fun.. that's what important...

Work can be fun, should be fun...

**Jonah** · 06-18-2015, 10:57 AM

The other point is about audiences... if your going to perform jazz, the audience is part of the performance. Don't start playing for musicians or what you think is cool. Musicians are extremely tight and basically never go to gigs, and most don't think of the audiences as part of the equation. (not all etc...). We tend to have much too high opinions of our music and ourselves...

IMHO

Audience is as crazy... I have seen many lousy players welcomed by the audience and great players ignored...

Contact with audience is important in my opinion in respect of interaction.. this is some way of very intimate communication when you suddenly reach someone with music (or other artistic act) and feel response.. you feel that it really works.. that's important...

But I am sure one should not correct anything to find positive feedback from audience... self-confidence is important in tehse points.

Common sence of respect is enough.. the rest is for providence

**Reg** · 06-18-2015, 11:35 AM

Good points Jonah... but I disagree, if there is no audience.... there is no artist. Art for arts sake or for the artist sake can wk... but jazz is not a notated out composition etc... the live performance is what it is about.

Sure I want to create and evolve the art to magical levels etc... but generally that's not Jazz. jazz is a fairly complicated art form that is created through live performance. IMHO.

It's not just the positive feedback, it's the participation in the process... the performance is not set, there are possibilities of where the music may go.

**Pocket Player** · 06-18-2015, 11:41 AM

Been watching this all morning so far ! and watching this mans, hands move, is always worth my time,he points and give a shout out to the who's who's of guitar players in the crowd all there watching, for them selfs at 18 mins. a must watch for any guitar man!!!

Here's what 12 hours practice a day for 20 years gets ya !!!

**matt.guitarteacher** · 06-18-2015, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by Reg

Hey edh,
So I believe the best and fasted approach to learning to play jazz guitar is separating the physical skills and the performance skills... learning to play something from the radio etc... when you don't have the physical skill develops skills for a specific performance... the organization for developing the physical skill is to be able to perform whatever your trying to be able to perform... Rather than developing physical skills and technique organized to perform all performance jazz, and then using those skills to perform.

Bad technique is usually developed from those momentary learning of a tune etc... when you don't already have the skills together. That's what i mean when I say teachers are usually baby sitters... their suppose to keep that from happening.

Jazz is not like learning classical or a notated tradition of performance... generally the notation comes from the performances. That point always creates a debate etc... but the learning of tunes works, but generally only to a point. And to get past that point and be able to perform jazz live and at the speed of jazz... I believe there is a better approach.
I still believe in learning tunes... just not for developing technical skills. learning tunes is for performance skills and the other theoretical and thinking aspects of performance, after you've already developed the physical skills.

Hey, Reg. I know this is old and the thread is kind of going wherever, but I've been thinking a lot about the above and these three paragraphs in particular.

I can understand how, for example, having some kind of organization for scale/arp fingerings as opposed to learning to transcribe something "any old way you can figure out" (and which you're otherwise unable to play) could keep you from bringing in a lot of bad habits and actually slow you down. But I'm thinking that that's probably only one aspect. I'd imagine just working on different patterns for the scales/arps gives you a framework from which to play better going forward, but what other aspects would you be looking at as well?

I'd imagine pick technique, fretting-hand technique, rhythmic reading/playing in a systematic way, chords/chord scales in the context of different note collections or scales. I know that there's a whole thread on the scale aspect of your approach. I guess I'd be interested to know what some of the other stuff is and what it looks like in practice if it's not geared around playing others' solos (or tunes? would you have a student work this stuff in the context of tunes).

I know I see a lot of this stuff in my own amateur playing (as well as hearing). I've been doing some listening/transcribing, and I'm keenly aware that much of what I hear now, I wouldn't have even been able to hear a couple of years ago. I've spent a lot of time (kind of randomly or by accident) working on triplets and triplet polyrythms outside of playing other people's versions, and I can kind of see those things notated now as I listen. There's also a lot of shifting of melodic rhythms etc. and I find myself thinking, "I wouldn't even know what this was if I didn't know what it was". Probably makes no sense.

