Understanding Guitar Modes

[Paul J Edwards]

Bb is C#, and if you play a C#maj scale over a C chord, you are going to get some flavor, for sure . . .

I don't think you get it either.

Bb is not the same as C#. Bb is the same as A#. At least enharmonically.

[TerisMartinos]

Dear elixzer, just play all those scales hundreds and hundreds of times till your fingers can switch from one mode to another. I think this is the best way to learn and use them.

[elixzer]

Dear elixzer, just play all those scales hundreds and hundreds of times till your fingers can switch from one mode to another. I think this is the best way to learn and use them.

sorry to ask, but I have to. Which scales?

[wordsmith]

I think that the process of learning modes has a definite pattern to it for many students. First comes the initial look at the subject, then the beginning of study. There follows confusion, followed by what appears to be a degree of understanding, usually on the wrong track. Then comes even more confusion, when the student realises what he thought he understood was wrong. Mega confusion sets in, and then only time with one's head wrapped around it can sort things out. Then, one magical day, it suddenly all becomes crystal clear, leaving one wondering what the problem was for so long.

I have tried to analyise why the modes cause more study problems than anything else, but I still have no idea. Jody Fisher wrote that there are five ways to approach the modes. The two he uses in one of his books are 'parallel'.......seeing them as separate scales altogether, and 'derivative'.......coming from other scales.

What the other three approaches might be I have no idea.....but it adds nicely to the mystique .

My input here is just a recollection of how I got to understand them, by surfing the net and looking at as much as possible. There doesn't seem to be a single, definitive explanation anywhere, that would help everyone. It seems it has to be hit and miss for a while, for many.

[Noodler]

sorry to ask, but I have to. Which scales?

I think I know where you are confused.
Each mode is a different "scale." (Yep I know that's not strictly correct, it's a mode of a certain scale, but I'm making a point that's already been made in different words)

So yep, that means learning 7 new scales. You know the shape of your first position major scale of course. It has its own shape and you can move it anywhere easily and without thinking. Well each of the modes has its own shape and can be moved anywhere too. But each mode is a different shape. If you happen to find that you already find these shapes familiar because you know your major scale positions, great, but I wouldn't be thinking back to figuring out where the mode came from, that's like reinventing the wheel everytime you want to go for a bike ride! G mixolydian is much simpler seen as G with a b7 than the 5th mode of C. You know your G major scale, so it's just a matter of flattening the 7th. Easy.

I think the "D Dorian is just C major but starting on D" is a long-cut and that's why your head was hurting. No. It is not actually the major scale starting on a different note (Shh, pedants). It is it's own scale with its own step-pattern, its own shape, its own sound. At least if you learn them that way your head will stop hurting.

You can use the C major, D Dorian, E phrygian thing as a crutch, but it's actually quicker to just learn 7 shapes than try and bend you head around using a scale with a different root. Then if you want to play in Bb or in G, it's no problem. You can move your major scale which you know already to any key without thinking, right? So why not learn the shape of Dorian and stop doing your head in? I think in scale degrees as someone said earlier too, like "how does this mode differ from the major scale?"

Taken together, lots of great advice in this thread . I'll be rereading it. I just think to "get it" you have to forget about the C major thing that you see in textbooks under "modes for beginners." Instead of C Ionian, D Dorian, E phrygian, learn instead A Ionian, A dorian, A phrygian. ie see each one individually. Or at least get away from c major as your starting point. You can still be aware of that information and know it, but learn them relative to E major or something. Anything, just get past the c ionian, d dorian thing. It's a hindrance to understanding.

Best advice: time with your guitar. Thanks for all the great advice in this thread, especially the one about harmonising.

[elixzer]

I think this is why questions are important. From my own experience, I sense that the beginner starts off--if they are outgoing--with questions, a real open eagerness to learn. So they may ask questions, and some may seem naive of course to the experienced.
But, there can be phases where some oddity creeps in. Like you saw Wordsmith, that feeling that you thought you understand then something throws you...
Now I am feeling this. For when I hear that for example:

D dorian is the Second Degree of C major.

