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Does anyone have any good tips for when trying to connect scales or arps by the nearest note method on the fly? (As in the connecting game in Joe Elliot's book for example).
I suppose that you must have the shapes burned into your mind. Or do you think in terms of actual notes? It's easy when you return to the root on each chord change but you have to be a bit more fluid in your thinking when connecting using the nearest note.
What worked for you?
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03-12-2015 07:53 AM
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I really like the connecting game for its integration of "practice" while actually playing tunes. Elliot says to vary yet, so I do. Have set up some arbitrary "rules", if you can call them that, for the connecting game on different passes.
on one pass, ascending, I'll go from one chord to the next by going UP to a new chord tone, then DOWN to new chord tone descending. This gives you slightly more range in the exercise as you're going up and down little farther, but sounds slightly less natural and more "exercisy" than it's counterpart: ascending, resolving DOWN to the new chord tone - descending, resolving UP to the new chord tone.
Next pass I'll do either-or, but always deferring to the 7th resolving to the 3rd and vice versa. Sometimes they resolve up sometimes I resolved down , but this is a really strong chord movement.
You can do things like start from the lowest notes in position,regardless of which scale degree it is,orbegin with a certain scale degreeetc.. Things fall very differentlyif you use triplets instead of eight notes etc.
Again, these aren't rules as much as just some ways to arbitrarily create some variation.
I don't always think in terms of actual notes , but I'm not a great student. don't practice on a regular schedule.... It's worth mentioning that you are working your ears as much as your fingers and mind regarding note names etc. you actually do get to a point where you hear it and play it without thinking about it so much. Just do the reps . "All the things you are" has most of basic jazz in it.
I think the Joe Elliott book is beautiful in it's simplicity and lay out, But I hate that it has zero fingering recommendations. I knew most of the caged shapes in every position before starting the book but found running the connecting game with them just irritated me.
I've dropped the caged shapes completely and am working Leavitt's first five fingerings instead. It's more systematic and makes more sense to my mind. I have small hands so I do more of circle of fifths at higher fret locations because of the stretches. For me personally, caged jumps the shark pretty hard when you get to melodic minor. Trying to "get my life right" per reg's advice. Just my two cents.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 03-12-2015 at 09:06 AM.
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Just thinking while driving... if you wanted to be systematic with 7's resolving to 3rds and vice versa , you could start the first arp on the root with 8th notes.
This will have you always being able to resolve the third to the seventh on beat 1 (or 3) of the next chord . Then, do the same exercise, but start on the 3rd of the first chord - works out the same way . The 3rds and 7ths are most important , but you can do the same thing with the root and the 5th as well, if you wanted to be systematic in the chords' resolving to the next.
All of this "resolving", of course, is assuming you are working chords resolving down a 5th like 251's or "all the things you are" --type back cycling.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 03-12-2015 at 09:24 AM.
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Excellent response as always Matt, and interesting ways of changing up the basic exercise. Yes, I am in fact working through major 251s.
How did you get from the point where you can understand the task conceptually to the point where you can do it in time?
I've just thought of a drill that I could use.... if I use a random number generator to give me a number from 1-8 representing the number of notes played before a change, and a second number, either 1 or 2, representing either ascending or descending on the next chord change, then I reckon that a couple of weeks of doing this should smooth out those changes.
So if I am presented with 4 and 1 then for example I would play an Emin arp up to the D, and then continue ascending from E which is the flat 5 of my next arp (a Bb dim). I'll give it a shot.
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Horn players do same exercises and they say practice it SLOW and focused know the notes of the scale and closest note. Practice it through common cycles of chords and tunes. Whole idea is getting it to be second nature something that goes on in the back ground. So you see a chord change and in your mind the neck lights up with all the scale and chord tone so you navigate thru the tune. This process a good thing to do when learning a new tune to get the sound of the tune in your ears. Just practice it slow, speed comes on its own.
