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My jazz journey has been supercharged over the last few months transcribing Green's Greenery (and relating it to Bruno's five fingerings) and now doing the same for Chet Baker's Summertime.
My playing has improved, in my opinion, significantly in terms of rythm, melody and expanded note choice.
For me an earth shattering discovery.
These solo's are so interesting as you can essentially play them in 1 or 2 positions and I am left wondering why beginners are always advised learn something in all positions on the neck (a major complication it would seem for guitarists to become lost as opposed to other instruments) in all 12 keys? Why not learn something in one position and internalise it completely. Forget all those bloody scales just know the 3rd and the 7th and sing melodies and play them.
It seems to me that to play these 2 songs at least you do not need to make it complex and say it is this mode and that mode in all these different positions. I have been ignoring all that and simply approaching the songs as follows:
- Green's Greenery is a Bb blues therefore play Ebmaj kind of. By this I mean you can use your Eb scale as your foundation but really play whatever notes you want whilst high lighting the 3rd or 7th of each chord.
- Baker's Summertime in D minor use Fmajor as the foundation but again play what ever notes you want highlighting the 3rd or 7th of each chord (or the flat 5 for the Eflat 5 and the #5 & b9 for the A).
This has truely set me free. It is so simple and to my ears what I am playing is jazz. I can now hear and sing the colour notes and sing them in lines that I can play. Can it be that simple? Am I wrong in this approach?
Sure when a song modulates to another key I may have to move with it but for a beginner learning Blues and harmonically simple songs does this not get you playing jazz faster than learn ii v i in all keys in all positions on the neck? Surely playing music should come first and the rest will follow.
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03-05-2015 07:09 PM
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Your recent path reminds me of years ago sitting down at a keyboard to transcribe my first Dexter Gordon solo. The lessons are there...but only on every recording. Enjoy the journey.
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Re: learning everything in all positions across the neck - it's the same if you play a whole tune in one position - you end up learning the whole neck by default. Take a tune like Giant Steps that moves through a lot of chords - if you played that in only one position you would still end up learning all the position shapes anyway.
For a blues you can mostly get away with one position, sort of - but most standards that cycle through different key centres require you to learn the neck. There's just no other way. It's a real bitch but has to be done.
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See, to me that approach sounds like you're making it complicated.
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The more complicated you make it, the harder it is to play. That's Jimmy Bruno's whole point in his system: stop making it more complicated than it has to be. If you can learn to hear what you're playing, you can play it.
Granted that doesn't leave a lot to write about on the Internet...
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Actually, except for the not learning to play everything in every key, it sounds like you are following the Bruno approach (oops! Don't ever ask Jimmy what his "approach" is! LOL) Jimmy does focus on soloing through key centers (pitch collections), as you are describing, with different emphases (e.g. 3rd and 7th, but also targeting 'outside' pitches temporarily too). I think you'd like his 'approach' (oops, there I go again.
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If your discovery has set you free, who can argue? Certain approaches work better for some than others. The whole point of jazz to me is being able to get to a point that you can truly express in notes and chords what you are hearing in your heart, and if what you are playing sounds like music to your ears then by all means press on forward and enjoy your journey!
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There's an archetypal story that exists in most spiritual and mystical schools in one form or another. The basic idea is this...
A traveller is walking down a path. He comes upon a wall that he can't climb over or walk around. The wall has a gate, but it's locked. He tries desperately to get through but can't. He jiggles the handle. He yanks at it. He knocks. He knocks louder. He backs up and runs into the gate. He kicks it. He throws rocks at it. He jams branches into the crack and tries to force it open. Nothing works. Eventually, just as the man is on the verge of collapsing in despair, the gate opens...as though something magical happened. He walks through it. He wonders how he got it open. Was it is easy as just giving up? He turns around and looks back at the gate and realizes it was never locked. In fact...he realizes there was never even a gate there to begin with.