At the same time, I'm much better at hearing "what I can't hear". It would seem that you've got to at the very least hit melodic, rhythmic and harmonic basics in playing to be able to even hear certain things. Then, there's the technical aspects of actually playing.

Anyway, besides the left hand fingering protocol and picking technique, what are the other areas you'd have a student work on, and how/when do they integrate with the other areas (and with working tunes) while your getting your stuff together? Sorry to be long. Thanks for your thoughts always.

**ecj** · 06-18-2015, 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by Pocket Player

Been watching this all morning so far ! and watching this mans, hands move, is always worth my time,he points and give a shout out to the who's who's of guitar players in the crowd all there watching, for them selfs at 18 mins. a must watch for any guitar man!!!

Here's what 12 hours practice a day for 20 years gets ya !!!

I mean no disrespect to Vai, who is clearly an amazing player, but...does anyone really think anything in that video is cool? That has got to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen.

He's dressed up like an evil magician making weird noises on his guitar in front of a wind machine. Bizarre.

**Jonah** · 06-19-2015, 06:28 AM

style is important ... to me at least...

not everything that is called 'guitar' has relation to 'jazz - guitar'

**grahambop** · 06-19-2015, 07:18 AM

Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar

well, at least at his concerts guys are safe from running into these terrifying things called "women"

To my knowledge, I have never heard a single note of Steve Vai or Eddie van Halen or any of those guys, and I don't see why I should start now.

I did watch one of them in one those fake 'so-and-so shreds' videos which I thought was amusing.

**targuit** · 06-19-2015, 08:46 AM

I'm listening and watching the first four minutes of Steve Vai's concert. Sounds like bad Mahavishnu Orchestra who took too much valium and beer. Dreck does not begin to describe it for me. I guess it is an acquired taste. But the Wizard costume? Ick!

Sorry to be so negative. But this stuff gives me a headache...

**Patrick2** · 06-19-2015, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by ecj

I mean no disrespect to Vai, who is clearly an amazing player, but...does anyone really think anything in that video is cool? That has got to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen.

He's dressed up like an evil magician making weird noises on his guitar in front of a wind machine. Bizarre.

Having heard Vai interviewed a few times he seemed like a pretty cool and down to earth guy. Especially when he told the stories of having auditioned for Frank Zappa and studying with "Satch". Paid humble homage to each of them. So, I'm left to believe that if Vai was to look upon your avatar, sitting there in a suit jacket and tie . . . with an oh-so serious and studious look on your face . . he'd probably not speak disparigingly of your *look*. I'd guess he say something to the effect of . . . "hey, that dude really looks the part for the music he's playing".

Via is far more than a master guitarist and master musician. He's a master performer and a master entertainer. He "occupies his spot" on the bandstand as well as in the genre of music he's devoted to . . . much the same as as I would image you aspire to as well.

**Pocket Player** · 06-19-2015, 09:52 AM

Grahambop Id love for you to watch this ! it will hurt your ears just a little my friend

but id be more curious on your take !!! and respect your thoughts! enjoy this set. I think you will. It is over top !! for sure but.... what a amazing display, of comand over the guitar. and if you make it deep into the set.... it only gets better and better...there some serious moves to be watched. about 1/2 way throu he does some interplay with the violins, i thought was very nice...and tasty as well. But yes your going to get a blast of distortion for awhile

But really would love to here your thoughts too. Great comments guys on his showmanship. he really does give his crowd what they are paying to see. Thanks guys for taking the time to watch. no matter your opinion.

