Understanding Guitar Modes

**gingerjazz** · 04-22-2009, 03:21 PM

if you still dont feel your grasping modes even after all this great advice you may need to go to a private tutor i do this whenever i feel i need a push in the right direction once your on that new road you gan usually carry on down it on your own id love to here what you and everyone else thinks of this advice i know it helped me onto the next level try not to get too downhearted and remember learning musics all about the journey not the destination oops there i go again with my amature philosophy

**Bill_J** · 04-22-2009, 03:23 PM

Like I stated in my first post here, be careful of the explanations and the theory . . . they can make a simple concept impossible to understand.

Lets go back to the C - G7 example. Don't try to bring too much information or theory to the table. Lets make things even more fundamental than my first example:

You have a song that you love, that only consists of one chord - Cmaj. Well, you have learned the Cmaj scale up and down the neck (C, D, E, F, G, A, B). So you get a friend to play C on his guitar and you improvise over his C chord using the Cmajor scale. Everything is wonderful. In modal language, you are playing C Ionian (or C major).

Now your friend complicates things, he just learned a wonderful new song that only consists of one chord. This time the chord is G7. Oh my God! Now you have to go to the scale books and learn an entirely new scale . . . the G7 scale. It will be weeks before you will be able to improvise over the new song. No, that is not true! The G7 scale is G, A, B, C, D, E, F (the F# is flatted in the Dom7). Those are the same notes that you already play when you play C Ionian. All you have to do is, instead of playing from C to C, you start on G and play the same notes as the C Ionian scale. Wow, you can have your friend play the G7 song and you don't have to learn anything new. You just play your 'good old' C scale using the G note as a starting point and you are playing in G7 . . . that is 'G Mixolydian'.

If you look at the Am scale (A, B, C, D, E, F, G) it has the same notes as the C Ionian scale. So when your friend introduces you to his new Am chord song, guess what? All you have to do is play your C scale from A to A rather than from C to C and you are playing an Am scale or . . . A Aeolian mode.

Now, you and your friend get really sophisticated. You learn jazz and you find out about the II-V-I progression. You are in C, so the progression is Dm7, G7, CMaj7.

Now, it turns out that D Dorian (which is a minor mode) consists of D, E, F, G, A, B, C; and, you already know that G7 (G mixolydian) is G, A, B, C, D, E, F; and Cmaj (C Ionian) is C, D, E, F, G, A, B. . . so, you can solo over your II-V-I in C using only the notes in the C Ionian scale, but starting on D for the II chord, G for the V chord, and C for the I chord. You are playing a set of modes over the II-V-I in C!

Now, this is a VERY simple explanation of how this all works, but it is a good, easy to understand, place to start. Don't try to complicate it until this basic approach makes sense to you. Find a backing track for a II-V-I in the key of C and try it out.

Modes have myriads of applications and permutations. If you try and swallow them all in one bite, you will make yourself sick. Keep it simple at first. If you understand the basic concepts, you will find that you can gradually add more sophisticated uses without ever getting a headache or nose bleed.

Hope this help you,
Bill

**wordsmith** · 04-22-2009, 04:19 PM

.....took me a long time to 'get', and I too was looking for the right words that clicked for me. Here is a random example.

Try this then: D minor is the relative minor of F major.
The notes are: D E F G A Bflat C D, the same as F major. This is basic theory, which needs to be understood before going modal.

Now, D Dorian scale is not the relative minor of F major. It is however, a minor scale - the minor scale you get when you play C major scale notes but start and end on D. Because D is the second note of the C major scale, the 'D to D' scale is the second mode...Dorian. The notes are:
D E F G A B C D.

Now, compare this sequence of notes with those of the D minor relative to F major......a difference! The B is not flatted in the D Dorian scale. Used in the key of C, where it is the second mode, this 'not flatting the sixth' makes it a 'brighter' minor scale, or perhaps a less dark minor scale, depending on your point of view. So, relative minor scales have a flatted sixth....Dorian minor scales do not. Every key has its relative minor and its Dorian mode. If you want a minor sound, but brighter than the relative minor, you can use the Dorian. In Cmajor, the relative minor is A minor.

