Aebersold play-along confusion

[East to Wes]

I'm lost. I've been trying to listen and play with Aebersolds and other play-alongs, but everytime I try, I end up feeling confused and that I should give up because I am incompetent, have a tin ear, and flat don't get it.

I can't keep my place. I have no idea what chord they're playing with or when the chords change. It sounds like chaos to me. It's so complicated. The bass is all over the place and too often too low to hear the note clearly), the piano is off in its own world and moves too fast anyway, and unless I count every single measure with the drums, I can't keep my place (and I always lose track of which measure I'm on anyway--oh, wait, did I count measure 8 twice?-- that sort of thing).

I have How to Improvise (book one), and the only exercise I can do is if I play the scales and patterns along with Jamey. I can easily hear which melody note he is playing and match it; it's the harmony that's a mystery. If I try to play along with the track without him, forget it. If I mess up one measure or even one note, I get lost and can't figure out where they are and have to start over.

I've tried just listening to the tracks without playing along myself. I've tried playing root notes or thirds for every chord, but again I get lost.

The worst thing is that I hate them (which I'm sure is just because of my frustration). I hate listening to the backing tracks. I just wish they'd play the dang chord so I could hear where they are. Instead they're off doing chromatic runs and approach notes and all other kinds of things.

What is wrong with me? I think reading music is relatively easy. I'd rather read a hundred songs than try to keep my place in one chord progression without a piece of paper in front of me. I know there are people who have the opposite problem and can easily play by ear but can't read. But to me being able to play by ear is miraculous.

I should mention I've taken two semesters of ear training/sight singing. The first semester went ok, but the second was incredibly hard and I just squeaked by. I found sight singing much easier than hearing and transcribing melodies, harmonies, and rhythms.

I keep telling myself I should just keep working at it, but I'm not getting it. I feel like I'm trying to rock climb a sheer face.

[setemupjoe]

Have you tried chunking through the recording playing the chords? I would do this a bunch of times first until you feel more grounded with the song. The Aebersold recordings are good and the players are professionals. The way they are playing is the way any professional jazz group would play.
Also try singing the melody over the recording. Then play the melody over it. Then play the melody with very small alterations. As you get comfortable with each step venture a little further away from the melody. BUT if you can't play the melody straight over the changes there's no way you can play a solo.

[AlsoRan]

I learned Grant Green's I'll Remember April note-for-note to play with the Hal Leonard Jazz Greats Guitar Play Along backing track and I have got to tell you, it ate my lunch.

The metronome is so kind. It gives counts out every beat for you, if you'd like it to. Jazz bands? Weeellll that's another story. It is a skill of another kind to be able to play with a real Jazz band's harmony captured on a backing track.

I backed off for a few months but I am going to give it a go again once I have mastered a couple of fun songs I have been working on. But, let me say that I feel your pain and was quite frankly shocked.

I am going to dive back in, as I said earlier, but this time I won't try it until I can't tap my foot through the entire song. I have found that starting slow with foot-tapping, or some other body movement that feels the beat, can be a big aid at higher tempos.

You might want to give it a try if you are not doing it already.

Good luck...

[Guitarzen]

If you can't even play the root of each chord without getting lost, it sounds like your trying to play some changes that are too difficult for you. Take it down a level or two. You might also want to use Band in a Box instead of Abersold tracks. The Abersold tracks tend to sound better than BiaB (both the midi and real tracks), but with BiaB you can watch the screen to help you keep your place. This is like riding a bike with training wheels though, you don't want to rely on it forever. You say reading music is easy for you, are you not using a chart while you play along with the back tracks? This might mean you can't actually read music as good as you thought, or you're not used to reading/playing with other instruments. Your a guitarist I presume, and I'm assuming you took private classical guitar lessons for several years (the only way I can imagine reading being "easy" for a guitarist)? If you were majoring in guitar at a college you'd be required to also to participate in an ensemble of some kind, are you doing this? Playing with an Abersold track using the provided chart is pretty much the same as playing classical chamber music, in terms of the skills you need to use, at least when playing the head. Are you able to read/play the head without getting lost? Pretty much the worst thing you can do is try to play stuff that is way beyond your level and get frustrated and give up. My guess is you can play the head but as soon as you start to improvise you get lost? I used to have lots of problems with that, I'm sure we all have. It sounds like your very used to reading music but not so used to improvising over chord changes "by ear". You have to learn how to walk before you can run. Jazz is pretty much the most difficult type of improvisational music. You will make more progress and develop more important fundamental improvisational skills if you just focus on playing some blues for a year or two. I know that's probably not what you want to hear, but it's the truth. If your getting frustrated and confused, the problem is you are not practicing the right stuff for your level, not that you are incapable of playing music.