**Jonah** · 06-19-2015, 09:59 AM

I practiced 12 hours daily for 20 years.... no family, no friends...

his morning I woke up and looked at this strange wooden thing with six steel wires on it...
I could not remeber its name...
I could not remember what it is for...
all I knew I have to practice it... somehow

becaue if I do it for 20 years 12 hrs a day then I will be able to do something... some thing I do not know yet... but I am sure I will be able

**Reg** · 06-19-2015, 10:30 AM

Hey Matt... I pretty much worked on every aspect of playing guitar and tried to develop default or basic references.

From all the fingerings and fretboard skills... of lines, scales, arpeggios, every pattern...all chords, from One note to six. Basically I tried to have organized approach that repeated and could adapt to different applications... same positional fingerings expand or change to work for different and new note collections.

And I apply this type of approach to performance... I can approach any tune with preset harmonic approaches, melodic or rhythmic etc... Different styles, chordal patterns, melodic patterns, rhythmic organization. Somewhat like thinking harmonically... when you use II V's as approach application or just creating a pattern and movement. Instead of just working with one chord, you have a few chord patterns. II-7 V7 to I, II-7b5 V7alt to I and then you can mix and match, use subs, use modal interchange......

Anyway this type of approach... becomes somewhat mechanical, it develops common patterns that become instinctive. Just like playing position fingering patterns when playing scales, arpeggios etc... just as I have default fingerings, I have default chordal patterns, rhythmic patterns phrasing...groove patterns... default harmonic organizations etc...

So instead of one chord, I have a whole collection of these chord patterns which have standard harmonic implication... different tunes imply different chord patterns.

And I use melodic patterns on top of chord patterns which also imply what i want the tune to sound like, along with
rhythmic patterns

It's just a bigger bag of tricks to perform with. melodies, chords and rhythm all become one process when I perform. I use to say... I just plug and play... the performance is what I choose to play.

I still play very Live... and my comments about being able to think while I perform probably stem from my approach, I can play very soulful and be in any pocket and still think about what I'm doing and what the rest of band is doing and where we might go... I'm creating what I want to play... I generally don't need create how to play what I want... I have all these pre set formulas that can plug and play, I have lots of options.

Say your playing Bye Bye Blackbird... I did last night, I saw Jordan posted a New Orleans version ... anyway So I called the tune last night and said lets cover in a New Orleans second line style... so we had this two bar, in two rhythmic pattern... and I just dropped this harmonic pattern on the tune... lots of chord patterns and little groove lead lines on top... to create the feel and sound... we were a trio and sax...so I didn't need to just cover the head, I basically just answered the head, It got pretty funky. The drumer was Jake Hanna's nephew...was fun.

My point... just as I have pre organized fingerings that I don't need to figure out, this approach also works with all aspects of performance, and has unlimited possibilities for creating relationships and developing... you know, like playing live jazz. You know what your playing is working when the audience is movin and nowadays... you see iphones always taking movies etc...

**Pocket Player** · 06-19-2015, 12:52 PM

For you my friend ! Destinytot Another of one of the Heavyest sets i've ever seen. and mabe a better example...In my Little brain... any music at the highest level is alllll Jazzz to me

P.s Destinytot please find a place to post some more of that bossa nova love !!! for me to listen toooooo ! and any of the great music you got in your collection and Knowledge.....i cant get enough.

enjoy this set boyz And girls...

**targuit** · 06-19-2015, 01:49 PM

I have to admit that my first reaction to the Steve Vai clip was yes he has dexterity and attitude to his music, but it is not my cup of tea. I sounded perhaps too harshly critical in my comments, and I would retract the "dreck" comment. But it is a bit bombastic.

When I use that term, I would say that YES was sometimes "bombastic" in their musicianship, yet Steve Howe was a very fine rock guitarist in my opinion back in the day. Vai I've never taken to very much. Nor Joe Satriani either, though I do credit them with skills at their style. It's just not my taste.

And I would look silly in a wizard costume...He does have good hair. Though we could speculate on who has the best hair in jazz. The answer - Larry Coryell.