In a nutshell...that's it. Modes are modified major and minor scales, and offer brighter/lighter or darker/heavier tonal choices, depending on how the modifications (the sharping or flatting of the notes of existing scales) change the character of the sound. Try making up your own
'mode'....start with the root and flat everything:

C Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb C....weird scale! How to describe the sound of it? Weird, I suppose. The real modes are modified in the same way, but not as drastically.

The Phrygian is weirdly dark because it has a half-step from root to second, but I don't want to go there at the moment, although the same principles apply, as they do to all of it!

What really helped me was this: on the piano keyboard, it's easy to play chords on the white keys, which are the notes of C major. Play any white key, and the key two keys up from that, and a third key two up from that.....play one, miss one, play one, miss one, play one. So, if your first key was D, then the second would be F and the third A....the notes of D minor chord. But if you play the scale from D up to the octave D on the white keys, that is not the scale of the D minor relative to F major. It is the Dorian scale, the second mode of C major. I used to think I was playing the D minor scale when I did this, until it 'clicked'.

What I have written here will either help you, or it won't. If it doesn't, just keep looking around and asking....everybody gets it in the end! Took me ages, I don't know why.

**ichijou** · 04-22-2009, 04:27 PM

might wanna try looking at it from the point of view of a piano rather than a guitar to get the basic idea, it's pretty simple when you see it laid out on keys.

kind of a trade off, we get moveable chord shapes, they get linear modes.

**derek** · 04-22-2009, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by ichijou

might wanna try looking at it from the point of view of a piano rather than a guitar to get the basic idea, it's pretty simple when you see it laid out on keys.

kind of a trade off, we get moveable chord shapes, they get linear modes.

I agree. Nothing like having those white and black keys laid out so neat and nice.

**wordsmith** · 04-22-2009, 05:41 PM

....after reading the previous two posts, how easy it is to compare the sound of D relative minor with the D Dorian minor on piano. Just play the white keys D to D, doing little melodies, then the same but with the black Bflat key instead of the white B. Instant contrast, no skill required, really. I was thinking theoretically when I wrote my post here.....I never thought about actually doing it!

Could anyone send me a piano, perhaps in a ZIP file, please?

**elixzer** · 04-22-2009, 06:38 PM

I may have had a breakthrough in trying to understand modes--------here goes. After off-guitar theorizing, later I picked up guitar to finger D Dorian.....(eerrr if you get me )

Then I got confused again, why the pattern was so different from D major...i know I know lol. Then it dawned that the pattern was so it stays same as Cmj with no flats or sharps so that you get a different flavour --from the tonal root D, and of course different feel of the mode

So this is same for E dorian too, that it would keep to the pattern of Dmj ?

This is what mode/'flavour' means?..........?

**Earl** · 04-22-2009, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by elixzer

OK so if I follow that above: C ioanian, D dorian, E Phrygian, etc there are definately no sharps or flats in any of them, right?

Now, a question, what is E dorian then? But let me guess---'dorian' means that it is the second degree of Dmj, and thus will contain two sharps?

That is precisely correct...and the rest of the modes in the key of D
will also contain an F# and a C#...these notes being necessary to
establish D Ionian (key of D).

I like to give a very direct answer when someone asks a specific question
and not muddle their mind with a "blanket theory"

The Earl of Soco

**wordsmith** · 04-22-2009, 07:55 PM

(Quick note to Earl...I wrote this and posted before I saw your post....I think my 'Yup' should meet with your approval

. I hope the rest isn't a muddle......I go for the idea that anyone should chip in with whatever, in the hope that one particular way of putting it eventually gets the desired 'click').

.....E Dorian must be a second mode, because any Dorian is a second mode, so it would use the notes of D major. But look at the steps in E Dorian....

E Fsharp G A B Csharp D E...WHWWWHW, rooted on the E. (If you move the last 'W' here to the beginning, you will get.....)........

D major .....................WWHWWWH, rooted on the D.

That's what changes the flavour, as pointed out earlier by others. Any major scale becomes minor when you start on the second note.
The same way standard major and minor scales sound different to each other, because the step sequences are different....nothing to do with the note you start on.

