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I am new to the forum and it was recommended by a resident threader to start a thread on the subject of taking lessons. I have been taking skype lessons for over 3 years.
began playing in the 70's rock and roll by ear and played off and on as both a bass and guitar player primarily guitar. I have dabbled in many of the historic reference materials mentioned throughout the forum. Up until about 3 years ago i have played in a number of bands and solo performances as a hobby. I have always liked progressive jazz of the likes of Chick Corea, Al DiMenloa (sp?) and John McLaughlin. About 7 or 8 years ago I decided to work seriously on the topic of jazz performance.
Best Regards,Last edited by rennurx; 06-05-2015 at 06:02 PM.
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02-03-2015 09:24 AM
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I'm familiar with Carol, but not her teaching beyond a few YouTubes I've seen. So, I'd be interested in reading more about her teaching and seeing some videos of you playing what she taught you and discussing it, if you'd care to make some.
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That's great, Steve.
I have some of Carol's teaching material----Jazz Guitar, Pro's Jazz Phrases, a few other things---and have exchanged many emails with her but haven't taken lessons from her. I'm curious to know what that's like.
Did you start where her "Jazz Guitar" starts? (I'll have more questions later, I'm sure.)
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I didn't know that Carol Kaye taught jazz guitar as well. She has gotten some flack the last few years for claiming she played bass on certain Motown hits that were actually played by the famous Mowtown bassist James Jamerson.
Good luck with your studies!
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Thank you for your interest. I should note I am not an authority on the subject of jazz, and shall leave that up to musicians who have many serious music school background or professional playing lives doing it. However I can speak from the point of spending hours attempting to play and practice over the years as a hobby of love and frustration. Then finding someone who could get me up to speed to mix with serious musicians.
Keep in mind for the finer details seek information from Carol or others directly. I shall post in parts, the path that I have taken and continue to. Shall think through some good examples to demonstrate.
The method Carol teaches assumes one knows the basics of guitar playing and has interest in getting progressively better at what ever level one is.
I some times wonder why she even took me on as a student. I can imagine when she was younger she would not have even had given me the time of day.
I am blessed to have found someone with this level of practical experience and who has rubbed elbows with the best of best from her era. I wish I had started doing it this way 30 years ago! Then again thought why not just begin.
More to come.
Thank you.Last edited by rennurx; 06-05-2015 at 05:41 PM.
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Yes, Carol actually started out on the guitar, taking lessons from Horace Hatchett (sp?) who also taught Howard Roberts. Carol was poor and couldn't afford lessons for long, so Horace got her to help with his beginner students. Her first studio sessions were as a guitar player. (She played rhythm guitar on "La Bamba," for example.) She picked up a bass in the studio one day when the scheduled bassist didn't show, and the rest is history....
Originally Posted by OldGuitarPlayer
She was the original publisher of Joe Pass's "Guitar Style" book. She also has a set of Herb Ellis / Joe Pass duets that is well worth the dough. (I don't know of anywhere else one can get it.)
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Thank you.
I am well versed on the history you speak of an I would be better to speak on what I know from my practical involvement. I can't imagine what it must of have like for a women to be playing in a mans world at that point in time.
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Mark,
Yes one of the primary tool she uses in her lessons with me is the Joe Pass reference you referred to. She knew and played with Joe.
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Mark,
Yes I have used her Jazz Guitar materials which I believe you posted in a Youtube I viewed. I primary use the Pro Jazz and Joe Pass instructional with her, as well as working this material into the standard songs to give the material in those guides practical application.
There is a wealth of information in this and I practice this material similar to going to the gym and doing a daily workout in preparation to improv on Jazz Standards or in preparation in working with other players to be ready to read the chord charts or key change which are presented at the time.
I am now getting better at actually reading the noted music, but not to the point of playing live while doing it on new pieces I am not as familar with, I can do it on the fly which chords and key changes ( the ireal reader comes in handy on key changes for chord charts). I play from chord chart live.
Seeing the notes on the sheet music as well as chords is helpful as you don't have to do so much memorization. The chordal patterns she teaches help alot.
On actual taking lessons from her on skype she is very challenging, the mark of an experienced teacher, she can read me like a book and picks up on my picking , timing and misinterpreted issues which are ongoing. I used to break out in a sweat when she would say " ok show me what you are working on" nothing left on the table then.Last edited by rennurx; 02-03-2015 at 11:27 AM.
