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Yeah the purist GJ cult thing I find a bit boring - it can be a bit like everyone learns the same licks etc.
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
How many guitarists do you need to be Stochelo Rosenberg or Angelo Debarre? I'd say they have it pretty cornered.
I really like this dude though, blazing his own trail:
I also like the way Julian Lage plays this type of music - in his own way. I also really like Vignola's playing, although a lot of the GJ police seem to scoff at him:
Last edited by christianm77; 09-14-2016 at 11:48 AM.
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09-14-2016 11:41 AM
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Love the tunes, but never really liked the GJ guitars. Put off by the rule of playing only GJ guitars by purists. But the music is great, love playing it, but like others said here, do it in my own style and with my own sound.
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It's funny: Usually when I'm invited to sit in I do. Sometimes, if I'm not comfortable in the style and don't feel I could contribute, I'll politely decline. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Like a few weeks ago a friend who has done thousands of these gigs invited me to sit in with a trad band he was in. He wanted the leader to hear me so I could sub for him sometime. I didn't b/c I hadn't played for a few days, and more to the point, don't know all the tunes he does in that style. I really thought it would be a let-down, so I said no. A corny singing banjo player did sit in, which is cool with me. My friend chewed me out on the ride back. 'Why the f didn't you play', etc. Maybe he was right, maybe we both were.
Some years ago a choro band was playing. I listened and fell in love. Clarinet (she since has become a star), 8-string guitars, bass, percussion, etc. Very little improvising on short vamps. They saw my gtr. and invited me up. No way. What could I possibly contribute to a music I'm hearing for the 1st time? I was happy to listen.
Am I hijacking your thread? Sorry, if so...
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I suppose it depends...
I'm definitely with you about digging when you're "out of your element," and I too, do NOT wnt to contribute if I don't think I can do what the music asks for.
But with Gypsy Jazz...it's still jazz...yet so many folks (usually non-gypsies, ironically) play it so close to the cuff...same licks, same tone...
I think about Django's electric sides he cut in the 50's. The guy was a trailblazer. And yet so many who worship him stay on the path more traveled.
The cats I love the most are the Ferre brothers...telepathic like communication, they can do traditional, but they do free form, classical pieces, Beatles tunes, Charlie Parker...nothing is sacred, everything is sacred. Some of the purest jazz I've ever heard.
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Grrrrr. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
The Maccaferri is not a a Gypsy Jazz guitar. It is simply a guitar.
I play everything on mine from Middle Eastern jazz fusion to Motown. When I need a loud, penetrating sound there's nothing to beat it.
On the other hand I saw Birelli Lagrene playing last week, and this was his axe of choice.
Last edited by christianm77; 09-14-2016 at 12:57 PM.
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They're really cool guitars. They just don't work for me ergonomically...kind of a bummer, I love the tone/volume.
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It's a balance, I think, between being open to learning, lack of fear and/or self-consciousness and knowing one's limitations. Also respect for the form if you don't know it that well. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I love Johnny Cash. Wouldn't dream of sitting in with a country band. I might try to write a country tune, though, after checking out the masters.
Re trailblazers/followers: When someone is original and a game-changer (originality and innovation being 2 different animals) the inevitable followers often defeat the purpose by copying/codifying. Then they may call themselves (or others may call them) 'keepers of the flame'. I find that possibly delusional, self-limiting and sad...
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That's exactly what I mean. Ergonomically it doesn't fit me at all. The one I have anyway, D-hole. Tone-wise... I'm in the camp that think they are basically only good for GJ. Very specific singular sound, great, but not versatile. Of course, you can play anything on anything, but given a choice I wouldn't. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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The resonator would probably win, but it's a very different sound. I must give one a try some day. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
I'll take my chance with the resonator
Last edited by christianm77; 09-14-2016 at 01:14 PM.
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you totally should! GJ purists will prolly stick to their gtrs forever, but I noticed more and more Hot jazz/NOLA/Trad guys using the resonators, and that what inspired me to try btw. That the only guitar that will keep up in a brass band, the next is only banjo, and who wants those lol (I do have a tenor though, but I'm so restricted by the tuning). Originally Posted by christianm77
If you do, get a good one, National or such... Pricey, but I wouldnt trust a cheap one.
Also, forced me to do Gypsy right hand method, because my usual wrist on the bridge doesn't work on the reso, the bridge is out of reach and you can't rest on it, haha.
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Ha that's interesting. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
TBH I don't play much traddy stuff these days, trying to move my playing into the distant future of the ... ooh .... late 1950s? :-)
I kind of want a good gigging flat-top actually. I know a lot of jazzers play nylons but I'm into the idea of a steel string. Maybe a Taylor or something.... Not quite justifiable ATM.