I love this story. Spiritual stuff aside...it's like the perfect allegory for struggling to learn something. You learn and learn and learn and all of a sudden you reach an obstacle, an impasse...something blocking your growth. Many people give up here. But if you fight with all your strength, eventually the obstacle just gives way. And once you're beyond it, you look back and don't even see an obstacle anymore. You almost have to laugh at yourself that you thought it was an issue to begin with. But you have to fight your way through those moments. You can't fake the struggle. And those obstacles happen over and over again. Sounds like maybe you past through one of your gates gggomez...and looking back you seem to be wondering why it all seemed so complicated before. Congrats man! That's awesome! Enjoy the moment! If you keep practicing...you're sure to come upon another gate that will frustrate the hell out of you again! hahahaha
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It's all good... but what is nice too avoid is walls... or gates along the way. Which generally are from skipping something along the way. Of course it also depends on where you want to go with playing jazz. And your ears probable will change again...
My point... no it's not that easy. But who cares, if your really just trying to enjoy playing the music, etc... don't worry about it... enjoy.
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It's funny the way thing that seem simple to you become complicated when you try to explain them :-)
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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I don't believe that Reg. For me personally, I don't see any way to avoid the gates. Which is probably why the idea of that story exists in so many different spiritual/mystical schools across so many cultures...because it's simply an archetypal allegory for the way humans tend to progress. For me it feels that it is an essential aspect to learning and moving forward. If you are able to play and grow and learn without the frustrations involved with getting stuck at an obstacle that's awesome man! I'm truly happy for you and VERY impressed. It's entirely possible that not everyone gets stuck at times. Originally Posted by Reg
But I don't believe that the act of getting stuck means we've skipped something along the way. I've been very lucky the last couple years to have studied and played with some incredible musicians...big name, cream of the crop type guys. And while they may not always admit stuff publicly or in interviews, when we are working privately one-on-one behind closed doors, they are quite candid about their frustrations, about how they deal with issues when they want to play something they can't, about the years they've been trying to figure out how to internalize a given topic unsuccessfully, etc etc. Even those guys who are literally the best players in the world, when you get them alone and talking honestly about the music, admit to the fact that they still struggle and fight to learn new things...to open the gates, so to speak.
One of those guys in particular (and I'll keep his story anonymous as it's not my place to share this side of him) saw me getting frustrated one day and told me....
**Man, sometimes you're going to get frustrated. You're going to get depressed and pissed off. You're going to feel like you suck. And when that happens, you gotta get it out. Scream at the top of your longs "I f'n suck! I can't play $#!t!!! All of this is BS and a waste of time!" and on and on. Get it all out. Turn red. Kick, scream, cry, throw something. And when you're flushed and teary-eyed, and out of breath...you put the guitar down, you go for a walk, you enjoy some fresh air...and then you go home, pick up the guitar, and try again.**
I'm paraphrasing of course. I wish I'd recorded that lesson, but I didn't...so it's only the memory now. But I think the frustration and the walls and the gates are an integral part of learning. I try and be really honest about that with my students, and about how to deal with it when it hits...as I've had many students give up and quit in those moments because they don't realize just how normal it is.