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Roberts talked about "Horse Hatchett" in a Guitar Player interview, "Did you have any teachers? ...(Roberts) A lady gave me lessons for a few months. I learned the usual open-string stuff, chords like C,E, and G, and songs like "Swanee River". But soon after I began...she died. Then a new guitar teacher, Horse Hatchett, came to town. He had just gotten out of the service. That guy gave me a real straight career approach, and he opened many doors for me." Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Roberts then talked about picking tunes out on the guitar on his own, and claimed to wander around the desert, imagining himself playing tunes on the guitar: "Although I didn't know the names of any chords or scales at that time, when I was 11 I could just sit down and play the tunes. Getting back to Horse Hatchett, all this stuff I figured out in the desert on my own he really nailed down for me. He introduced me to other players and told me about many of the hot guitarists like Django Reinhardt, George Van Eps, and Barney Kessel. Hatchett himself wasn't a hot guitar player. He just had an approach to teaching that was particularly clear-headed, direct and useful." (Above quoted, pp. 208-9 in "Secrets From the Masters" (1992, Miller Freeman Publishers)
What to make of this?!: It sounds to me, that Roberts, like Django did his own "neuro-linguistic" programming by figuring out, i.e. playing the guitar, even without the benefit of any theory vocabulary, how tunes "worked". Then, with the benefit of a good teacher (not himself a virtuoso, but with good grounding), he nailed down these concepts theory-wise, and went on from there.
Things to ponder: Good teaching is itself a separate skill--great players may be poor teachers. Music theory should be the servant, not the master, of the person attempting to learn to play...and "rich context", as in working through musical examples (tunes, licks) may be worth a whole lot more than abstracted, de-contextualized examples and exercises....or to put it another way...how many of you know, or went through years of "foreign language" in American schools, workbook exercises...learning how to gender-ize endings of nouns...the whole 9 yds. and yet in the end...did not achieve fluency?! And how many people do you know who became fluent, without being immersed in a context-rich environment...i.e. usually spending 6 mos. or more surrounded by people who spoke that language.
Maybe Carol Kaye, and others (Conti) who de-emphasize theory, (and emphasize playing), are really onto something...though maybe it's not quite as tidily wrapped up as other, more theoretically grounded approaches ?!
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Don't tell her what Richb said about her timing. She might hunt him down and give him a piece of her mind.
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Total agreement!
The challenge for any player student relationship is how to show some practical application yet still move forward based on the students interest the theoretical knowledge.
Your last comment, says alot... she demonstrates how practical application is connected to the theory if you are interested in the theory. If I had just purchased the written resources I may not have had the benefit of the private lessons discussions and all the visual cues. Of course it comes at a cost.
At this junction in life the private lessons are priceless. As an engineering consultant, my primary job, its 30 years of practical knowledge when communicated effectively is where the rubber meets the road.
Practical solutions are much more effective for the environment I work in versus the same 30 years of having academic theory knowledge, these are different subjects. Difficult or creative solutions do not come easy if you have to think to much to get the answer. Many years of practical experience result in the creative force (generating improv).
I have applied the same thought process when I decided to make a change and learn how to create pleasant sounds from the guitar and commissioned Carol to the task. Sorry for the long winded explanation.
Practical or academic both are great subjects but different. However when communicating with different levels of practical application (experience and playing levels with different instrument players) between individuals one way to gauge the ability to communicate (band members) is to reference universal academic principles to connect.
Best Regards,
Steve
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You make me smile on that one. I hope when I am 80+ I can play that well.
Many times I have to remember I am the one who needs to play in time, she is just telling me how to do it and giving me feed back on when I am not in time.
Its all fun, and happy playing.
Love the forum.
Thanks
Steve
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Qunicy Jones called her the best bass player he ever heard. He had her play on lots of things. I doubt she'd care a fig what richb thinks about her timing. Originally Posted by AlsoRan
Don't tell her what Richb said about her timing. She might hunt him down and give him a piece of her mind.
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Mark, Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
I just could not resist poking a little fun. And, from what I have seen in her interviews, I know you are right.
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Carol can sight reading ANYTHING and that is a big part of why she was on so many things in the 60's and 70's. When Q stopped writing out every part he switched from using Ray Brown and Carol Kaye and went to Chuck Rainy, Louis Johnson, and others. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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This youtube link is a recent news report perspective on Carol done around 2013.
It gives some general in-site on her current status.
