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Originally Posted by East to Wes
It sounds like you need a lot of ear training then. You really need to be able to hear simple diatonic chord progressions like it was second nature. Almost more importantly, it seems you might not understand why those simple chord progressions work. You should almost expect what the next chord is in simple tunes. If your having trouble figuring out a country song, your chances of hearing changes in a jazz tune is slim to none.
The best simple advise I can give you is immerse yourself in the blues until you can literally hear that IV and V chord in your head. Being able to keep your place in that simple form is step one.
A great teacher is what you really need. Good luck with everything!!!
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04-20-2015 10:23 PM
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Jack, are you saying your own advice is worthless because you're not charging us for it? Originally Posted by jzucker
There is an irony in advising people on a chat forum to ignore advice on chat forums....(That is, if you take the advice given on a chat forum to ignore the advice given on a chat forum then you're taking advice given on a chat forum which means that at least in this case, you're NOT ignoring advice given on a chat forum but rather, taking it. )
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The advice may not be worth a whole lot when compared to paying a teacher and sitting down face to face with someone. But, when passing the hours without a guitar, this advice is priceless. The little tid-bits that experienced players share with beginners sticks in our heads. When we are sitting down with a guitar, you may think "Oh yeah, So and So suggested only playing in first position, or So and So suggested sticking with Band in a Box." Keep up the great advice, I know I use it all the time.
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...I was thinking the exact same thing. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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But Jzucker is right! Without hearing the person asking for advice, what level are we talking about, how's the fundamentals etc. any advice would be like blind lead blind.
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I mean ... the dude didn't ask for us to correct his technique and evaluate the content of a solo or give him grand ideas on how to direct his practice over the next decade.
He asked why he was having trouble making it through playalongs. General consensus seems to be - he doesn't know the tune well enough. I don't need $80 for my trouble on that one. Though perhaps he's using an old CD and it's skipping...
One could say the same thing about the gear threads ... Gosh ... taking advice about this purchase you're considering from an internet forum is so dumb ... if it's worth your time to ask then it's worth your time go talk to your local luthier or high end amp tech...
whoops.
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Though I'll obviously concede that an hour lesson is worth eleven-twelve years of forum going...
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Well, damn, how come no one thought of that before?? Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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How do you play?
You say yu can't play with play-along.
But what do you try to play? What for do you need to know chords? You apply scales or patterns or licks?
You associate these with every single chord or with a few chords in progression?
Working with a song as I suggested once to a friend of mine:
1) listen to a singer - something good but quite straight like Tony Beenet e.g.
2) get the chart and analyze the song - the form sections - the chord changes - how you could group and connect them them - how melody relates harmony (both pitch-wise and rythmically) - dig into lyrics it often helps to avoid cliches in phraisng over common changes
3) learn the melody - make fingering related to harmony (whatevere reference you use - shapes, scales etc)
4) comp it - try various ways of comping - four to the bar, sparse, walking base (you can try base alone)... just make sure you can swing it all through singing the melody..
5) comp with play along - with/without piano (aebersolds allow to switch off piano channel) or some record to feel the reference between chords
6) record comping for yourself (not BIAB just comp yourself)
Feel free with it all. If you really do that (and if you had enough knowledge to do it - from your post I suggest that there are some problems though) then you're pretty much into the song now.
Might take long time - a month or so.. but it's not with every song.. it's practice to handle next ones easily
then try to listen to yourself. Try to hear what you're after - do not think of scales, chords, licks... the song is now in you, just try to hear something and then try to pick it up...
Believe me - it may be 2-3 notes only - but you really get them up there from your hearing it will be experience that's worth all the scales you try to put over changes....
PS
And at least name the song please...Last edited by Jonah; 04-22-2015 at 03:34 PM.
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I re-read your post now... may be I am wrong...
Probably you're stuck in 'eye-music' -quite common for classical students (I know you're not but)... I noticed my daughter when she did not study quite properly - she knew all the notes correctly and knew piano keys to play but signs of notes meant the key for her - not the sounds...
It becomes a kind of tab in this case...