E Phrygian uses the notes of C major......E F G A B C D E.....see the half-step from E root to the second, F.......spooky!......but still with the G natural as in a standard E minor, and with flatted fifth and sixth.

E Lydian uses the notes of Bflat major. In the same way, A Dorian uses the notes of G major.

Phrygian is always the third mode, so A Phrygian uses the notes of......F major.

Lydian is always the fourth mode, so C Lydian uses the notes of G major, giving us the sharp F.....C D E Fsharp G A B C....this is an alternative to the standard C major scale.....Satriani likes Lydian....said to have a more 'airy' or 'spacey' feel.
The standard C major scale is often called the 'vanilla' scale, and would not get you into the best parties. Throw in the sharped F, and you're suddenly cool. Santana is known for his liking for Dorian. Boring camp-fire acoustic strummers don't play modes, so we hear the same things all the time.

Keep at it....you'll have modes soon I reckon, then you can start messing around with them.

Once one 'gets' the modes, there is an unwritten rule that one has to help others to 'get' them.....like a chain, a snake, winding along through time and space, eternally.

**Earl** · 04-22-2009, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by elixzer

ok. So we have established the dorian is second degree of the scale of c major, D dorian

So E dorian is second degree of Dmajor

F dorian is second degree of E major etc.

So phrygian (i love this spelling

) is 3rd degree? so let me see if i understand that?

so E phrygian is 3rd degree of Cmj

and D phrygian is 3rd degree of B major?

etc?

Use the same intervallic distance starting with a given note that you
used when establishing C Ionian (white keys on piano). If you like, I
will write them out...starting with G (1 sharp) which is F#...then the
flat keys starting with F (1 flat which is Bb) and each scale will match
the intervallic distance used in the key of C.

The Earl of Soco

**wordsmith** · 04-22-2009, 08:23 PM

....is this:

The modes of the major scale/dorian

Scroll down to the seventh diagram on the page, and there's a box diagram with all the modes. At the bottom of this box are the types of chords over which each mode can be played over, without clashing with any chord tones.
This diagram finally put an end to my mode misery....click! Two minutes, maybe less.

**Joe Dalton** · 04-23-2009, 02:43 AM

Originally Posted by pierre richard

i agree derek...learning all the modes and the theory behind it is for college credit as I always say...but I do have students that wish to learn it and learn it they do...

I don't agree, a good grasp of the modes makes switching between changes a lot easier.

**elixzer** · 04-23-2009, 08:07 AM

I thought I would present my present understanding to you'll---who have all been a great great help

...Please feel free to correct anything I say:

D dorian is second degree of C major. Degree means the second note, 'D'

C major is: C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C and has no sharps/flats
D dorian is: D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D, and also has no sharps/flats

Now compare d dorian with d major scale:

D Major Scale: D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D
D Dorian mode: D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D

(As can be seen, sharps are flattened so that the mode becomes the mode/flavour of C major. It follows the pattern/formula--which is whole steps, and half steps, yet has a different feel to the sound of the scale it is a mode of!)

Now let us look at E dorian:

E dorian is Second Degree of D Major:

D major scale: D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D

E dorian scale: E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D, E

E major scale: E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D#

See what has happened? E dorian following pattern/formula of D major (from which it is a mode of) flattens 3rd and 7th notes, thus giving it its flavour)

So up to now would you say I am closer to understanding Dorian modes now?

**Joe Dalton** · 04-23-2009, 08:27 AM

Elixzer, no offense intended. I think you are simply working a few steps ahead of where you should be. It isn't a matter of getting it or not it's a matter of not having the underlying knowledge needed to understand it. One of the most common mistakes and my main beef with online studies isn't that the information online is wrong (even if that is often true but this site is a good example the opposite can also be true) the problem lies in the fact people don't get the knowledge they need in a sensible order.

Here is my advice to you to undertstand what you are working on.
Go to a site with guitar scales shown on a fretboard in various positions. Look up the major scale and learn all the positions. Have that sink in and then step back to the modes and my guess is you wont even blink and learn all the modes (on a basic level) in a day.