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Yeah. This:
Originally Posted by Stu Foley
II V's are a great start, but once you get going somewhat, you might as well do longer sections of simple tunes which cycle as well. You have to do some work regardless. It might as well be real music. "All the Things You Are" is just basic. Really utilizes The Cyle and different chord types. Work it in sections if you can't already play it. One position at a time maybe. Your ears and fingers begin to just hear/feel naturally where to change. Still working on all of this myself really. Good luck. Originally Posted by docbop
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Yes, another point. Do you think it's best to squeeze everything out of one scale shape/ fretboard position before moving to the next? My instinct is to say yes because the note to finger association is completely different when changing areas of the fretboard. In this respect, it's like trying to learn five (or however many scale shape you use) different instruments.
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I don't know how you quantify "squeezing everything out". A lot of it's a life's work. If step 1 is very basically playing the chord-scale arpeggios (IM7, II-7, III-7, etc.), then, step 2 might, for example, be doing it on eighth notes, "in time". Then, triplets.... then playing through cycles... then pieces of tunes... and on and on. You don't have to do all of that in one position to do some of the first steps in another position. Originally Posted by Stu Foley
Also...
It's true that a pattern as-a-whole is different in another position, but their are similarities in all of them. There are 2 Maj7's and 2 minor 7's in each major key, not to mention similarities between dominant and maj7 etc. So you get some for "free". Originally Posted by Stu Foley
The other thing to consider is that you're training your ears as well. You're definitely not starting from scratch there. Once you can play key of C major arps in 3rd position, they sound exactly the same in 5th position, except for maybe one note on the 6th string and one on the 1st. In a lot of ways the 1st position you learn may be the hardest. You get a lot of free overlap in the succeeding patterns.
Others may have better thoughts. That's just the way I think about it as a student myself.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 03-12-2015 at 02:55 PM.
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Stu Originally Posted by Stu Foley
When I learn a new lick or transcribe a master's line, I play it through until I totally have it down. Then I analyze the relationship of each and every note in the line to the underlying harmonies, paying special attention to what is going on at the barlines where the chords change, this is especially important when there is a shift to a new tone center. I try to figure out the formula of how the lines get from different source and destination points in the chord progressions. Then I work at mimicking some of these formulas into developing my own line ideas. It really does help to have a good fretboard mapping system so that you can see where the arpeggios layout and how they overlap one another when there are tone center shifts. Those overlaps are the common tones that can tie the tone center shifts together in a line. In short, it's a lot of long hard work, trial and error, but getting to that new 'aha' moment is worth it all
Hope this made some sense, it's a lot easier for me to play than write LOL! I really admire the writing skills of many that post on this forum
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A couple of suggestions:
Ear training
Take a chord pair in a comfortable singing key.
Ex. Cm7 F7+
C Eb G Bb ..... F A C# Eb
Against a comping recording sing whole notes of each note moving first to adjacent notes and later chord tones with bigger skips. Can also be done without a backing track but probably best to start with one.
C - C# / C - Eb / C - F / C - A ..... Eb - Eb / Eb - F / Eb - A / Eb - C#
G - F / G - A / G - C# / G - Eb ..... Bb - A / Bb - C# / Bb - Eb / Bb - F
Progress to half notes and 2 notes per chord. The variations are too extensive to write out,
perhaps too extensive to practice every variation. It's not necessary to cover every possibility.
Progress to 3 or go straight to 4 notes per chord.
Progress to jumbled order arpeggios.
Progress to similar sequence structures that address extensions.
Progress to applying a similar procedure to longer sequences or full song form.
If one is studying a song, draw the sequences from that progression.
Studying Positions
Take one pattern and play it starting on each possible note with one 5 fret position.