I had this problem in my teens at certain point too too.. I could solve contrapunctal problem on paper without actually hearing what I solve...
I believe that practical harmony can help... practical meaning to play and hear in music how harmony works in realtions and context... you shoud not hear 'a chord' - you should hear a character -(or call it meaning) of turnaround... connection of chord...
I understand what chord I can hear because I hear what is before and what is after it... like simplest ii-v-i it's cadence you undestand the chords are because you hear the whole changes
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Yes, this is it exactly. Originally Posted by Jonah
I also have a hard time focusing on harmony. My ear always gravitates to melody in a song. I used to assume everyone was like that, but I've talked to someone for whom rhythm is the thing she most focuses on, so I assume there must also be people for whom harmony is their focus--the aspect of music they are most drawn to and have the easiest time remembering and singing, etc.
Btw, the book I'm using doesn't have melodies/songs. It's for practicing scales, etc.Last edited by East to Wes; 04-22-2015 at 07:37 PM.
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If you're like me... My problem was that I spent so much of my time playing without backing tracks. When I did this, if, for example, my line was occasionally 5 beats instead of 4 beats I wouldn't even notice and just keep playing along merrily as can be.
I just had to bite the bullet and spend a bunch of time practicing with backing tracks to break my bad habits. Another great help for me was Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soling by Joe Elliot. You spend a lot of time in that book playing consequtive 8th notes with no rests and variations over common chord changes. This really sharpens you up.
You don't need a great ear to play with the Abersol backing tracks, all you really need is to really know the tune and be able to keep track of the changes. I'm no expert, pretty much forever a beginner really... but I can play over changes and keep track of changes without even hearing them from a backing track which I have found is a good exercise. For example:
Last edited by fep; 04-22-2015 at 11:02 PM.
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Thanks. Enjoyed the Autumn Leaves improv. Do you play that without looking at anything? Or do you look at a lead sheet or what? What do you think about as you play? The melody? The harmony? Do you think in four- or eight-bar phrases?
I've seen that book on Amazon as well as a few by Joseph Alexander that look intriguing. I'm trying not to buy any more books right now. I have a bunch on the backburner already or that I've only worked through parts of.
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I see... yes each of us has some tendency in hearing - stipulated by culture we live in...Yes, this is it exactly.
I also have a hard time focusing on harmony. My ear always gravitates to melody in a song. I used to assume everyone was like that, but I've talked to someone for whom rhythm is the thing she most focuses on, so I assume there must also be people for whom harmony is their focus--the aspect of music they are most drawn to and have the easiest time remembering and singing, etc.
Btw, the book I'm using doesn't have melodies/songs. It's for practicing scales, etc.
Nevertheless musical language belongs to culture and tradition... so it is important to understand those elements that are involved in certain musical language
In music where harmony is the crucial engine the melody represents harmony in most cases... so if you hear say a theme of Bach fugue - you already should hear possible chords behind it - if you do not hear it then you wont understand the further logic of development of that theme.
The same melody can be approached from modal point of you - but we should consider context... with Bach it would just incorrect.
It's like trying to understand Van Gogh considering only lines and ignoring the colours...
Anyway.. if your ears gravitate to melody - it is some realtions that you hear within the melody, important to find which relations there are that you catch and hear...
To be practical... you might offer any song that you feel yourself familiar enough and I can try to show how I would suggest to go through it...
PS
I do not feel myself a teacher here just share what I think might be helpful... so excuse me if I sound kind of mentor
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Hi, not an expert by any means but working through similar issues.
Someone in another message mentioned Transcribe software which could be very helpful. You can slow the track down which is super useful. It sounds like you are a visual person, Transcribe can has a cool feature and where you can mark beats and measures off in the track. As the track plays in the software you can visually see where the music is (e.g. measure 1, 2, 3 etc) and if you know the chords your ear and brain start connecting the music to changes. You can also work on say 4 bars at at time to make it bite-sized and manageable.
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Hi Wes, Originally Posted by East to Wes
When learning a tune, I like to get away from the paper as quickly as possible so that I'm not using a lead sheet.