I understand that to mean, that it is the second note. Now we know it is not C # because Cmj has no sharps. OK

BUT, when I later hear that C# is the second degree of Bb that twists my lemon (logic)---because i am trying to match the two meanings and they dont gell.
For if D dorian is second degree, I see 2 half steps--from C to D. But from Bb to C# I am seeing 3 half steps...?

WHAT then does 'second degree' mean I suppose is the obvious question then?

[wordsmith]

E Phrygian has no sharps or flats, as it is the third mode of C major.

And Csharp is not in the major scale of C major. It is in the key( one of 12 ) but not in the major scale. Modes are based on major and minor scales only, ie the scales built from seven notes of each key...... a scale degree is specifically a note in the scale, not just in the key. So in the key of D, the second degree is E, and so on.

Scale of Bb major.....Bb C D Eb F G A Bb

Scale of B major.......B Csharp Dsharp E Fsharp Gsharp Asharp B

You just got mixed up with the B, Bb, C and Csharp. Sorry I have no 'sharp' symbol on this computer.

[Paul J Edwards]

BUT, when I later hear that C# is the second degree of Bb that twists my lemon (logic)---because i am trying to match the two meanings and they dont gell.
For if D dorian is second degree, I see 2 half steps--from C to D. But from Bb to C# I am seeing 3 half steps...?

WHAT then does 'second degree' mean I suppose is the obvious question then?

C# is not the second degree of a BbMajor scale. Whoever told you that does not know what they are talking about.

C is the second degree of a Bb Major Scale.

[likeshisjazz134679]

A suggestion for you to try.

Get a bit of paper, draw round a cup or cd for a circle, and mark in twelve points like a clock.

These represent the 12 half steps on any one string.

Only write in the natural notes starting with C at the 12 o clock. Miss 1 because thats C#, 2 o clock would be D, 4 is E, 5 is F etc.
You now have the seven degrees.

This pattern of whole steps/ half steps never changes for the modes of the major scale, regardless of key.

Now look at the page from a different angle, with D at the top of the circle, its now Dorian. Nothing changes, only your perspective.

[elixzer]

I think I know where you are confused.
Each mode is a different "scale." (Yep I know that's not strictly correct, it's a mode of a certain scale, but I'm making a point that's already been made in different words)

So yep, that means learning 7 new scales. You know the shape of your first position major scale of course. It has its own shape and you can move it anywhere easily and without thinking. Well each of the modes has its own shape and can be moved anywhere too. But each mode is a different shape. If you happen to find that you already find these shapes familiar because you know your major scale positions, great, but I wouldn't be thinking back to figuring out where the mode came from, that's like reinventing the wheel everytime you want to go for a bike ride! G mixolydian is much simpler seen as G with a b7 than the 5th mode of C. You know your G major scale, so it's just a matter of flattening the 7th. Easy.

I think the "D Dorian is just C major but starting on D" is a long-cut and that's why your head was hurting. No. It is not actually the major scale starting on a different note (Shh, pedants). It is it's own scale with its own step-pattern, its own shape, its own sound. At least if you learn them that way your head will stop hurting.

You can use the C major, D Dorian, E phrygian thing as a crutch, but it's actually quicker to just learn 7 shapes than try and bend you head around using a scale with a different root. Then if you want to play in Bb or in G, it's no problem. You can move your major scale which you know already to any key without thinking, right? So why not learn the shape of Dorian and stop doing your head in? I think in scale degrees as someone said earlier too, like "how does this mode differ from the major scale?"

Taken together, lots of great advice in this thread . I'll be rereading it. I just think to "get it" you have to forget about the C major thing that you see in textbooks under "modes for beginners." Instead of C Ionian, D Dorian, E phrygian, learn instead A Ionian, A dorian, A phrygian. ie see each one individually. Or at least get away from c major as your starting point. You can still be aware of that information and know it, but learn them relative to E major or something. Anything, just get past the c ionian, d dorian thing. It's a hindrance to understanding.