**Nabil B** · 06-19-2015, 05:48 PM

I've listened to Vai on a few occasions and I enjoy some of his work. He has a unique personality, and it really shines through his music. I've never really paid attention to the bizarre visual stuff when I watched him live, maybe because it seems "natural" in the sense that it's who he really is, it's honest and not forced. I also heard him in several interviews and he always seemed like a genuine nice guy.

**fumblefingers** · 06-19-2015, 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by ecj

I mean no disrespect to Vai, who is clearly an amazing player, but...does anyone really think anything in that video is cool? That has got to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen.

He's dressed up like an evil magician making weird noises on his guitar in front of a wind machine. Bizarre.

i think they call it.... shoooooow biz, folks.

and the fan? it was probably needed to cool him down in his Merlin cape under the stage lights as much as it was to blow through his wonderfully girly locks.

if i'm not mistaken that first "song" was a ONE chord jam. but you have to admit that it had lots of opportunities for the band to make lots of pretentious, super bad, ecstasy faces, no?

it was heeeeaaaaaavy. man.

**henryrobinett** · 06-19-2015, 10:08 PM

Regarding Bensons star power. And I love Benson by the way. I called Scott Southard, promoter and booking agent for Metheny back in the mid 90s. I know Ted Kurland did this but I think Scott did too. I was very surprised to get a call back from him.

Scott called me and said - I paraphrase: "Henry. I know you. I love your music. I really do. I hear you on the radio and I might have a CD of yours around here some place. I'd love to take you on but I just can't. I have a hard enough time booking George Benson. And i'm serious. I can't book Benson! Unfortunately you have to book yourself enough to where I can take you on."

I was amazed that he called me back, that he claimed to know who I was and very disappointed all at the same time.

So in jazz the perception of what a huge star is is but a fraction of what we might think a star is.

destinytot · 06-20-2015, 03:07 AM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Regarding Bensons star power.

Quite a few large-scale music festivals take place in and around the city where I live, many of which are jazz festivals. I noticed that when George Benson played at this one (almost exactly three years ago), it wasn't billed as jazz, whereas I'm pretty sure that his show was billed as jazz when I saw him in the UK. (I'm glad I saw him three years ago, because I was able to watch him from just a few metres away from the stage.)

**grahambop** · 06-20-2015, 05:09 AM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Regarding Bensons star power. And I love Benson by the way. I called Scott Southard, promoter and booking agent for Metheny back in the mid 90s. I know Ted Kurland did this but I think Scott did too. I was very surprised to get a call back from him.

Scott called me and said - I paraphrase: "Henry. I know you. I love your music. I really do. I hear you on the radio and I might have a CD of yours around here some place. I'd love to take you on but I just can't. I have a hard enough time booking George Benson. And i'm serious. I can't book Benson! Unfortunately you have to book yourself enough to where I can take you on."

I was amazed that he called me back, that he claimed to know who I was and very disappointed all at the same time.

So in jazz the perception of what a huge star is is but a fraction of what we might think a star is.

Branford Marsalis said when he and Wynton were signed to Columbia, they somehow got a chance to look through some old files relating to sales figures for some of Miles Davis' mid-60s albums. They were amazed at how low the figures were. I think one of the albums, might have been Sorcerer, only sold about 3000 copies in the first year.

**targuit** · 06-20-2015, 08:50 AM

Mike - I saw George Benson on February 27,1973 playing pure jazz from about five to six feet away at a front and center table at the Jazz Workshop in Boston, MA. It was heaven for me. The Workshop was a very intimate club setting and I literally had the best seat in the house for an aspiring guitarist. Benson was unbelievable. Unbeknownst to me the evening was recorded and you can find them online with several of the songs extant. He played some solo, with his group, and a couple of tunes with special guest, a very young Earl Klugh. He sang a couple, too. This was before he broke as a pop star. Given the circumstances the most remarkable concert I've ever seen. A smile never left his face, nor mine.