Anyways...I agree that there are levels of complexity within music - like for instance, I'm currently spending a lot of time on upper structure triads and using them to find new, richer, fuller voicings for my chords. If I did not already have a strong grasp of triads all over the fretboard, this would be near impossible...simply too complex. And if I did skip triads and go straight to the chords I'm trying to find and utilize now, it would certainly cause a lot of problems. But I don't see that as "the gate". The gate I'm talking about was simply the act of trying to figure out triads. What are they? How do they work? How can I play them on my fretboard? They're so simple, why are they so hard to play? It took me a long time to "unlock that gate" and truly internalize triads. Now I look back and don't remember what all the fuss was about. I can see my triads all over the fretboard. It's a non-issue. And I always forget how hard they were to internalize until I try and figure out how to teach them to a student. And then I remember how much work and effort it took me. And frankly, if I'm honest, I could probably put years more of my life into practicing ONLY on triads, and I would still find new ways to use them that I hadn't thought of yet...new gates to try and fight through. I'm facing the same thing with the new upper structure triad based voicings I'm working on now. They're a huge pain the @$$. And it often feels like I'm not getting anywhere. But I know if I keep working at it, that eventually it will just click, and before I know it, those shapes will be as common and easy and normal as playing an open position E minor chord. The gate being referred to in the story is simply an allegory for the fact that new things take time and effort to internalize, regardless of the order we learn them. The order can help...but it still takes a fight on our part. That's why Coltrane practiced 10-12 hours a day. Because he was constantly fighting...and all we have to do is listen to his records from his early, mid, and late career to hear just how many gates that guy got through. Scary! Hahah
I heard Metheny once was asked about his practice habits (which he practices ALL THE TIME!haha) and he said that he knows himself really well now and understands that when he's starting to work on a new idea, something he thought of and wants to get into his music...he goes into practicing that new idea understanding that it will not show up naturally in his playing for roughly 6 months. He knows that he'll have to work at it for about 6 months before it is so ingrained and internalized that it just fluidly pops up in his improv. Each of those ideas he's trying to learn is the gate. And each of those 6 months is the fight to get it open. And then after the fight, you realize it was never even locked, you touch it in just the right way and it pops open like nothing happened.
Yeesh...Saturday night rant over. I love this stuff! I just saw Antonio Sanchez get interviewed this morning. So inspiring! He talked a lot about this type of stuff...not necessarily the spiritual side and gates, but just the work ethic and the fight...and really staying focused and going for it! Very uplifting guy...musically and verbally!
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I'm always amazed at the way the mind works. Working through an improv book this past year using targeting etc. Didn't necessarily get very far through it with the different patterns , but as a kind of secondary result, my ears/fingers just kind of developed a better sense for "where things can go" far beyond any specific from the book itself.
I've never seen progress with improvisation be a real straight, linear thing. More like breakthroughs with lulls in between. You do the reps and suddenly your playing something that you didn't know you could play , almost like it's someone else. Your brain and fingers take things a step farther than even what you practiced. I don't really even worry about progress anymore or whether the muse will come. Just put in the reps. It'll come.
I used to think "how am I ever going to be able to think about playing different scales over specific chords etc in the middle of playing something?". Not really about "thinking" though. It's really more about practicing and teaching your ears and fingers what works where. Then all you have to do is hear it and it comes out.
Of course I'm just at really basic levels, but it's cool. Gonna learn to play this thing one day.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 03-07-2015 at 11:59 PM.
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Like your thread!
IMO, modes, endless scale names etc are a way to talk about jazz....not necessarily how to play it.
The major scale, modified temporarily to taste covers 95% and lets you actually focus on playing and listening.
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yes boatheelmusic.
When I say is jazz this simple, I am not saying jazz is simple. I am questioning this seemingly institutionalised view of learning things in all positions on the neck as a priority over learning in one position and being able to play jazz that is being able to improvise, play the changes, sing melodies, play those melodies.
Play music play jazz first then extend on that rather than learn scales and arpeggios in multiple positions. If I was learning trumpet or sax I do not have to deal with the unique structure of the guitar and surely I would be learning melody and improvisation at an early stage and with more of my learning focus.
I raise this as I feel I spent so much time learning stuff all over the neck (which apart from being boring is not a negative). How many guitarists get lost in this wilderness and don't get to playing a song and being able to sing melodies and improvise. To the gurus I ask why all over the neck is so much of a focus, why not learn one position and learn to play jazz in that position. Learn say 1 song a month (the melody, comping, chord melody, arpeggios, improv, maybe substitutions etc) in that one position for a year then perhaps branch out into the other positions? At the end of the year you then know 12 songs rather than every major scale in every position and relevant arpeggios?
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I think advising beginners to learn two fingerings for each lick is a great idea. One fingering set up with a reference point to the bass note on the 6th string, and one with reference to a bass note on the 5th string. You can get through a metric ton of classic jazz this way.