**elixzer** · 04-23-2009, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by Joe Dalton

Elixzer, no offense intended. I think you are simply working a few steps ahead of where you should be. It isn't a matter of getting it or not it's a matter of not having the underlying knowledge needed to understand it. One of the most common mistakes and my main beef with online studies isn't that the information online is wrong (even if that is often true but this site is a good example the opposite can also be true) the problem lies in the fact people don't get the knowledge they need in a sensible order.

Here is my advice to you to undertstand what you are working on.
Go to a site with guitar scales shown on a fretboard in various positions. Look up the major scale and learn all the positions. Have that sink in and then step back to the modes and my guess is you wont even blink and learn all the modes (on a basic level) in a day.

Of course, you may have missed a post where I finformed people here I have practised major scales and pentatonic scales over neck, hence my interest in progressing my knowledge of modes
I truly dont take offense, but I dont agree with what you have just done

Ie., what i am wanting is confirmation that i have 'got it'--when what i have put out in last post dawned on me a while a ago, i feel i have got it, about dorian. So if I was the 'teacher' i would congratulate this getting it---thats first thing i would do. People need encouragement

**elixzer** · 04-23-2009, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by Joe Dalton

Elixzer, no offense intended. I think you are simply working a few steps ahead of where you should be. It isn't a matter of getting it or not it's a matter of not having the underlying knowledge needed to understand it. One of the most common mistakes and my main beef with online studies isn't that the information online is wrong (even if that is often true but this site is a good example the opposite can also be true) the problem lies in the fact people don't get the knowledge they need in a sensible order.

Here is my advice to you to undertstand what you are working on.
Go to a site with guitar scales shown on a fretboard in various positions. Look up the major scale and learn all the positions. Have that sink in and then step back to the modes and my guess is you wont even blink and learn all the modes (on a basic level) in a day.

I truly dont take offense, but I dont agree with what you have just done

Ie., what i am wanting is confirmation that i have 'got it'--when what i have put out in last post dawned on me a while a ago, i feel i have got it, about dorian. So if I was the 'teacher' i would congratulate this getting it---thats first thing i would do. People need encouragement

Of course you may have missed my post where I explained I have been very much practisting the major scales and minor pentatonic scales all over the neck, hence my wanting to also progress my knowledge to understanding modes

I really DO still value your advice though

**Banksia** · 04-23-2009, 09:32 AM

You are right as far as Dorian mode goes elixser. The real test is to use it in playing. Remember that Modes are just a different perspective for looking at scales. As you have stated D Dorian is just C. Dorian is the easiest to use because we are all familiar with Rock and Pop music that uses Dorian. Trying to use some of the others is a bit more challenging.

I agree 100% with Joe's general statement though. I am a person who learnt in bits and pieces from all over the place and I took 30 years to learn what I could have learnt in 3 or 4 years of focussed, sequential study.

**elixzer** · 04-23-2009, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by Banksia

You are right as far as Dorian mode goes elixser. The real test is to use it in playing. Remember that Modes are just a different perspective for looking at scales. As you have stated D Dorian is just C. Dorian is the easiest to use because we are all familiar with Rock and Pop music that uses Dorian. Trying to use some of the others is a bit more challenging.

I agree 100% with Joe's general statement though. I am a person who learnt in bits and pieces from all over the place and I took 30 years to learn what I could have learnt in 3 or 4 years of focussed, sequential study.

WOW that is some statement Banksia! I could really do help with that fastrack!

So can you reiterate and layout in your own words then what that 3-4 years of focussed, sequential study may consist of?

**elixzer** · 04-23-2009, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by Joe Dalton

Elixzer, no offense intended. I think you are simply working a few steps ahead of where you should be. It isn't a matter of getting it or not it's a matter of not having the underlying knowledge needed to understand it. One of the most common mistakes and my main beef with online studies isn't that the information online is wrong (even if that is often true but this site is a good example the opposite can also be true) the problem lies in the fact people don't get the knowledge they need in a sensible order.

Here is my advice to you to undertstand what you are working on.
Go to a site with guitar scales shown on a fretboard in various positions. Look up the major scale and learn all the positions. Have that sink in and then step back to the modes and my guess is you wont even blink and learn all the modes (on a basic level) in a day.