Best advice: time with your guitar. Thanks for all the great advice in this thread, especially the one about harmonising.

Ok.....................To simplify what your just said
You are encouraging me to go find the shapes/forumlas/patterns of the modes, and practice them as scales?
that would be understanding their step patterns?
Rather than relating say 'd dorian' to C mj ?
have I got you right?

[elixzer]

Nice chart but only serves to confuse.

This concept is so simple that you don't need a chart.

Just hear it.

Lay down a low E eighth note rhythm. EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
and play a Dmajor scale over it. Jam this way for a bit and you will hear it. It sounds like a minor flavor. E minor or E dorian E is the second mode of a D major scale. Dig?

Whenever you come across a ii V I use the I as the scale you play over the ii chord.

Dmin G7 C

Play a C scale over the Dmin. Emphasize the D in that C major scale as the root note.
How do you play D dorian? By playing the second mode in a C major scale!!

You mean this one Paul?
I promise you I hadn't forgotten it! I have just dont it. I recorded me playing EEEEEEEEEEEEE. and then played dmj scale over it and hey presto it DOES sound a minor chord

Am a little though wondering about this "Whenever you come across a ii V I use the I as the scale you play over the ii chord."

i cant somehow put the two togther...?
this is because, although i am familiar with these chords being very familiar in Jazz, I am not au fe with experimenting yet. though i have done one recording of that

[Bill_J]

I realize that this discussion has been done to death, but there is one more thing that I believe needs to be clarified.

The suggestions here have generally taken one of two approaches, and mixing them up in your mind could cause confusion. We are all referencing the key of 'C'. We are assuming that you're starting from a Cmaj chord and imporvising over it. The suggestions then go in two different directions:

1. The suggestion is that you stay in the key of C, and explore how the modes relate to standard chords that occur within that key, That is the approach that I took.

Look at the chords in a II V I progression in C and try to understand how the modes apply to playing over those changes: D Dorian, G Mix, C Ionian.

2. The second approach is to stay on the C chord and look at the various modal statements you can make using C Ionian, C Mix, C Dorian, etc.

These are both useful and will result in a greater understanding of how the modes work. However, they involve a different approach to learning the nature of the modes and you need to keep that straight in your head, otherwise, some of that legendary confusion can develop,

Bill

[John Curran]

I think I know where you are confused.
Each mode is a different "scale." (Yep I know that's not strictly correct, it's a mode of a certain scale, but I'm making a point that's already been made in different words)

So yep, that means learning 7 new scales. You know the shape of your first position major scale of course. It has its own shape and you can move it anywhere easily and without thinking. Well each of the modes has its own shape and can be moved anywhere too. But each mode is a different shape. If you happen to find that you already find these shapes familiar because you know your major scale positions, great, but I wouldn't be thinking back to figuring out where the mode came from, that's like reinventing the wheel everytime you want to go for a bike ride! G mixolydian is much simpler seen as G with a b7 than the 5th mode of C. You know your G major scale, so it's just a matter of flattening the 7th. Easy.

I think the "D Dorian is just C major but starting on D" is a long-cut and that's why your head was hurting. No. It is not actually the major scale starting on a different note (Shh, pedants). It is it's own scale with its own step-pattern, its own shape, its own sound. At least if you learn them that way your head will stop hurting.

You can use the C major, D Dorian, E phrygian thing as a crutch, but it's actually quicker to just learn 7 shapes than try and bend you head around using a scale with a different root. Then if you want to play in Bb or in G, it's no problem. You can move your major scale which you know already to any key without thinking, right? So why not learn the shape of Dorian and stop doing your head in? I think in scale degrees as someone said earlier too, like "how does this mode differ from the major scale?"