I think you'll eventually run into some huge roadblocks, but for the first year or so it's a good way to start getting some vocabulary under your belt, and it's great for blues and rhythm changes.
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Knowing one position well serves as an excellent model for knowing all positions on the guitar.
The intervallic content is exactly the same in each position and so the shapes are as well.
There is a study path of learning structural components of music and then apply it to music.
It is true that some struggle to make the connection between their studies and songs.
It is possible to learn most if not all of the essential skills by directly engaging with the music.
Some will struggle developing conscious awareness of what is going on beyond the act of playing the song.
On this path, as you say, at least you will know songs.
Learning is a learning experience. We pursue our goals through our best guess methodologies.
Mistakes are an essential part of the learning curve. Everything new idea or pursuit will seem complex but generally morphs towards simple as it is grasped. To grow demands that we deal with "new".
The answer to many musical obstacles is often "strengthen our fundamentals".
Keeping it as simple as possible sounds like a worthy goal.
Good luck with your best guess.
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Well I'm no Guru, but there's something to be said for creating the strongest (ie broadest) foundations first, before building your Jazz Pyramid. The broader your base, the higher your pyramid can go, maybe... Originally Posted by gggomez
But many will say that it doesn't matter which roads you take to the great Jazz Zenith, as with enough effort, and enough time all roads eventually will get you there.
Then there are some that warn that no-one ever gets there.....
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Hey Jordan.... nice post, lot of interesting points.
But you don't have to believe anything I say, actually the less you believe and the more you figure out the better.
But my comment was very basic.... nothing spiritual or mystical intended. Strictly with respect to the OPs comments about technical guitar skills. Hitting technical walls or gates from skipping basic beginning technical guitar skills required to perform jazz.
One or two positions are not going to work, you'll hit walls, not sure gate would work
playing just 3rd and 7ths and knowing the melody etc... will also hit walls, not gates.
I believe the OPs point about simply knowing and hearing a few musical concepts and then using them to approach performing jazz... might be more than a wall, maybe stuck inside a box.
I understand the concept... don't spend so much time and energy learning and developing all the musical skills and then learn how to perform jazz. Learn how to perform jazz with a few basic skills and then expand your skills.
And my few comments were with reference to that philosophy...I just believe the approach usually doesn't work, most don't continue to do the required work after the fact.
In the direction of most of your comments... that's fairly personal. I don't get frustrated, depressed etc.. never have. I accept what things are. I know myself etc... When I get stuck, as you say... I don't throw things at the wall or beat them into the ground.... and scream... I look for why I'm stuck, its usually not very complicated.. from something I did before or skipped.
Most of us are all in the same situations... we're human with limitations.
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Originally Posted by Reg
What?!?! I totally just wrote up another long post and it seems to have disappeared when I tried to submit it. Dang.
Well the long and short of it is this...
If your above statement is true...man...I'm jealous! Haha
Only halfway though. I'm very appreciative of my frustration. It took me many years to come to terms with it. But looking back on the last 20+ years, I realize just how powerful the frustration was for me as a motivation to keep trying.
And so you don't worry about the state of the walls in my apartment, or the health and wellbeing of my neighbors, I might point out that I've actually never thrown anything, cried, or screamed out of frustration. That was simply my teacher telling me to do whatever I needed to do in those moments. I'm not sure if they are things he's done or not. But he was quite candid about his moments of frustration with me. But man, sitting and trying to play duo with him every week were some of the most inspiring AND simultaneously frustrating moments of my musical life!
