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Yes!!! it is this simple..... No!!! It isn't this simple... In my experience each of the preceeding statements are absolutely true. I've learned to enjoy the "eureka" moment and use the memory of them for sustenance during the plateus. It took me a long time to understand this simple approach... "Maintain and elevate maintain and elevate" ad nauseum....
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03-08-2015 05:01 PM
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Man...I was just watching (listening to really) this short masterclass with Julian Lage and just by coincidence, he happened to be talking about the need for having compassion for yourself when hitting a rut or getting frustrated. He also talks at length about the need to really learn the fretboard...again...the balance of the two...really studying and knowing the fretboard well, but also just being willing to play and use what you know and have fun. And then when you get pissed about something you're not good at, to have compassion with yourself. Scary how deep this guy is at his age!
Here's the video if you have half and hour. A lot of great stuff being talked about.
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I'm in the middle of filling in some cracks on really fully knowing the fretboard myself right now. Years ago I just kind of thought a lot of it would probably be a waste and a lot of stuff that I would end up forgetting for not knowing how to use it. The thing is, I was probably right in some ways back then.
Originally Posted by jordanklemons
I'm a lot better at knowing how to apply things to tunes etc. now. There's a fine balance between knowing this stuff and knowing how to use it. I'd imagine that the best players are really really good at applying any abstract thing they learn to real music. Applying concepts or techniques to real tunes solidifies them .
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I quite agree, keep it simple, stick to the 3rd and 7ths, you cant go wrong here, because you will find your solos start voice leading nicely, giving a sense of coherency to your solo.
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Cool discussion, much more interesting than that one about Eastmen guitars v Gibson's.
See I have just learned half of Chet Bakers Summertime solo. Wow who would not want to be able to play like that. I sat back and thought about it and thought, jeepers this solo is almost all within 1 octove (certainly within 2) and is really F major for its entirety with a magic sprinkly of the right notes at the right times.
I then tried my own improv based on one position loosely on one scale but focusing more on melody and the 3rd and 7th and sprinkiling extensions and the colour notes b9 #5 etc. I immediately went from noodling rubbish a day earlier to sounding like jazz.
Not looking for any short cuts just questioning priorities. Like everyone I have all these books that are filled with patterns scales etc, all over the neck but here is a master playing beautful melodic improvisations because he has a developed jazz language. Is this in part because he kept it simple? Is this also why so many guitarists are pretty boring, all that time learning to play all over the neck, better take that knowledge for a spin?
In one position on the guitar you have 2 octaves plus a couple of bonus notes. Is that not enough to cover alot of ground? For me and I am sure many beginners the hardest thing is not the scale and arpeggios but learning to sing jazz and being able to play what you sing instantaneously.
One thing is certain I see the bennefit of transcribing. Barry Greene listened to one of my improvs and said I was playing the right scales and arpeggios but I was not playing jazz. You gotta transcribe he advised.
Gotta go and learn the rest of that solo (and still have to write up my Green's Greenery transcription).
Cheers
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I almost always keep it very simple. But simple to me might be over the top for someone else. I played two gigs today.. played some tunes I new and read through some I didn't... they were both very simple... making music isn't difficult, generally we make it so. I should practice or write some music, have a few recording projects coming... But... I'm lazy.
You want playing music to simple and easy, it's not complicated... you need the musicianship, the skills. I've posted a million times, there is always a balance between everything. But the more you develop your skills.... the easier it becomes.
1 you need technique, it should be really obvious that you need to be able to play your instrument, not just what you want to play.... be able to play what other musicians, composer and arrangers want, even your friends etc...And yes this involves all the BS. It's just not that difficult if you organize your time.
2 you can't read... just figure on skipping 50% of the gigs... that's still a lot of performance you can play.
I can't believe most of the members on this forum really don't know what's required. I'm not going through it again...