1st Position .... IIm7 - V7+ ..... C Eb G Bb - F A C# Eb
Pattern - C Eb G Bb - A F Eb C#
Fm7 - Bb7+ is the 1st key possible to play this pattern in 1st position
F Ab C Eb - D Bb Ab F# // F# A C# E - D# B A Fx // G Bb D F - E C Bb G# // Ab Cb Eb Gb - F Db Cb A
A C E G - F# D C A# // Bb Db F Ab - G Eb Db B // B D F# A - G# E D B# // C Eb G Bb - A F Eb C#
C# E G# B - A# F# E Cx // D F A C - B G F D# // Eb Gb Bb Db - C Ab Gb E // E G B D - C# A G E#
F Ab C Eb - D Bb Ab F# // F# A C# E - D# B A Fx // G Bb D F - E C Bb G# // Ab Cb Eb Gb - F Db Cb A
A C E G - F# D C A# // Bb Db F Ab - G Eb Db B // B D F# A - G# E D B#
Using patterns that span around an octave allows for addressing more keys within the one 5 fret position.
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Sounds like great practice... basically turns into one approach for soloing. Excepts... C-7 to F7#5, that's pretty out for starting with.
When your spelling out chords and connecting the notes between do you think of the chord that the connecting note implies.
Like C Eb G g# / A F Eb c# / D F A bb / B G F db /
.....C-7 ...(F#9)/ F7 ...C#-7/D-7...Ab7/ G7.....Db-7
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Altered II V, not too out. Mostly just avoiding the most obvious, maybe I shouldn't in this context.C-7 to F7#5, that's pretty out for starting with.
I don't see this so much as an approach for soloing, but rather just exercises in cultivating the aural and physical awareness of movement or lack of movement of chordal notes through chord changes.
I try to.When your spelling out chords and connecting the notes between do you think of the chord that the connecting note implies.
F#9 approaching F7 is more comprehensive than just a G# - A half step concept.
It encompasses F# - F or F# - G // A# - A or A# - C // C# - C or C# - Eb // E - Eb or E - F // G# - A or G# - F //
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Hey bako
yea great exercise, I actually solo somewhat in that style or concept a lot... but I generally also use different melodic organization etc... rather than just spelling changes, but that's how I play through changes... and the passing or connecting note becomes a chord or weak side tonal target... I have a hard time not having a harmonic reference for notes even when I'm melodically developing... I always hear a reference.
Isn't that half step concept the same thing, whether it's one, two or all the notes, it's just the organization and source for the note or notes. Obviously one note could have more options, but if your using that one one for a relationship... trying to create a relationship with other one notes, the connecting notes... it's still part of the equation whether it's one note or all the notes, Which generally just becomes common practice harmonic practice. generally, dominant or constant structure, the further away you pull chords, harmonically from, the less options you have.
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Practice it VERY SLOW at first on simple progressions with a play along. You have to be able to "look ahead" while playing what you are currently playing. You can develop this by regular practice.
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+1 and also this kind of thing is good for mental practice when you don't have your guitar around. In you mind see you hand on the neck working thru these exercises. Name the notes of the arp and or scales for say a II V, then pick a position and mentally workout where the notes are. Then mentally work thru exercise and going to that nearest chord tone. Originally Posted by Petimar
Musicians get called space cadets and other names because even when away from an instrument can practice, compose, analyze, and work on music.
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I have been experimenting with a flash card program that addresses this issue a little differently.
The cards look like this:
X X X 2 X X
AM7 3^
So when you see this card, you would place your second finger on the G string and play an ascending AM7 arpeggio, starting from the third degree of the chord. The string, finger, key, degree and direction are in all possible variables. The chords I used are M7, m7, 7, Dim7, m7b5, +7. The cards are introduced randomly, so you are kept on your toes, and as you master each one, you see it less frequently. The cards teach you both an arpeggio pattern, and the notes that make up each degree of the arpeggio. When I practice them, I play the pattern, and then play it again saying each note. The goal is to play the pattern effortlessly.