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Interesting. I have friends who have happily been playing on Gitane and Ciganos for much longer than a year and they are, happily, still in one piece. Pretty nice guitars for the $$ as well. Originally Posted by fasstrack
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My Altimira (Chinese made) is bearing up good since I got it 2012. It needs looking at for a buzz - but a think this might be down to the bridge slots being too deep...
The instrument on the whole seems very sound though. I have gigged it hard (I expect I've played around 500 gigs on it at least). A bit of maintenance is to be expected.
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The Gitanes and Ciganos are pretty durable.
And a "good" Gypsy jazz guitar is a lot more than 2k, sadly.
Truthfully, the Gitanes, with their laminated backs and sides, are built more like an old Selmer was anyway. The thing I find is that the higher end, solid wood lutheir built guitars are actually much more versatile, capable of much subtler tones as well as that gypsy "bark," whereas the Gitanes are kind of good at one thing, and you need to hit 'em pretty hard to make 'em do it.
I ended up selling mine because I really wasn't into playing it in the way it wanted to be played.
A friend of mine runs Caravan Guitars here in Chicago, so he's kind of my source for info and getting to try these things out. In the budget category, he's a really big fan of the Latcho Drom guitars, Dell Artes Chinese made line. They're pretty fantastic.
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I do like the Da Ponte's etc I've played. Fine guitars. As you say, AFAIK, if anything better and certainly more subtle than the guitars Django played. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
If I was shopping for another mid price GJ box, I would still get Altimira. They have some more higher end models too ($1000 up), all solid etc (still Chinese) they are like the Eastman of Selmacs IMO.
Altimira makes Latcho Drom, so probably, they are similar. Not sure about the budget Del Artes, which are cheaper. My student got a budget Del Arte. It was pretty decent, but the Altimira I think is better.
Altamira Guitars - DjangoBooks.com
The Altimiras are pretty loud and brash, not as subtle as a high end European guitar. Louder than Gitanes, for sure. Old school. Pretty consistent. Gitanes can be great but many aren't.
TBH I'm pretty happy with mine. It does the job. If I was more of GJ head I might be saving my shekels for something a bit better - and actually I think new handmade GJ guitars are very reasonably priced for what they are. But, in most situations I need to be either really loud and cutting, or amplified. In both situations a better guitar wouldn't make much difference.
Also, I think I'll save the money for a good archie.Last edited by christianm77; 09-14-2016 at 04:27 PM.
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Stochelo Rosenberg and Bireli Lagrene are two of my favorite guitarists, definitely on my top 10 guitarists of all time list. If you haven't listened to them do yourself a favor and look them up. I got into gypsy jazz for a bit and went to a regular gypsy jazz jam at some guys house for a while. I recently had a guitar student tell me he wants to learn gypsy jazz, and it took me by surprise because up to this point he was into metal! So now I'm kind of excited because that will give me an excuse to get back into gypsy jazz, I haven't done it in a long time.
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Metal/shred guys getting into GJ is very natural. Originally Posted by Guitarzen
TBH when I went to see Birelli last week and I enjoyed it, but his bass player, William Brunard, was the real star of the show, doubling the crazy line on Mouvements impeccably, and his solos where just amazing - Nils Orsted Peterson with attitude. I'm reminded of Ginger Rogers - 'did everything Fred Astaire did backwards, and in heels'.
Brunard also played what I thought was the best guitar solo all night (!) A musician to watch.
I also really dig Birelli's rhythm guy, the legendary Hono Winterstein. I think that's an amazing art - you just didn't miss the drums, really varied grooves and everything just locking in and swinging like anything. I think the rhythm guys can get a bit overlooked.
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I don't think being a purely rhythm guitarist in a Gypsy jazz band account for much though Originally Posted by christianm77
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Never be short of a gig Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
I don't think being a purely rhythm guitarist in a Gypsy jazz band account for much though
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So, in other words, if you don't play lead it's a plus? Originally Posted by christianm77
The way I see it in GJ: two guitarist, one plays lead and rhythm, another one just rhythm. There is no interaction, not in a way how other jazz styles are played, no playing off each other, strictly backing up. All the lead guitarists are great rhythm players too, by default. So how's it make it special to just play rhythm only?
Edit: not to put down anyone, just looking at it as an apprentice, a rookie position. The good players eventually want to branch off and become masters in their own role. I know this player who
played rhythm for Stephan for a long time, when he quit he became a leader of his own band. And he is fantastic soloist! Doing not just GJ, but Western swing as well, among other styles. So I guess that's my point.Last edited by Hep To The Jive; 09-14-2016 at 09:11 PM.