Hey Jordan, again nice post, and seems like it rang with many. We're on a jazz forum... kids don't really play jazz, most can learn some jazz tunes, memorize some solos and play what they know. Not all... but most. Performing jazz requires more than noodling in two positions with 3rds and 7ths. If your really playing in a jazz style... there are a lot more changes going on than the lead sheet ... not to mention your going to run out of material to solo with really fast.
Unless your playing shows or backing up someone... generally you don't play a tune the same way every time it's called. You need to have a few more linear concepts to create relationships with... I played... Have you meet Miss Jones at both gigs, the 1st time was medium up swing, standard... but harmonically the tune developed it was cool... the second gig was more latin... so we played a cut time mambo, more montunos and rhythmically developed. Different harmonic concepts... which results in different changes and comping and soling concepts.
I may be a pro... but there tons of better players than myself out there, I see them on gigs all the time. My thing is you can drop me in a time bomb and I'll read or play my way out and be relaxed... and in time and locked. I'll actually enjoy the situation...When I was a kid I played gigs with the old jazz players... most of them had other jobs to help cover life, But they could play, and loved doing so. I just can't believe learning what's basic musicianship is so much work, or so difficult.
How many people even get the opportunity...
Yea Jordan... your room comments almost had me on the floor, that's the right approach. It really is just music.
Go volunteer for people who need help. I've always made it a point to give back time in some way or another and keep it up...
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Wise words, but I think regardless of your level as a player it's good to view it as a hobby. Originally Posted by Cunamara
I don't practice 8 hours a day myself - I can't do it! Some can, and maybe that's what it takes to be really good, but I think it's important never to lose sight of the fact that it's fun.
Actually if the professional players I know are anything to go by, a pro wakes up and answers and sends emails :-) That's the real hard work - hustling and organising the gigs. Practice always more fun :-)
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So if your approach to learning to play jazz guitar...is say work on a few things and just part of those few things...
You'll end up with some skills, right you can practice those skills. Lets use OPs example, getting a couple of positions down and working om one tune a month as examples, so in a year... you should have 12 or so tunes memorized and can somewhat play what you hear or want in those few positions.
That sounds great, you have some skills and can use them, your able to develop some performance skills playing some tunes. All good... now what, new position and 12 more tunes? year after same thing.
My point is if you want to play jazz and really the reason is for enjoyment... anything besides work, why not actually learn how to play jazz, work on all the technique and be able to play most tunes. yes it will take longer... but if enjoyment is the basic reason etc... your going to have much more when you can actually play in a jazz style as compared to performing some memorized tunes ...
One of the advantages of learning to play your instrument before you learn to perform... you don't need to memorize... new concepts can be picked up easily because you already have the technique, your just downloading a new program or apps.
You'll have far less frustration... and the enjoyment factor will come into play much earlier. It won't take days to be able to perform most jazz tunes... there will much more of the natural feeling aspect going on...
Say your going to learn to play golf, or mountain bike riding... whatever, you don't learn on the course.
But if your looking for the quick short term buzz...
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I spent most of my time learning single keys in the 5 CAGED positions (obviously moving in between then when necessary). I always thought the benefit would be the ingraining of the fingerboard as the way the 5 patterns interlock. Once the key of C is like the back of your hand, then other keys are viewed as simply moving the whole interlocking system one direction or another. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
But I've always wondered what advantages are to be had in learning all 12 keys in one position at a time. Any thoughts?
In the end it's just 2 different ways to the same goal. Or is it?
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I studied with Ted Dunbar at Jazzmobile too many years ago now.
Fingerboard knowledge was presented as essential for expressing your ideas in real time.
He used to say something like "the whole universe is contained in 5 frets".
He would then proceed to prove it by playing a standard in 12 keys inside of 5 frets and make it musical as well.
Up until then, I played all the Leavitt and Sal Salvador shapes.
I moved from shape to shape with little consciousness of content.