Taken together, lots of great advice in this thread . I'll be rereading it. I just think to "get it" you have to forget about the C major thing that you see in textbooks under "modes for beginners." Instead of C Ionian, D Dorian, E phrygian, learn instead A Ionian, A dorian, A phrygian. ie see each one individually. Or at least get away from c major as your starting point. You can still be aware of that information and know it, but learn them relative to E major or something. Anything, just get past the c ionian, d dorian thing. It's a hindrance to understanding.

Best advice: time with your guitar. Thanks for all the great advice in this thread, especially the one about harmonising.

I would completely disagree with just about everything you've said in this post.

D dorian IS C major, it just starts and ends on a different note. What could be simpler?

To learn each mode as a separate scale involves learning 7 different scales in 12 different keys, that's 84 different scales! Couple that with the fact that there are at least two sometimes three different ways to finger the same scale on a guitar and you're talking 250 some-odd scales. It doesn't have to be that complicated!

The one consistent problem I've noticed on this thread is that some posters do not fully understand their major keys. You need to know that E major has an F# in it and not an F natural BEFORE you begin to tackle the modes.

Again, once you know your major keys and scales, the modes are simply the same major scales starting on different notes.

Also, the purpose of studying modal scales isn't just to know a bunch of scales, the idea is to have the freedom to weave in and out of different key centers (via scales) starting on any note of the scale. It's really just a way of having every inversion of the major scale 'under your fingers'.


john

[wordsmith]

.....that any attempt to tackle modes is a fruitless exercise until the basic major and minor scales are mastered......and I mean mastered, more than just knowing a major scale is WWHWWWH. Mastered in the sense of being able to use them fluidly, all over the fretboard, and incorporate them into musical contexts, creatively.
Like, the modes are the step after this mastery, and become a logical extension of this mastery, and not some kind of mysterious separate entity.

So perhaps the greatest cause of the confusion is impatience, a desire to run before being able to walk, so to speak.

[Gabe2099]

C major : C - D - E - F - G - A - B - C

E major : E - F#- G#- A - B - C# - D# - E

if you take the formula for Phrygian ( r - b2 - b3 - 4 - 5 - b6 - b7 - 8) and apply it to the E major scale:

E phrygian: E - F - G - A - B - C - D - E

you flatted the F# (2nd), G# (3rd), C# (6th), D#(7th) from the E major scale and now you have a phrygian mode, but more importantly, you are basically playing a C major scale over an E minor chord. say you hear an A minor chord and you play the same old C major scale, it becomes the A aeolian mode.

i had a hard time with the modes too, hopefully you can get enlightened right here in these forums like i did about 4 months ago. i wish you luck and, like pierre would say, "all you need is time on the instrument..."

[elixzer]

.....that any attempt to tackle modes is a fruitless exercise until the basic major and minor scales are mastered......and I mean mastered, more than just knowing a major scale is WWHWWWH. Mastered in the sense of being able to use them fluidly, all over the fretboard, and incorporate them into musical contexts, creatively.
Like, the modes are the step after this mastery, and become a logical extension of this mastery, and not some kind of mysterious separate entity.

So perhaps the greatest cause of the confusion is impatience, a desire to run before being able to walk, so to speak.

Thanks Gabe2099 , coming here was one of my best moves! I have learned so much over the last few days. I thank you all

And thank YOU so much wordsmith, and this latest post of yours really puts it all into perspective and has inspired me since I read it to at last really it really get it through why learning all the major scales, and minor scales, is so extremely important. Hence nearly all day yesterday I am practising scales scales scales
It makes so much sense that when you know them like the back of your hand then you can interweave modes/flavours into playing more and more smoothly, dramatically

Only this time last week I had been at another site where the teacher had advised learning all the scales, and I had wondered 'what is the point?'

A HUGE thing for beginners/intermediate in any skill i feel is to ask WHY?......why Am I doing this? And when we know, when it sinks in, that is the meaning....and things then dont seem so mechanical, and you feel inspired to learn, instead of to get 'somewhere' too fast...