[East to Wes]

Thanks for the helpful replies.

With reading music, it's not like it's so easy, it's just that I know exactly how to work on it. I've put a lot of work into it and I've enjoyed it tremendously. It's gratifying to hear what the music sounds like as you work out the notes and rhythms. It feels good to see slow improvement.

But with hearing what the rhythm section is doing on a backing track or song and when the chords change, I've seen it as a chore and I haven't known how to work on it in a graduated and semi-enjoyable way. So I don't work on it.

I have had a little success with creating my own simple backing tracks (playing chords) and then playing along with them. So I should probably keep doing that. I've even been seriously thinking about buying a bass so I can work on basslines. I think I this would help me develop an ear for what the bass is doing in songs (although I need another musical instrument like I need another hole in my head).

[East to Wes]

If you can't even play the root of each chord without getting lost, it sounds like your trying to play some changes that are too difficult for you. Take it down a level or two. You might also want to use Band in a Box instead of Abersold tracks. The Abersold tracks tend to sound better than BiaB (both the midi and real tracks), but with BiaB you can watch the screen to help you keep your place. This is like riding a bike with training wheels though, you don't want to rely on it forever. You say reading music is easy for you, are you not using a chart while you play along with the back tracks? This might mean you can't actually read music as good as you thought, or you're not used to reading/playing with other instruments. Your a guitarist I presume, and I'm assuming you took private classical guitar lessons for several years (the only way I can imagine reading being "easy" for a guitarist)? If you were majoring in guitar at a college you'd be required to also to participate in an ensemble of some kind, are you doing this? Playing with an Abersold track using the provided chart is pretty much the same as playing classical chamber music, in terms of the skills you need to use, at least when playing the head. Are you able to read/play the head without getting lost? Pretty much the worst thing you can do is try to play stuff that is way beyond your level and get frustrated and give up. My guess is you can play the head but as soon as you start to improvise you get lost? I used to have lots of problems with that, I'm sure we all have. It sounds like your very used to reading music but not so used to improvising over chord changes "by ear". You have to learn how to walk before you can run. Jazz is pretty much the most difficult type of improvisational music. You will make more progress and develop more important fundamental improvisational skills if you just focus on playing some blues for a year or two. I know that's probably not what you want to hear, but it's the truth. If your getting frustrated and confused, the problem is you are not practicing the right stuff for your level, not that you are incapable of playing music.

I do sometimes play with IRealPro, but as you suggest, it feels too easy to just look at where you are in the changes. So I don't feel like it helps my ear that much. I have the same issues if I try to play without looking at the screen.

I play in an ensemble and have for a couple of years. I worked on note reading beforehand on my own, then took a class, then joined the ensemble. I've always gravitated toward reading music. I'm an atypical guitarist that way. I don't play classical style though--I play with a pick on a steel-string guitar.

The Aebersold I've been working in doesn't have a head per se. It's more of a set of scale exercises, as well as some 2-5-1 progressions and generic blues in Bb and F.

I have no pride about this. I'm willing to learn from children's material if I have to. I just don't know *how* to work on this. What are some ways I can develop my ear for harmony on the bunny slope instead of the full-speed downhill?

[Rob MacKillop]

While listening to the tracks, try scat singing while tapping your foot. Seriously. This is something which needs to be addressed without the guitar in your hands. You have to embed that feeling for the One - beat one of each bar. Once you've got that down, clap your hands on beats two and four. So, foot stomp on One, clap on Two and Three. This will help you keep you place more than understanding chromatic approaches and chord extensions.

[dingusmingus]

Related to Rob's point, you can work on this as you listen to jazz. (And you are listening to lots of jazz, right?). Count bars and try to hear the form. Pretend you're in the band, and try to keep your place. Active listening has been a key to my (very modest) development.

