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Found an early Tom Jones video doing Whats New Pussy Cat and i super imposed a certain commenter/posters head on T.J.s body gyrating around and singing and i laughed.Then i put Tom Jones head on the guitarist body playing Stray Cat strut and it got weird and i dont like cats and now nightmares will be forth with and i have to get back to my HOMEWORK because if i don't do my HOMEWORK i cant advance in life and Mommy Godin is calling me so i have to go.
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06-09-2015 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Reg
I can't sight read like you but i have a theory about this after observing others, and myself.
I have noticed a lot of young musicians who've read a lot of music over time and became very good readers, and without an intensive effort being made to do so. i'm not suggesting that they didn't try at all, of course.
it seems to be a function of the repetition and effort to successfully play what's in front of you. assuming you have some talent and smarts, over time you get pretty good at it, not unlike reading text out loud.
I've found that reading both jazz and classical material has some synergistic benefits. each has helped me read the other.Last edited by fumblefingers; 06-09-2015 at 03:29 PM.
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Hey doc. You sound fine to me. Originally Posted by targuit
I was a classical voice major for a few semesters to kill time and build credits. I could always sing to be honest, and easily earned A grades. For me, I wouldn't dare upload anything these days. And despite the fact that you sound fine, it wouldn't break my heart if you refrained from doing so as well, although I know you won't take that advice.
At least maybe could you sing some nice jazz tunes or standards while accompanying yourself? Then take a guitar solo, then sing the rest of the song, then close out on the guitar? All jazz please. Doing that effectively (and efficiently - for Jonzo!) would score some major cred around here, methinks.Last edited by fumblefingers; 06-09-2015 at 03:32 PM.
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Someone should ask the kid in Giant Steps thread how he got so good so fast. It is very possible that many of us have spent more time on the internet than that kid has spent practicing since he started playing. And speaking for myself, and what I have heard from some of the folks around here, the kid can play circles around me, I know, and certainly a lot of you all.
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Jay did do one tune like that. Shadow of Your Smile, it's on his YouTube channel. i.e. he did a guitar solo on the middle chorus, in between the vocal sections. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
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I think a lot of them end up more original, and personal sound is in a lot of ways inescapable, but I've never heard anyone under 17 or 18 that sounded "different". Originally Posted by fumblefingers
There are some young new wave superstars from time to time, guys like Metheny, but they tend to be young adults. The little kids are almost always Django-like or Benson-like.
I think it takes longer (and in my opinion is a more difficult, mature task) to create your own approach to art.
A good framework might be: imitate your favorite player until you almost lose your identity, then move on from there.
It's what Metheny did with Wes and Jim Hall, what Wes did with Charlie Christian, Bird with Lester Young, etc.
I was always too afraid to imitate, and I think if reflect on why it's taken me so long to get decent, that might be my answer.
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There are people I know who are more effecient than me at practicing don't practice any less than me. If I suddenly becane really effecient and I could cut 4 hours into two hours then I would still do 4 hours. I dont think effecient players practice less, they just get better faster
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so Jonzo... your interested in least amount of time to get to the level of a pro.
Lets say a pro should be able to show up at almost any jazz gig and be able to play what's required by the gig.
And whatever aspect of musicianship required should be a level of being able to add to the performance or recording.
Personally that means being able to play what's asked for and also being able to entertain at live venues.
So with the way I approached playing I was able to cover before I was 20. I was playing jazz gigs with working pros and also playing junk gigs... the rock/blues things.
I was a good player in high school... not a good jazz player, but had lots of chops and could read. You just rarely needed to.
I had more chops than the kid playing GS and knew what a groove was etc... I wish I would have played more jazz... but the SF music scene was way to much fun in the latter 60's. And I was nowhere near mature or responsible, I don't believe I knew the concepts.
So I started playing in elementary school... just not guitar... When I became serious about playing guitar... it took three or four years to get the fretboard together and develop the standard voicings of chords for jazz and arpeggios and scales. I've never really changed... just added new material.
So 3 years... at about 10 hours a week practice
52wks x 10hrs= 520hrs per year
520hrs x 3yrs = 1560 hrs during HS
next two years... more playing than practicing, but at least 20 hours a week, including wk.