[franco6719]

The one thing I might recommend that I don't think has been mentioned is actually learning to play the modes along with modal tunes. One of my private teachers took this sort of approach at Berklee. You probably first have to get, say, the Dorian mode under your fingers well enough in at least one or two positions. Then he would assign a modal tune or a tune that emphazized that scale or mode.

Obviously, in the case of Dorian, you start playing over So What (and listening to versions of it). The idea, I think, was simply to start putting the mode into practical application as soon as possible. Historically, that's (part of) what the modal tunes were all about anyway. This is part of the answer to the above question: what is the point? Well, it is at least useful to know the modes to play over modal tunes!

Anyway, he would assign something like "La Fiesta" to get the sound and the sense of phrygian. And so on. I don't remember any Lydian tunes.

Once I wanted to work on trying to improvise with Whole tone scales and sounds. Guess which tune: Juju by Wayne Shorter is practically an outlet to exercise whole tone stuff.

[Noodler]

I would completely disagree with just about everything you've said in this post.

D dorian IS C major, it just starts and ends on a different note. What could be simpler?

To learn each mode as a separate scale involves learning 7 different scales in 12 different keys, that's 84 different scales! Couple that with the fact that there are at least two sometimes three different ways to finger the same scale on a guitar and you're talking 250 some-odd scales. It doesn't have to be that complicated!

The one consistent problem I've noticed on this thread is that some posters do not fully understand their major keys. You need to know that E major has an F# in it and not an F natural BEFORE you begin to tackle the modes.

Again, once you know your major keys and scales, the modes are simply the same major scales starting on different notes.

Also, the purpose of studying modal scales isn't just to know a bunch of scales, the idea is to have the freedom to weave in and out of different key centers (via scales) starting on any note of the scale. It's really just a way of having every inversion of the major scale 'under your fingers'.


john

Whoa! Did you read this:

Each mode is a different "scale." (Yep I know that's not strictly correct, it's a mode of a certain scale, but I'm making a point that's already been made in different words)

I would recommend:

1. The OP take the time to learn just one octave of each mode. That's not too hard is it? Just enough to see that a mode is it's own thing. Been said before. It IS a different step pattern.

2. To use that mode against a chord, or a note, as suggested already.

3. Then to extend that octave and see that "wait, hang on, this all look familiar. I already know these shapes somehow..."

4. Then to relate it back to being a mode of a different scale.

The OP came here already knowing that D dorian is the C major scale starting on C. I'm trying to make it movable for him so if I say play me an Ab phrygian, it's not like "Hmm phrygian is like E is to C, but we are in Ab. C is the 3rd of Ab, so"....oops, chord has changed, took too long.

He also knew that

the modes are the modes are simply the same major scales starting on different notes.

Major or minor but yeah. He knew that too. I knew that too for years. Didn't help me use them.

Please explain the last paragraph more. If you're in A and when the chord goes to E7, if you play E mix., you've done nothing! (You're just still playing A major) The point of using modes, IMO, is to use different step patterns to make your playing have more variety. Agree or disagree?
eg What other modes might you use against the V7 chord?

Since the rest of the post seemed aimed at me, I know my key signatures BTW. Have I made an error?

[Joe Dalton]

For me modes are just a simple way to react to changes.
Structure for learning to me would be Chord structure > Major scale > It's modes > Changes

[likeshisjazz134679]

I just remembered one of the methods that got modes under my fingers quickly. It was a book called "Advanced Modern Rock Improvisation by Jon Finn"

His way was to take a pentatonic position and add 2 notes into the largest box in the pattern. For example, the same fingering for dorian moved down a b3rd is Lydian for the same root. All you had to know was your pentatonics, and recognise the 4 notes that make up the big box.

His other way was, like noodlers suggestion, to learn 1 octave patterns, and this way you see how they all overlap each other, across the neck and up and down.

I still use his method to get me out of trouble sometimes, its that simple to use.