When I started playing scales and arpeggios, full range inside of 5 frets,
I started to become aware of all the intervals and notes in close proximity.
Playing on changes became easier and my reading improved.
So, everything is present and accounted for, within the limits of range.
Some fingerings are awkward but still playable.
Using 2 adjacent 5 fret positions (also known as 6 frets) resolves the awkward fingering issues.
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Yes I would think if the goal is getting your fretboard together... the complete fretboard, whatever works best. There are different somewhat natural sounds that come from different fingerings... which tend to lead to resulting organization of sounds.... the organization from that fingering on what your trying to play. And if you finish the complete fretboard thing, you basically have control of the guitar so the fingering organization doesn't influence what your playing. (at least your aware of it).
The same thinking works with the goal of just being able to play Jazz... if you finish the system, you should be in control of what your playing.
The other aspect... will you be able to really hear what you think you hear. It pretty common to have those light bulb moments when... wow I get it , or now I understand or hear.
If you basically learn from caged or fingerings based on open position chords... your going to naturally play and hear basic chord tones from the chords the fingerings are based on.
If you learn from the 7 position system you generally hear almost from a scale reference, or at least from 7th chords.
My point... what you learn from influences what your trained to hear. If you don't finish a system or approach to playing, sometimes what you hear is influenced by what you've learned.
So as Prince pointed out... what is the difference or is there a difference depends on what level you develop a system.
Which leads to if you have your fretboard and technical skills down.... your can make anything musical, at least to the level you want. The playing part doesn't get in the way... you still need to hear something.
i can tell you from experience... once you have the skills you can fake being musical if need be. There are times when your brain just isn't creative etc...
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Can't say for sure. I haven't heard you play. Originally Posted by gggomez
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@Reg, OT how often do you use the bebop scale, or do you use at all, for maj, min, dom chords? Just curious.
thanks
edh
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I think at least one thing you are experiencing is the tendency to be overloaded with information from the web. When you ask "how do you play jazz?" on a forum like this one, you're likely to get a long list of everything a person has done in order to get where they are at currently as a jazz musician. Your not necessarily going to get the information you need at the current moment, that's appropriate to your level. You may get that, but you'll also get a whole lot of other information that is useless to you currently. I think some of us (I'm guilty of this!) have forgotten what it's like to be a beginner. When asked what we are doing to get a jazz sound, we are often telling you what we are doing now, or what we have mastered over many years. So we overload you with all this information on modes and altered scales and chromaticism and tri-tone subs etc...And it just seems like an impossible task. That's because it is. We each had to go through many different stages to get where we are today in our understanding and our technical ability. For example, I spent like a year and a half just on the pentatonic / blues scale. I did nothing but work on playing blues style licks. I then added in the major scale and easily spent another year on just getting the scale solid in any key. And so on. It's not only that you are provided with a bit too much information on websites like this one, but as someone who hasn't walked the path to a certain point already, your likely to underestimate the amount of time and practice it will take you to just get through some basic phase. The more advanced players might just take those different phases and small increments of improvement for granted. And so we just casually mention in one paragraph ..."oh yeah and just learn all scales and arpeggios and modes in all positions, and then do this....etc.." Well my friend, that one sentence may represent 4 years of daily practice to achieve!
Anyways my point is, yeah I agree with you to a point -- you definitely don't need all that excess information in order to play some nice jazzy lines. And yeah I agree you don't need to play every phrase in all keys all positions. But later on if you want to go to a higher level of playing you will likely need to do all that. Just do it when you're ready. You can't rush learning too much. Go too fast and you get overwhelmed. Go too slow and you get half as much done as you could. Go just the right speed and you'll constantly improve and you won't get overwhelmed and frustrated. Unfortunately, everyone has their own "right speed". I can tell you from years of experience working with private students that everyone learns at a different speed. So find your right speed. Don't be afraid to spend 6 months on just one or two things. I know it sounds bad in a way. You may think "That doesn't make sense! Why only practice 1 or 2 things in 6 mos when I can practice 30 new things!" But it just doesn't work that way. Your brain can only handle 1 new thing at a time really. But there's nothing wrong with dividing your practice time between a couple different new ideas.