[MarkRhodes]

Much good advice here.
One thing more, perhaps: start with a blues! Then "Satin Doll" or "Summertime," something that is good but not too challenging and not too fast. Take as much time as it takes.


Some of the Aebersolds have an approach to learning the chords of a tune. Start by playing the root of each chord. Then the first two notes, then the first three, the first five, the triad, and so on.

Also, with play-alongs (-and all jazz, really) many changes are anticipated. You have to know where the beat is but not every change comes on the beat. You develop a feel for that.

[pamosmusic]

Thanks for the helpful replies.

With reading music, it's not like it's so easy, it's just that I know exactly how to work on it. I've put a lot of work into it and I've enjoyed it tremendously. It's gratifying to hear what the music sounds like as you work out the notes and rhythms. It feels good to see slow improvement.

Tell me what you do with reading music? You know how to work on it ... okay ... how do you work on it?

Also it sounds like you don't know the tune that well. Plain and simple. When people play through a classic jazz standard like Autumn Leaves they aren't hearing every chord and playing every chord. They're hearing the form. John Coltrane could probably leave halfway through Autumn Leaves, grab a drink at the bar, use the bathroom, go outside for a smoke, and start playing at the top of a chorus without even going back inside.

You play the forms a lottttt ... that way you know how to place lines that are going to fall where you want them to and play multiple choruses.

How do you work on learning the changes to a tune?

[ColMc]

East to Wes I'm a beginner in jazz as well and I see some parallels with my own experience.
I could learn the chord progression and play it without a chord sheet , learning All the Things You Are
was a major accomplishment at the time, if I tried to improvise I would be lost within a few bars.

Then I took a lesson from a jazz guitarist teacher and he taught me about jazz voice leading.
Because jazz moves in 4ths, the b7th of the chord you are playing will lead to the 3rd of the next chord.
So all of a sudden I wasn't thinking of the chord progression as much as the arpeggios and landing on the b7th at the end of the bar,
which leads down a fret to the 3rd of the next chord. To me that was the epiphany.

Now I get heaps of pleasure in just playing arps around a 251 or a 6251.
I hope this helps you as well.
Col.

[East to Wes]

Tell me what you do with reading music? You know how to work on it ... okay ... how do you work on it?

How do you work on learning the changes to a tune?

I work on reading music by taking one of the stack of books I've acquired in different genres (pop, jazz, classical, country, you name it) and for different instuments (guitar, of course, but also a bunch of clarinet stuff and other miscellaneous instruments) and reading one note at a time. I love method books. I love band instrument books and got a bunch really cheap. They're good because they progress slowly and have a variety of material. I work on playing in different locations in the neck. I move up or down an octave. I change keys. I find it intrinsically rewarding. What I'm hoping is that I will start to feel this way about playing by ear because right now I find it too hard, I don't know if I'm doing it right, and I don't enjoy it. I don't know if I'm explaining this correctly.

I'm not very good at learning changes, but I'm getting better through sheer repetition. This goes along with learning chords in general.

[smokinguit]

I'm lost. I've been trying to listen and play with Aebersolds and other play-alongs, but everytime I try, I end up feeling confused and that I should give up because I am incompetent, have a tin ear, and flat don't get it.

You are not ready to use Aebersold, so put that away and do simpler things. Don't be frustrated. Do things like hearing the roots of chords, chord progressions without any extensions added using BIAB as mentioned above (key one for jazz being ii-V-I), and continue to listen a lot to this music.

[pamosmusic]

I work on playing in different locations in the neck. I move up or down an octave. I change keys. I find it intrinsically rewarding.

Ever try doing those things with changes? Take it two measures at a time? Literally work on one chord first ..


The tune Autumn Leaves can be broken down into a dozen or so single chords. Play for a whole day on just the Cmin7 chord. Get ideas. Work on it all over the neck. Get comfortable with it. Then do the same thing with F7. Then BbMaj7. Then EbMaj7... etc ... then do the same thing with Cmin7 - F7. Then F7 to BbMaj7 etc etc .... then Cmin7 - F7 - BbMaj7, then F7 -BbMaj7 - EbMaj7 ... you get it.

Practice the changes the same way you practice all this other stuff. Don't just play them and expect them to be internalized by "sheer repetition" ... it doesn't work that way and by reading your description of how you work on your scales and studies I think you know that too.