52wks x 20hrs = 1040hrs per year
1040 hrs x 2 years = 2080 hrs
2080 + 1560 = 3140 hrs to get to the level of being able to show up at gigs or sessions and cover.
Many of those hrs were gigs and not sure how to factor in the early years on different instruments.
But I could sight read, new the changes and could comp well, had chops and new how to get through tunes with improv.
I think sometimes I sounded better than I do now, much more energy etc...
At 20 I went to berklee... I was able to play in any of their bands my first year. I wasn't the best, but I did get scholarships back in the 70's... I chose to get into composition and arranging, took piano lessons and played trombone in BB's...it's all down hill from there.... now I suck and and have to play the Doctor challenge game.
Anyway... so Jonzo... I guess i could start making calls and see if anyone actually remembers how much time they put in, but like I said before, I believe how much time one needs to put in to stay at that level of performance would be more useful... If it takes one year or 10 years... to get to that level of playing. If you can't stay there what's the point. It's not like it's a finish line... it's more of a starting line.
Some of my friends while at Berklee, Al Cohn's son Joe, fine guitarist... got his sight reading skills together in less than six months. Another friend and great guitarist, Jamie Glaser was also a great sight reader... and he could Rock, he's toured some of the great electric bands... Chick and Jean-Luc Ponty. He was a fine guitarist a young age... I digress, sorry.
I don't believe it's that complicated.... if your organized and don't use the..."throw it against a wall and see what sticks" approach... it should only take three or four years to get to a pro level of guitar skills.
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I read a thing by Tuck Andress ,
who basically said that after years and years of analyzing this learning thing ...
he's come to the conclusion that the answer to any question re learning to play Jazz guitar
is ............
do what Wes did .....
pretty good huh ?Last edited by pingu; 06-09-2015 at 06:13 PM.
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Regarding Reg's post above.
I had a working pro teacher that said, "for a jazz beginner one gig is worth 6 months of lessons and practice"... (I was that jazz beginner, still am in my opinion).
I believe there is truth in his statement. Playing gigs really focuses one on what they should be spending their time on, and gives one a deadline (the gig). It seems like there isn't much time before the gig, often times a week or less, one has to work hard and efficiently. And, oh yeah, guess what you end up working on? Songs, i.e. the leaders song list. Back to practicing songs as many of us have said before.
This lines up with the high proportion of time that Reg was gigging early in his career.
The other piece is talent, genes, aptitude, work ethic... whatever you want to call itLast edited by fep; 06-09-2015 at 06:38 PM.
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I know I've posted this in other threads, but it just keeps seeming relevant: Originally Posted by ecj
"If I had known then what I know now... I would have sat down and learned how to make every sound that Wes Montgomery made. I would have just started off with that, just the way he started off with Charlie Christian. I wouldn't have thought about it, I wouldn't have tried to understand the harmony, anything. I would have just learned to make those sounds, and that would be the most direct path. Then I could expand and eventually understand, but it would be like a native language." - Tuck Andress
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To me I would've done similar to what I did. But practicing the LEAST or AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE has nothing to do with it. I would have practiced longer. A goal of practicing less just isn't even a factor for me.
Just like Mingus told me: musicians practice. The life of hanging around and not playing guitar as much as possible just doesn't even seem to be an interesting goal. If you don't WANT to have a guitar in your hands as much as possible, at least in your developmental stage, you're not going to be much of a pro.
1. Technical studies
2. Ear - solo transcriptions.
3. Tunes.
4. Reading.
5. Improvising.
Pretty much that was it for me. I organized my practice routines. I NEVER practiced without a specific plan. I had it written out, kept notes and logged in my hours EVERYDAY.
THAT'S THE SHORTCUT as I know it. I could write out a detailed description of what I did at various points. But I'd have to charge you. But the routine always varied. Sometimes a lot, sometimes not a lot for years. It depended on what I accomplished and what failures had to be addressed.
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It took me years to figure out that I didn't have to practice the way I did as a beginner as I gained experience and ability. The most efficient method the quickest way to jazz guitar nirvana is learning to play by ear your favorite jazz guitar recordings. You will learn 4 years of information from one 7 minute recording.