Hi Joe

I completely take back where I said, "... you shouldn't have said it". I have rereead what you said several times, and it is GREAT advice (also Banksia emphasizes so too)!!
To understand quitar is the essence of what I am wanting to do, so any advice how to do so I really am open to, so thankyou very much---
This site I think has what you suggest:
http://www.scalerator.com/

And I will definately listen to what you say and put it to practice. Once again, thanks for your great advice

**wordsmith** · 04-23-2009, 12:05 PM

.....now that you seem to be getting nearer to the goal, apparent from your understanding of Dorian in your recent posts, maybe go back to the start of this thread and go over everything again. Everything may make a little more sense second time around.
Did the box diagram help at all, over on Chris Juergensen's site? I posted the link a few posts back.
Stick with it, and remember that the principle behind Dorian is the same principle behind other modes.....each mode has a different step-sequence from its root.

**elixzer** · 04-23-2009, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by wordsmith

.....now that you seem to be getting nearer to the goal, apparent from your understanding of Dorian in your recent posts, maybe go back to the start of this thread and go over everything again. Everything may make a little more sense second time around.
Did the box diagram help at all, over on Chris Juergensen's site? I posted the link a few posts back.
Stick with it, and remember that the principle behind Dorian is the same principle behind other modes.....each mode has a different step-sequence from its root.

This thread is AMAZING! And I am for sure going to study it.

Thanks for that link. When I got to the page though i was thrown by his seemingly odd major scale patterns at top of page. They all seem to go to the LEFT of the lowest root note...? Thats not way I have been learning it, where you get that do, re, mi, etc. Of course I am trying to do it every which way, but the patterns that page presents seem odd to me

**Paul J Edwards** · 04-23-2009, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by Bill_J

Like I stated in my first post here, be careful of the explanations and the theory . . . they can make a simple concept impossible to understand.

Lets go back to the C - G7 example. Don't try to bring too much information or theory to the table. Lets make things even more fundamental than my first example:

You have a song that you love, that only consists of one chord - Cmaj. Well, you have learned the Cmaj scale up and down the neck (C, D, E, F, G, A, B). So you get a friend to play C on his guitar and you improvise over his C chord using the Cmajor scale. Everything is wonderful. In modal language, you are playing C Ionian (or C major).

Bill

Check this out....

If your friend stays on that C note but YOU play a Bb Major scale starting on it's second degree (C) you will magically transform the song into C Dorian. It now has a minor flavor to it.

This is actually the best way to get the sound of the modes in your head.

Play a low E on your guitar and jam over it with D major scale. You will be playing E Dorian because E is the second degree of the D major scale.
Dig?

**elixzer** · 04-23-2009, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by Paul J Edwards

Check this out....

If your friend stays on that C note but YOU play a Bb Major scale starting on it's second degree (C) you will magically transform the song into C Dorian. It now has a minor flavor to it.

This is actually the best way to get the sound of the modes in your head.

Play a low E on your guitar and jam over it with D major scale. You will be playing E Dorian because E is the second degree of the D major scale.
Dig?

In this case no. I dont understand how C is second degree of Bb mj scale? If C is second degree of Bb scale, what is second degree of B major?

**Bill_J** · 04-23-2009, 02:31 PM

Bb is C#, and if you play a C#maj scale over a C chord, you are going to get some flavor, for sure . . .

Whew, was I wrong - A# is correct. Mia Culpa.

**Paul J Edwards** · 04-23-2009, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by elixzer

In this case no. I dont understand how C is second degree of Bb mj scale? If C is second degree of Bb scale, what is second degree of B major?

If you actually tried what I suggestred you would hear what I am talking about.

The bass player laying down a C makes C the root or the home note if you will.

The second degree of a Bb Major scale is C. So by you playing a Bb scale emphisizing the root as a C you are playing C dorian. C is the dorian mode of a Bb Major scale. The bass is the boss. It defines your tonality in this case.

If you don't have a way to record a c eighth note rhythm to play a long with than do it on your guitar with the low E as your bass note. Play that E note on the bottom and play a D major scale over it. Try it you will now "hear" E dorian which is the second mode of D major. Remember that low E is layong down the root note, the home note.

Just try it.