As for the positions and learning. Yeah...that's a tough balance to find. Everyone approaches it differently. Music is too big to have one single path. I feel like taking either extreme (only learning one position and trying to make music with it vs mastering the entire instrument as your foundation and then playing music) is, well....extreme. Only playing in one position is VERY limiting. So many things that can't be done. But...music can still be made, absolutely! Likewise, if anyone has ever seen the Ben Monder "email lesson"...man...you could spend your entire life working on that stuff and never actually just play music! Hahaha
I always try and instill the paradoxical, contradictory mindset in my students. On one hand...you have to learn, and practice, and study, and push yourself...and simultaneously...you have to be willing to drop all that crap and just play something pretty with what you already know. I don't see it as an either or...or a first one then the other...I see it as two sides to the same coin. And as a player, it's my job to find the balance that works for me between the two and to be ready to go into either mode at any moment.
You are definitely right Reg that many people who try to only learn a couple simple ideas and start playing jazz (or music in general) eventually get completely stuck and then never go back into practice mode to finish the job of learning the instrument...and they often quit. That's true. But likewise, for me as a teacher, when I was working with younger kids and teens, before I started teaching at the college level, many times my students would quit very quickly. It took me a while to figure out why..but eventually it became obvious. They were coming in because they wanted to learn to play music...often times a particular song or a bunch of songs from one or two bands. And I used to tell them that they had to learn this huge list of things before I'd work on that stuff with them. They would try for a few weeks, but usually their motivation dwindled and they quit. I'm not the type of teacher that just offers fluff, so I was unwilling to completely let go of the real stuff...but I did over time realize that it was just my ego wanting to take all the aspects of guitar that I love and force it on my students. I mean, does someone really need to know all 5 positions of the caged system before they can play the intro riff to that Nickelback song? Hahaha...no. Obviously not. So I changed the way I was teaching them. Anyways...jazz is different than Nickelback, of course. I only point this out because for every guitar player who feels stuck with their music because they skipped something, there is another who quit because he thought playing guitar would be fun and instead was told he needed to spend years mastering the instrument before he could play music. For me I feel like there's a middle ground there. And it's the path I stay on for myself and for my students.
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Indeed! Often there's at least some technical value to learning a riff of a song you really like, and it FUN when you learn and actually play something you like. When I got bit by the guitar bug it was when I played the first notes of Stairway to Heaven, lol. It was way beyond an absolute beginner to play but it thrilled and motivated me. Originally Posted by jordanklemons
Haha, thanks for bringing this up I needed to remind myself of this.
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There is also a difference between a professional and an amateur. I get up in the morning, shower, get dressed, eat breakfast, go to work and spend 8-10 hours interacting with people and doing my job. When I get home I have family stuff, house things, other interests. I might not have time to practice for 2-3 days at a time. It's OK because jazz is an enrichment to my life, not the center of it.
A pro wakes up and his or her job is practicing, learning new material, maintaining repertoire, etc. Maybe a gig in the evening or a recording session. I talked to Gene Bertoncini about this- the guy's been a pro for 50+ years and he still practices 6 hours a day. Ben Monder is famous for practicing 8 hours a day or more.
I will never, ever be able to practice enough to get into that league. For one thing, I'm 55 and probably don't have enough years left, even if I had the daily time. The gap between what I can play and what a top drawer pro can play is enormous. And it's OK. Playing jazz guitar is a hobby for me. If I can play a little better this year than last year, I'm delighted. I play a few gigs around here, have a vanity CD with my band, and don't aspire to a Blue Note contract an headline gigs in New York.
my point is that your practicing approach has to match your goals. If you want to be on par with Russell Malone, Julian Lage, Anthony Wilson, etc., then better stop reading this forum and get to work!
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Awesome points Cunamara!
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There is often a false dichotomy here, pitting learning tunes against structured learning of musical building blocks. This is probably because a lot of people over do it on scales and arpeggios to the neglect of tunes. But there are efficiencies in systematically learning your arpeggios, and other building blocks that we all should know. Both approaches will compliment each other. It is more a question of proportionality than either/or.
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this is not a pedagogically sound approach, regardless of genre. Originally Posted by gggomez
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Bako's excellent post presented an alternative opinion to this short reply, and with a lot of thought and detail. Fumble, I'm curious as to how you would disagree with every single point he made there... Originally Posted by fumblefingers
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