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I've always enjoyed playing music. If it's fun, why not just do it a lot. And, it sounds cliche, I no longer care where I end up, I just enjoy the journey. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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I think I wasted plenty of time practicing minutiae when i could have been learning more tunes, and just crossing bridges in context.
I learned a song tonight. Here I am, playing on the changes:
And SINGING it.
How's that Jay? Two videos in one night!
Yours truly,
Ever wise docent that ain't no Miles DavisLast edited by mr. beaumont; 06-09-2015 at 10:12 PM.
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I kind of skimmed through a few of these pages, found a flame war and a lot of hate towards classical technique. I'm going to post my few cents.
As a young musician in New York, I need to state that EVERYTHING that you can learn, will help you at some point. I don't care if that's expertise in Bach chorales, or being the best at chicken pickin' there is. There are WAY TOO MANY good guitar players that are better than you (or myself) to be dismissing learning material. Personally, I am all for practicing anything and everything you can come across. I study Bach chorales almost daily, and work out a lot of Bartok music. I also think it's good to have all types of techniques available and ready for use. One of the reasons I like people like Ben Monder so much is because he's great at many techniques and styles, and that's probably the reason why he's so good. A lot of the musicians I listen to have heavily studied classical music, and many even have degrees in a study of the classical styles, whether it's composition, orchestration, counterpoint, or even performance.
Now to the topic at hand (the OP), there's no such thing as practicing the least or the most. Every one is different and has different biological advantages or issues at hand. The so called "pros" have a LOT of shit together, but also a lot of them have many, many shortcomings. You won't notice them, because they play for their shortcomings to not be noticed, but if you hang out with them as much as I've had the chance to, you'll hear a lot of these things. The stuff that they do have together, they have together very well, and it's what gives each musician their distinctive sound. For example, If you want a guitar player that's well versed in rhythms, you're going to hire Miles Okazaki, not Mike Moreno. If you want someone who can play in more of a rock vibe, you'll probably want someone like Nir Felder, and not Bireli Lagrene. The stuff that you practice is what gives you your sound.
In my skimming, I read an old comment about someone stating that Mike Moreno only practiced 5 hours a day when he was younger. Put that into perspective though. Mike was going to school full time until he was 21-22. He went to an arts high school and music school for college. Consider that he's in class for about 7 hours a day, where he is also learning music theory, and probably playing tons in ensembles and classes. Also put into perspective that he's gigging a lot at the time, so lets say 2 hours a day (this is not including double-hits or anything, an average gig is about two hours). Also take into consideration sessions. Going to them late at night for 2-3 hours, and setting up private sessions as well, for 2 at a time, that's about 4 hours. Just with that, he has about 13 hours taken up of his average day, just with music. Lets say he slept for 8 hours a day, that's 21 hours. I'd be surprised if he can cram 5 hours of practice in there. However, that does not mean he wasn't doing other things. He was playing, performing, listening, and learning. That kind of still sounds a lot like practice to me.
Again, there's no such thing as practicing the least, and you have to be really good at something for people to want to hire you, which technically makes you a "pro".
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thanks I'll check it out. i only saw that one about Bernie Madoff. Originally Posted by grahambop
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Originally Posted by pingu
its quite logical. the thing is, it's different from what Reg said. There are plenty of "pro musicians" (some who are quite wealthy) who can't "cover" like Reg describes. Reg's skills remind of what they teach at USC - "Studio/Jazz" guitar. In other words, it's like doing what Wes did, plus what Tommy Tedesco did.
That's a high bar for most geetar men.
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Nice. :-) Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
This thread has now achieved epic status.
Loved the thumbs up at the end btw. Had to explain to the family why I was snorting.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 06-09-2015 at 11:00 PM.
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I saw this quote by Tim Lerch and thought of this thread.
music in general:
Playing the guitar really well can take a very long time, especially if you aren't curious and vigilant. Even after we get pretty good at it there is an infinitely long way to go. Once you learn something you need to stay with it until its completely natural and intuitive even then it will fade if ignored.
Only listening to and learning from other guitarists is a narrow path with narrow results.
Your mind is the real instrument and your ears are the conductor. Remember that when you are frustrated with that damned wood and steel contraption.