[Joe Dalton]

What he means is that Db myxo and F locrian are the same. So if your last note on the E myxo for example the last note before the change is E or F# the line follows well into the F, the relating mode to it being locrian.
Quick way to alter your vision of the fretboard to your change.

[Noodler]

I'm glad you wrote back John, thanks. I look forward to picking your brain in the other thread.

Some forums are more for pro's and that's OK. There's one I belong to called TelecasterDPRI where a lot of the guys are pro players from Nashville and around America. You work that out pretty soon. I still visit there for reference, but tend to just "listen in" rather than post. You obviously know your stuff, Banksia's doing music school full-time, another guy I've met on here went to Berklee...

I found a couple of youtube videos relating to the modes and what they sound like. This one is especially interesting, because it's all aural.

Elixer, are you around?

[Bill_J]

I have taken a number of "advanced" (I use the term advisedly) workshops on improvising, and modes were always a sticking point . . . even for many skilled and, otherwise, knowledgeable, players. They gave me nose bleeds and headaches for a long time, until I backtracked to where they come from.

If you understand harmonizing a scale and how chords are formed, you know that when you harmonize a scale you get:

IMaj, IIm, IIIm, IVMaj, V7, VIm, VIImb5.

In the key of C, CMaj, Dmin, Emin, FMaj, G7, Amin, Bmb5 . . . and, all of those chords are made up of notes from the CMaj scale. That is it, that is the basic explanation of modes. They are linear representations of the harmonized scale on each of the scale tones.

You can make it all much more complicated, and that is a wonderful thing, but the begining point is simple and easy to understand if you don't add to complication too soon.

I think that was all John was pointing to.

Bill

[Noodler]

If you understand harmonizing a scale and how chords are formed, you know that when you harmonize a scale you get:

IMaj, IIm, IIIm, IVMaj, V7, VIm, VIImb5.

In the key of C, CMaj, Dmin, Emin, FMaj, G7, Amin, Bmb5 . . . and, all of those chords are made up of notes from the CMaj scale. That is it, that is the basic explanation of modes. They are linear representations of the harmonized scale on each of the scale tones.

This makes good sense. It has the advantage of also showing in an instant and really comfortable way something about each of the modes, too. It shows which ones are major or minor, the G7 hints at mixolydian, the VIImb5 tells you lots. So the modes contain the 1,3 and 5 of each of the chords of the harmonised scale?

I'm feeling a great sense of comfort with modes all of a sudden, because that harmonised major scale is so ingrained. ie If I know the chords, I know half the modes' notes too. Yeah, that's cool!

Just a query about the 7th degree...you can play locrian or diminished, right? Just b7 vs bb7?

This is making more sense than it ever has now. It's all tying together. Thanks.

[franco6719]

Indeed. If you can think of all the chord tones of the harmonized major scale, you can then go on to think of the modes as simply extended chord/scales.

So, if you have the key of C:

Cmajor7 : CEGB (1,3,5,7,) then continue on D, F, A (9,11,13). Now, if you put that in linear order, what do you have: C "Ionian".

Dmin7 is built off of 2 and is IImin7. DFAC (1,b3,5,b7).....continue up the extensions (E,G,B). Put it all together and you have the CHORD/SCALE D Dorian.

Skip to the IV chord, It starts on F and goes F,A,C,E (1,3,5,7)..continue....
G,B,D.. The chord for this is Fmaj7#11 or the mode F Lydian because of the Bnatural.

V chord starts on G and goes (G,B,D,F) (1,3,5,b7) and continues (A,C...)
Hence you have Gdom7/Mixolidian chord/scale.

The VII chord starts on B and goes (B,D,F,A) (1,b3,b5,b7) and continuing up (C,E,G) you end up with min7b5/Locrian. But since this chord is also a D minor 6, (D,F,A,B) you can play D Dorian on it. Since it is also G9, you can do play G altered (Ab melodic minor).