When I'm playing I'm always aware of the harmony. More specifically I'm aware of the chord grips on the guitar and I'm playing over those. For me it's a chord grip 1st, the related arpeggio or scale or connecting chromatics come from the 'pictures' of chord grips. Even when I'm playing the melody or embellishing the melody, I line all that up with my chord grips.
Four or eight bar phrases? I'm really thinking of the chords and from this longer phrases would come out. I'm playing Autumn Leaves in Em, the first chords - Am, D7, Gmaj7, Cmaj7. My phrase will often be over those chords which is 4 bars. The Gmaj7 is a point of resolution. Add a bit for the Cmaj7 and then I'll often have another phrase that runs over the F#m7b5 B7 resolving on Em7. I think it just naturally falls out that way when you're really, really familar with the tune.Last edited by fep; 04-24-2015 at 11:11 AM.
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That's good advice no matter where you get it. Originally Posted by fep
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E2W, I have a few thoughts (bearing in mind Jack's not-inaccurate comments):
1. IIRC the Aebersolds come in different levels; pick the most beginner levels to start with. The tempos will be slower and the backing track will do less with substitutions, etc. Maybe start with ballads.
2. Just listen to the backing tracks without playing and count time. Learn to hear the relationship between the bass and drums because that's the foundation of what's going on and everything has to relate to that.
3. You do have to count time on every bar. Every musician in the band has to do this. It becomes automatic, something you feel rather than consciously count (straight 4/4 feels like this, swing 4/4 feels like this, 3/4 feels like this, 6/8 feels like this, bossa feels like this, etc.). Groove and time are perhaps the single most important aspect of jazz and music- the wrong note at the right time usually sounds better than the right note at the wrong time.
4. You will start to hear cadences rather than the individual chords (ii-V-I in major, ii-V-i in minor, vi-ii-V-I, etc.). Eventually, as Peter noted, you will hear the form rather than individual chords. Your ear will start to pick up tritone substitutions, you'll hear extensions and tensions and know what they are (b5, 9, 11, #11, 13, etc.). Eventually you'll hear where the piano is going and be able to contrast or resolve at will.
5. Learn the songs- melody and chords- so that you can play them without charts. Learn to transpose them into different keys; to do this you have to learn to play the intervals rather than the notes. You can already sing "Moon River" in five different keys without thinking about it, even if it runs out of your range in some keys; we should be able to do this on our instruments as well. I am not good at this...
6. This is an ongoing process and you will never reach the end. Jazz musicians who have been playing for 50 years still discover new things. Jazz is inexhaustible. This is so much of the fun of it- you are laying the foundations for this now.
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I'd say even better pick it up by ear from record you like... but in a future in some cases charts can be interesting too..When learning a tune, I like to get away from the paper as quickly as possible so that I'm not using a lead sheet.
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There's a learning curve...charts have their place...some folks can't hear jazz when they start out. Whatever gets you playing, I say. But yeah, eventually, you realize your ear is your most important asset.
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sure... and I put it in when described approach to a song.. I do use charts myself of course too. At some point it does not matter any more where yu get ut from - it's just a source
but in case of E2W it seems he has too much of charts
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Personally, I mostly practice using a loop pedal, so can I play along with myself and improve my comping/harmony.
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It seems that timing and hearing harmony are your main problems. The first thing to do is start at the beginning. Pick easy level Abersold. Count as the bars go by before you even pick up your guitar to see if you can keep your place. Listen for cues such as turnarounds and drum fills. Then comp with the bass and no piano. Play over and over and over until you start to recognize things. Its funny, some people seem to be natural time keepers and others not. The only way I can think that has helped me is practice with a metronome and always know where beat one is. A ping might help. You don't want to always start playing on beat one, but no harm to start with. You need to develop a sense or feel for one, two, four bars. Learning phrases those lengths may help. Eventually you will want to be able to play anything starting on any beat, but that may take years. It will happen. The other tool in the tool kit it aural training. The sooner you start to make it a priority the better. There's some quite good software, and CDs (Abersold does one) out there. Finally, patience and the knowledge that it will all start to piece together as long as you persist.
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