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Carol said Quincy had no chart for "Hikky Burr" (-the theme song for a Cosby show back in the '70s). He told her to just play E minor. Came out well. Originally Posted by docbop
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at 5:20 Joe Pass
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Taking Lessons from Carol Kaye
After about 3 years or more. Some summary points. Carol's part starts at Part 3.
1. Since I came from copying record licks and memorizing songs this was a hard habit to break to understand a more formal approach.
2. Spent several years just still copying what I was taught to sort of cheat my way through; or learning theory and how that made music, still frustrated.
3. Most recently 3+ years, realizing that the basics which are stressed from the beginning may be a place to start again after continual correction by the teacher, as follows:
a) take one lick and memorize it to the point of being able to play it in any position of the choral position. Still this is barely getting me there.
b) when I played I started to economize the picking stroke, not a good idea in my case , memorize the lick so that alternating picking is always used automatically or if you wish to economize know exactly when you are doing it. keep in mine I am not an expert.
c) tapping my foot down up down up while alternating the pick in the same directions, seems simple, doing in daily practice has moved me much better in the melodic direction .
d)playing to the tap the foot in time with out a metronome, and then adding the metronome and seeing how I was still cooperating with the correct picking technique, all while practicing a few key licks or playing chords to standard songs i do not know so I have to know the fret board.
e) making sure I under stood where the lick fit into the chords of the key I played in.
f) taking the same lick and playing it with a few others over any particular standard song , songs not already memorized.
g) understanding while doing item f,when the II V I or part of it was occuring and then when a shift was happening mostly due to some cycle change.
h) many more thing yet I need to keep short here.
4) Now play a song I am some what familar with , not over thinking any of Items 3 a-h and just feeling it from the rhythm and melody and freely improv. when I lose my place find the melody line or attach back to the chords rhythm.
Thats it in z nut shell based on where I am from Carol Kaye today so far.
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Do you use her "Standards I" and "Standards II" CDs for this? Originally Posted by rennurx
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Mark,
I use the chord charts she provides with those, I use the ireal player to play the songs she has in Standards I and II, Or i record my own rhythm and practice to that. I do not use the CD per say other than to listen to her approach on the chord rhythm. All of my sessions with her include a part of the lesson working on one two of those songs, she only works from the songs in I and II, there are different levels for each that she demonstrates live. Generally the songs in Standards I and II represent most of the other Standards you would come across.
Here is an idea what I learn during skype lesson related to the standards song part.
1) Playing the rhythm and reading the melody from the line, her chord charts for the songs offer a lot of insite into what chord substitutions work.
2) Carol introduces some basic licks which work for the song (these are all in hear printed material) good and begins to show you how they could be used, this is a bit of memorization on the licks which evenually is understood (it has taken me a while to switch from memory to application), later once you feel the music you freely improv. Getting to this step has taken me a while, i have memorized what she showed me and it sounds great, however a faster approach is as I in dicated in the prevous email, its like finally getting 1 + 1 = 2, however if you are memorizer of songs this is hard. There is memorizing its know the right things to memorize or internalize to a muscle memory.
3) She spends a lot of time demonstrating how to walk the improv, this is priceless.
4) She show you how she would comp the song this is a treasure and difficult.
Best Regards,
SteveLast edited by rennurx; 02-05-2015 at 11:58 AM.
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Mark,
one last thing i failed to mention on the first email.
I would never have gotten to where I am today without a knowledgeable instruction face to face, whether Carol who the best fit for me or someone else. Previously I have had every important , or nearly on the subject written resource, taken group Berklee courses. The one on one repeatly for years is the only way to go for me. I believe Carol actually took lessons from Howard Roberts once she retired from studio work to get her chops up to speed again on guitar. Keep in mind Carol can speak to what she has does regarding this she has made mention of many mentors in her career in various discussions , this in itself is priceless.
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Mark,
I also use the DVD soloing course blue book from time to time as this all of the basic concepts which when tie together most of the teaching to the intermediate plus level. I think you have this. What I find with this is it keeps it simple yet the concepts are critical once beyond the beginner level. It can be confusing pieced like it is if still in moderate levels or less playing level.
Steve
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Yes, Steve, I have that, though I haven't spent a lot of time with it. I took a large detour to work on my picking, which was worth the effort but boy was it a lot of effort and I'm just now getting back to where I'm working on other things. Originally Posted by rennurx
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