[StanG]

2 avenues to try:

!) get a looper and perhaps a bass pedal: you can create your on "backing tracks" at whatever tempo you want. Very helpful for working on sections of a tune; and

2) put the abersolds into a slow down software like transcribe. Let's you slow the tune down to a manageable tempo. sometimes I will use the notes function and put the chords in, to help clarify where in the tune I am at.

[Guitarzen]

What I'm hoping is that I will start to feel this way about playing by ear because right now I find it too hard, I don't know if I'm doing it right, and I don't enjoy it.

Yeah basically everything takes practice, including playing by ear. Of course as a jazz musician, I don't just play by ear alone. I also use tools such as counting, my ability to read a chart, some knowledge of theory etc...but still I use my ear plenty. I was self taught on guitar for my first 6 years, and by the end that 6 years I was able to play jazz at (I think) a fairly proficient basic level, at least I knew all of my chord grips, scales, modes, and arpeggios up the whole neck, and could generally stay with the changes on a good day ;o) And then I went and got formal training in music. So the first 6 years I was relying heavily on my ears when I started as a music major in college and I was so far behind everyone else in the reading department. So it was a real struggle to get with the program and get my reading skills up. My previous 6 years of relying on my ears actually made this entire process much easier as I could hear a melody once or twice and almost have it memorized by ear, which would help me fake my way through the reading process. I mean what I lacked in ability to sight read, I made up for a bit with my ability to hear something and learn it that way. So it seems like you are in kind of the reverse situation I was -- using your ears is very uncomfortable and you feel stronger with the reading. It's just a matter of practice. You will get it as long as you stick to it and don't give up. You should really try to enjoy it because I think enjoying what you are doing is an important part of learning. I've enjoyed every second of every minute that I have spent on music, whether it was learning a Pat Martino style lick or how to sing an Italian aria or writing a Bach style fugue. I've never had any negative feeling about music I was working on...I might get that feeling if I tried to learn some hip-hop or country music, but If I did feel that way I wouldn't waste time on it. Maybe playing jazz isn't really what you want to do?

[euterpe]

I dealt with a lot of these problems when I first started.

I'd say it helps do choose a song with a head/melody to start off with. The aebersold tracks are good, but I think you're referring to the one where you're playing over Fm, and Ebm and Dm for 16 bars, 8 bars or 4 bars.

Maybe grab a list of beginner standards and listen to them, choose one you like, learn to sing it, tap your foot with it etc as others have mentioned. Get that melody IN your head. The melody can really help guide you to find your place in the song.

It sounds like you really need to work on rhythm. Metheny shows an exercise where you just play quarter notes with a metronome and feel/imagine all of the triplets of each beat. This sounds really easy but when you're doing it right you'll really feel an intense groove that you could almost dance to when you do it. Look for Pat metheny seminar on youtube and you'll find it.

You should be able to hear the subdivisions of triplets over everything you do, or sixteenths if it's like a latin tune. I can't overstate how important this is to get good time, or at least how much it helped me and a lot of people I know.

Then you can try playing the melody and/or changes of a song while tapping your foot to it and hearing the subdivisions.

As for soloing over a tune, you need to be keeping your place rhythmically AND be able to honestly hear what's going on harmonically or you're going to rely on playing out of a pattern/arp cause you know it should work but not cause you hear it in your head and KNOW it will work. You gotta be able to really groove with melody and changes before you start blasting out meaningful solos.

Also, doing everything in bite size chunks that aren't overwhelming, master them with great feeling/time and then move on and add to it. But don't rush foundational stuff or you're just going to be wasting time in the long run even if something seems easy now. Some method books like Mikey Baker's Jazz method, have you working for quite a while on specific lessons (1-2 weeks?) to make sure they're fully internalized.

Hope this helps, just my 2 cents. Sorry for the novel, I just REALLY relate to where you're coming from, but this is what helped me make progress when I started.

[euterpe]

I'd also second the enjoyment aspect of playing. You gotta enjoy it. For me, really digging in with the rhythm is what makes music fun. If I'm not slamming in with the rhythm, playing over changes leaves me only thinking of harmony which isn't where the life is in music, for me at least.