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Some players serve it as an apprenticeship and move onto lead. I know guys who have played rhythm for years and move to lead later. That is the tradition. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
But there are also players who specialise, at least in Europe, in rhythm. I happen to know guys who don't play lead at all. Pure rhythm. They are very good at rhythm. They aren't really interested in playing lead.
An example in London would be Dave Kelbie who plays rhythm guitar for Angelo Debarre. He doesn't do lead. At all. He might do a chord solo if you ask nicely.
In practical terms - two GJ lead guitarists gets a bit much.
It's quite good if you have one on electric, so you get some tonal variation. But sometimes it's nice to have pure acoustic guitars. In this case, I can see the appeal of playing with a pure rhythm guitar player. Basically it's like having a drummer. It's quite a thing to ask an excellent lead play to play rhythm only. You feel like a massive douche for doing it (not being Angelo etc :-)), although some guys offer. I feel bad, especially if I feel like the other guitarist is on a par with me, or better! But I don't want to play just time, on the other hand.
So then it becomes the guitar show. Which is fine for background gigs and sometimes can be fun for the audience. Sometimes.
As in any area, specialists in one area tend to be better at their specialism. And rhythm guitar is a separate discipline. You will be doing more playing at say Samois with good players, I bet, if you aren't just waiting to shred, and are a good rhythm cat. You will play hours and hours with high level lead players, and your rhythm will strengthen all the while without you having to distract your focus towards lead stuff.
Birelli for example, IMO, can't play like Hono anymore than Hono can shred like Birelli. It's a symbiotic relationship.
A lot of the dedicated rhythm guys look like they spend some serious time in the gym, too - it's very physical. They are almost like a different physical type to the lead players. Again it's like drums...
If you are the kind of person who is happy doing that and giving your time and support to the other musicians of the band without any kind of waiting for your turn to be the star, then of course you will be popular and get gigs. Why wouldn't you?
That person is not me.Last edited by christianm77; 09-14-2016 at 09:58 PM.
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Yeah I know guys like that here in NY too... It just makes me scratch my head.. I play with them sometimes at jams, and it beats me TBH, out of like 5 cats sitting there, all pretty much doing the same thing and take turns at solos, but that one guy says no I'm a Rhythm Player, and everybody is like ohhh! haha, but in reality he's not doing anything different, just not taking the leads! Once you can hold the tempos and play the right chords at the right time, you are good rhythm player in my book.
I'm not that guy either. I mean I LOVE playing rhythm, but I have too many ideas in my head to do just that. At least as far as playing standards in GJ idiom... I'd rather be a dedicated rhythm player in a rock band, at least you're playing original songs through a loud amp while rocking out with the crowd. But sitting on chair with just acoustic and LaPompeing every night playing the same damn tunes in a dark corner of some restaurant/club would put me in a serious mental condition.
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Rhythm playing is an art. If you think its nothing special, you probably aren't very good at it.
I've said it forever...to be a truly great rhythm pkayer--truly great--in any stle, is infinitely harder than being a "lead" player.
But mI still folks play shit boring accompanyment. Myself included.
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I play something resembling GJ fairly regularly with another guy.
I say "something resembling" because we play Selmac guitars, but would most definitely be arrested by the GJ police. I am more interested in American swing, so I end up playing in more of a Charlie Christian style, but picking close to the bridge and with a bit more syncopation. The other guy is a retired pro studio player and has a somewhat loose interpretation of the style. He plays circles around me and somehow manages to tolerate my efforts.
I hung around the Djangobooks forum for a while, but quickly grew tired of the dogmatism of the hardcore GJ dudes. (No offense to anyone -- there are some killer players over there.)
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I have performed at most of the US Django festivals and still play a lot of Django tunes, but at the end of the day, I am an American jazz guitarist who likes Django. If I was a Gypsy who grew up on hard core Gypsy jazz, perhaps I would sound more like Django, but I am an American who idolizes Wes Montgomery and Joe Pass.
I have a love hate relationship with Gypsy jazz guitars (I own two Duponts and have owned many others). They are great for an unamplified gig, but are pretty lousy plugged in. Frankly, archtop guitars are my favorite by far, but that is why there is chocolate and vanilla...
Here is how I do it:
I am playing a 1948 D'Angelico in that track. The other guitarist is playing a 1928 L-5
Here I am backing Country music singer Ginny Mitchell playing a Gypsy jazz guitar:
I am playing a Dupont MD-20 in this track. The other guitarist is playing a martin D-42
IMO, you can play Gypsy jazz on a non-Gypsy jazz guitar and vise-versa. Play what you like on the guitar of your choice. The only rule is do it well or stay home.
Cheers,
MarcLast edited by Stringswinger; 09-15-2016 at 01:52 PM.
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