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I think at this point it's probably wise to remind the OP, and most of the rest of us, that all the well meaning advice given (including mine) has to be taken with the realisation that most here are still on the early to middle stages of the great Jazz Path.
Therefor, when we say things like "Go this way" or "It doesn't matter if you skip this bit, you can pick it up later...", it is not the same thing as hearing it from someone who is at the top of the mountain, and can tell you at least one way to get there...
I think intermediate Jazzers are great for giving practical advice for dealing with intermediate practice issues, sometimes more beneficial than experienced players who sometimes forget what it's like to struggle with practice. But for big picture issues such as this, we should all be careful with advice we choose to offer. After all, it's unqualified, we may very well be leading the unsuspecting learner down the same dead end paths we could be heading in!
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Excellent point PP. The question becomes:
"Do we believe that there are some best practices for learning the guitar, and the jazz guitar in particular"? After all, modern guitar music is a little over 200 years old, and jazz is about half that old.
So what do we think? Are there indeed a handful of best practices - repeatably successful practices - for learning this instrument, and in this style?
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Thanks for the last few posts !!! (reg) and guitarzen !! It really help me relax today. Being new here and after reading a ton of posts ! I realize how much more of a mountain i have to climb,and how many more scales i have to learn . found myself a little overwhelmed ! i can at least breath again !!
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"You can't rush learning too much. Go too fast and you get overwhelmed. Go too slow and you get half as much done as you could. Go just the right speed and you'll constantly improve and you won't get overwhelmed and frustrated."
That hits the nail on the head! I'm in this boat now and have to admit it is easy to start getting a little frustrated and overwhelmed. The help that can be garnered on this forum is fantastic and has gotten me past a few walls on many an occasion. But as stated it can be a bit much at times.
Over the years the best lesson I've learned, and not just for learning music, is patience. Now that said, how do I get past M.B.'s lesson 42 dammit! just kiddin.
Thanks to all for all the tips, help, and info proffered. Not kiddin. :-)
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Never aspired to be a pro; just love playing and practicing. I love getting lost in what I'm doing and looking up and realizing two hours just flew by. I'm just as happy finding creative ways to practice scales as playing tunes, and I'm finally finding notes with far less thinking. I'm 62 and started playing seriously almost 20 years ago with lessons off and on during the middle 10. It's just playing that gets you there eventually, but I also think that you get there quicker with structure and intent in your learning. And it helps if there is aptitude.
Last edited by zigzag; 03-10-2015 at 10:35 AM.
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This has been pretty good discussion, lots of information, even if one didn't really figure out what works for them... there are lots of perspectives... Contrary to princeplanet's comments...I would say that some of us on this forum are very qualified to give advice.
And as to fumblefinger's comments ... yes I do, I wouldn't be on this sight if I didn't.
As far as understanding what playing Jazz is... the theoretical and harmonic BS...There isn't much that I don't understand...and I can usually break it down as well as anyone, usually into simple English. I can also jump into almost any musical setting and cover... there are always better players, but I can cover. And it's not from lots of talent, if anyone put in the time and played as many gigs... they would probably cover better. But most don't.
The technical guitar thing is pretty physical... one needs to understand who and what they are... and then make a choice and finish the process. I had better chops when I was 19... it doesn't take a life time to develop good technique. The understandings, the history and the music, does take time. But with today's technology.... not that long. I watched and learned more in the last decade than my 1st five. ITS SO MUCH EASIER NOW... you can almost have a life. Jazz isn't simple, but it's a whole lot easier than it's ever been.