Music must be honest and it doesn't matter if others don't believe your truth. Keep at it, the truth will prevail. A big part of the journey is accepting your self and your natural sound, how can we expect others to dig us if we don't dig ourselves. Having said that don't be too impressed with your own playing that can spoil things rather quickly.
Strange as it may sound, we forget to listen.... a lot. listen carefully, listen deeply, then some music might be possible.
Guitarist do a few things , we shorten strings in various ways and we start strings vibrating and we stop them from vibrating in various ways and sometimes if we are really listening, we do something beautiful and intentional while the string is vibrating. All of those things are equally important and should be given a lot of attention.
Thank you for reading and considering these thoughts.
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Jeff - Congrats on having the guts to sing in public. Singing is a little different from playing an instrument. Nothing to hide behind. You put your soul out there naked and make yourself vulnerable. While I think it is safe to say that Michael Buble can sleep soundly tonight, you did a fine job. Never heard that song before. And you seem to have an appreciative audience. I used to sing to my baby son as I paced the floor with him, his head resting on my shoulder in the dim moonlit living room. Memories I hope to never forget. At the time he seemed to share my taste for Metheny and Hayden's Beyond the Missouri Skies. Not so much these days, though mostly he listens to music on his phone through earbuds. Maybe it is some kind of blessing?
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I think you have to study what interests you. Of course you also need real world musical skills - i.e. play in time, be able to read a bit, have some ears, know some tunes etc. If you have these skills you can work. Originally Posted by jtizzle
If you can work, then often you only have limited time to practice and what you practice is directly relevant to your music. So it's a virtuous circle, your playing will improve much more playing with other musicians, and you will have a clear direction and goals in you playing so that your practice will be efficient.
Personally I do feel like a need to set time aside to address fundamentals, as all the great musicians I have worked with have this together - it makes it much easier to remind yourself of a tune you have half forgotten if you have good ears, or play one you don't know or have a chart for, for example. But I wouldn't regard myself as a very good musician, so I always feel like I'm making up ground. I would regard time invested in general musicianship as a very good investment.
Technically you can be a pro by not playing very well. But then you need to invest all your time into finding gigs. This is a skill in itself, and one most musicians suck at.
Other pros get hired because of a niche. That's what I have:
For myself, people hire me, normally for one or more of these reasons:
1) I can play good steady straight fours.
2) I can pastiche Django and Charlie Christian in my solos.
3) I have a wide jazz background meaning I listen to other players and can deal with charts and unusual elements - odd time and more modern harmony (unlike a lot of Gypsy jazz players) which is useful in a couple of projects I do.
4) I have a decent swing and mainstream repertoire.
5) I can play without an amp
6) I try to be a nice guy and to turn up on time.
I play around 200 gigs a year, 95% of which are jazz of various types, and I do very little teaching, so I suppose I am a full time jazz guitarist. A pro.
(I am under no illusions of grandeur about it. In fact I'd like to do less gigging TBH, and focus on doing the music I care about.)
Of course, I would like it if I got hired for being Christian Miller King of Jazz Guitar!!!! But, in reality, I have a niche. This I suspect is not the spirit of the OP, that imagines that Pro players have some gold standard of absolute ability, but this varies widely.
You can be a total MF in New York, and not even be the best player on your block, perhaps not even in your building, for example. Elsewhere, you might be the only good player for miles and get all the local work.Last edited by christianm77; 06-10-2015 at 08:33 AM.
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Being a nice guy is one people underestimate a lot. If the choice is between 10 guitar players who all score between 90 and 99 on your objective-awesome-matrix and the guy with the 99 is a tool then you're not going to hire him. Way better to get the 90 who's going to be there on time, try to play with everyone than force everyone to play with him, and not vibe people out.
obviously the above is a partial joke but the idea is legit. Once everyone is a certain level of good then attitude is going to lose you gigs no matter how good you are. We always talk about how nice and humble our heros turn out to be when we meet them ... It's not coincidence. If they were jerks - to be quite honest - we probably wouldn't have heard of them.
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true that, Originally Posted by pamosmusic
jaco had mental problems , which made him
a drag to be around somerimes..
on an instruction vid
he was asked what were his ambitions or something....
he said
"get me a gig man" and smiled
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What happened with Jaco was really sad. I wonder how many could see what was going on? Originally Posted by pingu
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