[East to Wes]

Yeah basically everything takes practice, including playing by ear. Of course as a jazz musician, I don't just play by ear alone. I also use tools such as counting, my ability to read a chart, some knowledge of theory etc...but still I use my ear plenty. I was self taught on guitar for my first 6 years, and by the end that 6 years I was able to play jazz at (I think) a fairly proficient basic level, at least I knew all of my chord grips, scales, modes, and arpeggios up the whole neck, and could generally stay with the changes on a good day ;o) And then I went and got formal training in music. So the first 6 years I was relying heavily on my ears when I started as a music major in college and I was so far behind everyone else in the reading department. So it was a real struggle to get with the program and get my reading skills up. My previous 6 years of relying on my ears actually made this entire process much easier as I could hear a melody once or twice and almost have it memorized by ear, which would help me fake my way through the reading process. I mean what I lacked in ability to sight read, I made up for a bit with my ability to hear something and learn it that way. So it seems like you are in kind of the reverse situation I was -- using your ears is very uncomfortable and you feel stronger with the reading. It's just a matter of practice. You will get it as long as you stick to it and don't give up. You should really try to enjoy it because I think enjoying what you are doing is an important part of learning. I've enjoyed every second of every minute that I have spent on music, whether it was learning a Pat Martino style lick or how to sing an Italian aria or writing a Bach style fugue. I've never had any negative feeling about music I was working on...I might get that feeling if I tried to learn some hip-hop or country music, but If I did feel that way I wouldn't waste time on it. Maybe playing jazz isn't really what you want to do?

Thanks for sharing your experience.

As for your last question, my response is long and complicated. I'll spare you all the details, but I can sum it up this way. I like the approach of jazz. It suits my personality. I like reading music, and I like "classical" music (opera is my favorite music), but working on playing from the written score and only from the score doesn't appeal to me beyond a certain point. I like the flexibility and fluidity and creativity of jazz. And I like jazz. It's not the only music I like, but that's okay.

[East to Wes]

Thanks to everyone for the comments. It's given me a lot to think about.

I had some success yesterday with the play along, and it left me feeling positive about working with it. That's been my main obstacle. I just need to keep thinking of ways to break it down into smaller chunks, slow it down, and make it enjoyable.

[vintagelove]

Thanks to everyone for the comments. It's given me a lot to think about.

I had some success yesterday with the play along, and it left me feeling positive about working with it. That's been my main obstacle. I just need to keep thinking of ways to break it down into smaller chunks, slow it down, and make it enjoyable.

Quick question before I comment. Can you figure out simple rock/country etc tunes quickly by ear? Like listen through once and pretty much know what the changes are.

[Joe Piler]

East to Wes I'm a beginner in jazz as well and I see some parallels with my own experience.
I could learn the chord progression and play it without a chord sheet , learning All the Things You Are
was a major accomplishment at the time, if I tried to improvise I would be lost within a few bars.

Then I took a lesson from a jazz guitarist teacher and he taught me about jazz voice leading.
Because jazz moves in 4ths, the b7th of the chord you are playing will lead to the 3rd of the next chord.
So all of a sudden I wasn't thinking of the chord progression as much as the arpeggios and landing on the b7th at the end of the bar,
which leads down a fret to the 3rd of the next chord. To me that was the epiphany.

Now I get heaps of pleasure in just playing arps around a 251 or a 6251.
I hope this helps you as well.
Col.

Hi, could you please explain your epiphany?
soloing a little around 251 progressions is my first goal, I mean, just easy soloing.
do you have an example, maybe a video to explain?
i have the feeling I'm missing an important thing, don't know what...
thanks!

[jzucker]

if that is happening to you, you're probably not quite ready to be using the play-alongs. I would advise getting a teacher who can help you build a foundation from the ground up. Unfortunately, one of the worst things you can do is take group-advice from the chat-forums.

[matt.guitarteacher]

if that is happening to you, you're probably not quite ready to be using the play-alongs. I would advise getting a teacher who can help you build a foundation from the ground up. Unfortunately, one of the worst things you can do is take group-advice from the chat-forums.

Had to chuckle reading this. My kids would call this a "dad" answer, but it's a pretty good one. 5 minutes with a living, breathing person in front of you showing you things and talking to you about them is probably worth hours reading text about it.

[jzucker]

nobody can give you advice without hearing and watching you play. Any advice you get on a forum is worth what you're paying for it.