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I can totally answer this because I've studied jazz (at Berklee and other places) and play saxophone, piano and guitar. I have a lot of experience playing many kinds of music and am not brilliant, but I know how to fun learning a few things at a time. I have certainly heard the "you have to learn all the fretboard" and it is completely wrong.
Here are a few things I've thought about lately as I work on my playing.
--Learning should be fun and practical. You certainly have to practise a few scales to gain facility. But if you learn one major scale in thirds etc. you can play it all over the place, and if you start on the second note, whoa you are playing a Dorian mode! I basically learn the main major scale (starting with the root on the lower E string) and one position above it, and one below it.
--I love the Mickey Baker book because he gives you a bunch of chords and then gets you started right away with putting them into progressions. I play some of these progressions when I'm messing around and people think I know how to play jazz!
--You need to 'bracket your ii V I progressions' in a piece. If you do this you will realize that 2 or 3 major scales can take care of 90% of most songs. Bingo! Get iRealPro and have fun jamming. Throw in a pentatonic for a blues riff or two.
--So what's the catch? Well, eventually you will find your 'lines' are good, but not so exciting. If you are an amatuer like me, you may be contented learning new songs, or sight reading, or finger picking. Whatever. But you may want to learn more complex scales to give more 'colour' to your playing. It is one thing for a major scale to 'cover' chords like G7b9 but there are more interesting notes you can use to really "dig in".
--If you push yourself, you may eventually learn "the whole fretboard" but it is not necessary. Are we all practising to be gigging jazz musicians? I think not. We are having fun and you do that by playing. When you are becoming a bit "stale" then you want to push yourself a bit to keep learning. I find it is a thrill when I solo and 'join' different positions of the major scale. It is a thill. A better player would say "yeah, did that when I was 14, so what?" but I don't let that bother me. I just do my thing and try and play better each day and......have fun!
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Hey edh... I probable do, just not consciously, when playing in a bebop style... I usually spell chords and then embellish those lines with blue notes and dominant approach chords. I usually try and get the blue notes from dominant chords from Melodic Minor. Generally Bop tunes are very simple harmonically, so there's lot of room within the harmonic rhythmic to embellish and create relationships, from which I develop solos. Originally Posted by edh
The results can very easily spell any of the Bebop Scales, I just get to them from a different approach and usually don't just use the notes as a scale reference. They're the result of my approach. I'm fairly sure Bebop scales are just a teaching tool, somewhat like Blues scale. They're the result of harmonic movement.
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I think that learning the major and minor diatonic scales thoroughly should be the foundation of your training. Beyond that with experience the fret board no longer is a mystery to you. In effect the notes are where they are. You can play the same melody line in various positions and on different strings. Apart from tonal variation the notes of melody will be the same no matter where you play them on the fret board. At some point you develop your own preferences.
I think it is important to integrate real tunes into your learning experience. Many aspiring guitarists spend to much time preparing to play jazz rather than actually doing so. You don't have to know the 'bebop scale' to play jazz - you need to be able to play what you want to hear. Like many here I've been playing classical, jazz, country rock,... for over fifty years. I cannot remember the last time I had to 'think about' where to play a melody or even a chord melody arrangement. At some point your hands just know where to go, whether it is first position or up beyond the twelfth fret.
If you spend all your practice time playing scales, that is what your improvisation will sound like - not good. You need to acquire the skill to play what you hear or would like to hear. To me that is the endgame.
Jay
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Best Practices for playing Jazz Guitar:1. Transcribe or at least learn by ear from the recordings of your favorite player. 2. Learn to read standard notation.3. Build a repetoire ie. Learn tunes not excercises.4. Sit in at open jams and gig as soon as possible even if you believe you aren't ready...you aren't do it anyway. 5. Be come patient this is going to take a while. 6. Enjoy the ride..
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Originally Posted by eddy b.
Excellent post!
The part about playing with others is paramount. The first few times at jams you WILL get your butt handed to you. We all have. But it's an incredibly necessary part of the learning experience.
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