I have a way to generate these types of cards quickly, so if someone was interested in other patterns, like scales or chords, I could create them too. Or I could make a deck with just triads, if you wanted to start there. It would also be possible to arrange the cards in the order that Leavitt, or anyone, recommends learning them.
With all of the variables, there are over 10,000 cards. But after you do about 1000, you will have seen all of the patterns. Also, the patterns overlap: a pattern that starts from the first finger is also three fourths of a pattern that starts from the second finger, half of a pattern that starts from the third finger, and a fourth of a pattern that starts from the fourth finger. So you will really have a complete pattern under your fingers much sooner. Also, each pattern starting from the first finger is just a variation of another chord, so you start to generalize this information too, and learning new patterns becomes easier.
This method breaks down big patterns into small, easy patterns, and approaches the same information in a lot of different ways. You are literally learning the patterns inside and out. It is slow going at first, as you initially learn the patterns, and get used to reading the prompts. Then you proceed much faster. Some will probably think that going through these little pieces is too time consuming, when you could "run through" them faster as part of a much larger pattern. But that is the point. You are not "running through" your arpeggios by rote; each attempt requires you to reorient yourself.
The cards don't have "answers"; they are just prompts. So you need enough knowledge to figure out the fingering yourself. Going through this figuring out process will help you learn better.
Since the cards you know get shown less and less, but are still reviewed, you are able to keep moving forward without losing what you have previously learned.
Before everyone jumps in with "learn tunes", I will say that this is not supposed to be a complete learning system. But it is very targeted and efficient. Just 15 minutes a day will keep you moving forward. If you think you know these arpeggios really well, attempting these flashcards might be an interesting test for you.Last edited by Jonzo; 03-13-2015 at 04:14 PM.
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I haven't used flash cards... but I agree working on a skill by it's self is much better than working on a skill through tunes.
Sure you can take the skill from practice to performance with tunes, and practice, but I've always believed in working on technical skill away from the music.
I don't know, flash cards, might be over the top, but why not. You'll probable become quick at understanding what connecting notes are.
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03-14-2015, 05:29 PM #18destinytot GuestFascinating. Thank you. I'm gonna work on that tomorrow. Originally Posted by bako
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Jonzo, I would be very interested in these flashcards. Are you using Anki as your way of co-ordinating the flashcards? Originally Posted by Jonzo
My arpeggio and scale knowledge isn't up to what I'd like it to be, and using flashcards for practice would take away a lot of the tedium- it's make it a game, a fun one.
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I see the scales and arps having the same source - the scales. My arps come right out of the scales, so there's no connecting game. They are one and the same with some spacing. It makes it easier.
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That's how Joe Elliott is too. His "connecting game" has a few rules and one is you play eighth notes without pause. So if you start with a measure of ii, a measure of V7, and two measures of I, you play 32 consecutive notes. To start with, they are all chord tones (and the chords are not altered). O, and when you change chords, you want to use the closest note from the chord you're changing to. That's not so tough in itself. (If you take it slow, anyway.) The trick is to keep it going for several minutes without taking the same path through the changes twice. (Joe recommends five minutes a day of this with each of the most common "situations" in jazz.) You start out learning this in one position, then another. It takes a log time to master all this in four-five positions. And that's just one "situation" (ii / V / I / I). There are others. And not only do it but come up with ideas that you like. (He suggests keeping a notebook of the lines you discover and want to use again.) Originally Posted by henryrobinett
So "connecting game" here doesn't really mean connecting arps with scales. It means connecting chords through a progression in a position.
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Yeah. That's fine. But what I find confuses just about every guitar player I've ever taught or "consulted" is this confusion between scales, chords and arpeggios. I see them as one dynamic and inter related system. One thing, not three separate things. Most guys learn their chords from many places, then their scales from many places then their arpeggios from several sources. This gets confusing, or can, when putting them all together. When they all demonstratedly come from a single source connecting the dots becomes a breeze.
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