Modern Method for Guitar Volume 2

[maarud]

Hi all

i'm starting vol.2 of a modern method for guitar and am looking for anyone's experience with getting through the first pages where one is supposed to read notes all over the fretboard...

this seems impossible at the moment...

any suggestions on how to proceed would be great.

thanks!

[Frank De Pot]

I also struggled with this problem. My remedy ? I took some private lessons with an experienced teacher and after a couple of lessons, Pandora's box started opening ......

In addition, you can find most exercises on video via You Tube - for free - or you can buy the Modern Method CD / DVD on-line (Amazon, eBay, ...)

Don't give up. Succes ! Frank

[fumblefingers]

In Volume 2 Leavitt covers the major keys in a consumable order again, starting with C. So if you went through the first book it should be fairly easy. (If you haven't worked your way through Volume 1, I would suggest that you do so).

In book 1 you learned:
1. Four major scale fingerings.
2. Patterns like 1-2-3-1, 2-3-4-2, etc.
3. How to read various scale and arpeggio studies from the open position through the fourth position, in a fairly broad number of keys.


So, in preparing to start book 2 if you will do the following you should be able to proceed slowly but confidently:

A. Just play your four-five fingerings up the neck in the key of C without reading - close the book and just practice your scales all the way up and down the neck. Heck, use CAGED fingerings if it makes it easier.

B. Realize that the beginning of book two has very simple scalar lines with a few simple patterns like the above thrown in, so you aren't going to get into trouble. It's just up and down the scale with a few patterns thrown in to make it more interesting/melodic

[matt.guitarteacher]

I was equally irritated with book 2 at that point. I don't particularly like the idea of just using patterns to read in multiple new positions and not really making a connection with absolute pitch or some kind of kinesthetic reference.

You might check out Leavitt's reading studies volume one and then volume 2 after that. It's more systematic and progressive. Works all keys in one position and gradually works up the neck. In my opinion, you get to really know the given positions little better that way.

[fumblefingers]

hmmm. OK.

Or, you could go to Volume 3 pages 9-10 and so on if you really think that's easier. Leavitt apparently didn't think it was (although Aaron Shearer may have). Besides, Leavitt included multiple keys in one position in Volume 1, Section Two so you should already have a moderate handle on that drill, at least for a few positions.

It seems to me that you should learn notes up the neck sooner rather than later. Goodrick's The Advancing Guitarist may help with that...

I studied with an ex-Berklee instructor at Dick Grove's. He had us play one scale in 12 positions, and twelve scales in one position*. All scales and positions - of course. It was easy because we just memorized our fingering patterns, we weren't reading it. Reading it, especially with some variations, is much harder than running memorized fingering patterns.

*The "one scale in all positions" and "all scales in one position" drills are in Leavitt's Volume 3.

[maarud]

OK
thanks.

i think what i am driving at is close to what matt.guitarteacher said.

i can play the scales without the book. I've been playing on and off for 20 years so i'm not a complete beginner..

but it seems to me that in order to progress through these books in an enjoyable fashion, one needs to be able to read the notes all over the neck..
Dah...

so that one is busy with the actual material rather in trying to read what's going on..

maybe my question, more precisely, would be - what do you do in your head to learn the notes "up there"?

in book one we learn the notes in the second position by fingering - second finger here is a C... etc.. until it becomes automatic.

it doesn't make sense to me to learn the notes like this all over the neck..

at the moment i just try to be aware of the notes so that it's not mindless playing but an aware one... of what note i am playing now...

makes sense?
better suggestions?

[matt.guitarteacher]

OK
thanks.

i think what i am driving at is close to what matt.guitarteacher said.

i can play the scales without the book. I've been playing on and off for 20 years so i'm not a complete beginner..

but it seems to me that in order to progress through these books in an enjoyable fashion, one needs to be able to read the notes all over the neck..
Dah...

so that one is busy with the actual material rather in trying to read what's going on..

maybe my question, more precisely, would be - what do you do in your head to learn the notes "up there"?

in book one we learn the notes in the second position by fingering - second finger here is a C... etc.. until it becomes automatic.

it doesn't make sense to me to learn the notes like this all over the neck..

at the moment i just try to be aware of the notes so that it's not mindless playing but an aware one... of what note i am playing now...

makes sense?
better suggestions?

Just chalk it up to playing through the scales up the neck. You're making some general connections with fingerings and a vague sense of reading very basic scale patterns on the fretboard and a way to figure out where things are.

You're correct in feeling like this section is a major departure. Just accept that this part is completely pattern recognition vs. learning where the actual notes are, individually. The patterns evolve gradually until you're able to read more sophisticated intervallic melodies, using thirds etc, again, just buy reading the melodic patterns. To be fair, it's hard to get away from the fact that it's just a pattern based instrument.

I posted a very similar thread about five years ago btw. :-)

At the same time, supplement with his reading studies book. It'll satisfy some of the other itch. His publishing it says something as well about the need....interesting.

[fumblefingers]

OK
thanks.

i think what i am driving at is close to what matt.guitarteacher said.

i can play the scales without the book. I've been playing on and off for 20 years so i'm not a complete beginner..

but it seems to me that in order to progress through these books in an enjoyable fashion, one needs to be able to read the notes all over the neck..
Dah...

so that one is busy with the actual material rather in trying to read what's going on..

maybe my question, more precisely, would be - what do you do in your head to learn the notes "up there"?

in book one we learn the notes in the second position by fingering - second finger here is a C... etc.. until it becomes automatic.

it doesn't make sense to me to learn the notes like this all over the neck..

at the moment i just try to be aware of the notes so that it's not mindless playing but an aware one... of what note i am playing now...

makes sense?
better suggestions?

yes, but you will need to know the fingering patterns anyway, there's no getting around it. also, what a player "enjoys" is an elusive concept, so I can't say much about that. i would encourage you to keep pushing forward.

regardless, a few suggestions for learning notes on the fretboard:

1. one way to be more mindful is to play these exercises more slowly and make sure that you are reading with more concentration instead of recognizing patterns, but your mind will recognize them anyway - which is a good thing.

2. if you want to do a better job of note learning up the neck, take one note at a time, randomly (like a flash card drill) and play it in all locations on the fretboard - using octave shapes as a navigation device. you will cover the entire neck in seconds. that will help you learn locations even better, but also lets you "cheat" a little bit, right? so...

3. take one note at a time, randomly (like a flash card drill) and play it in all locations on the fretboard - but this time one string at a time as follows - play the note on the 6th string, then the 5th, then the fourth, etc. that will make your brain work much harder.

4. do the unitar thing as described in the Advancing Guitarist.


so, there's a "ramp" for you, each part more challenging than the previous.

Cheers.

[matt.guitarteacher]

1. one way to be more mindful is to play these exercises more slowly and make sure that you are reading with more concentration instead of recognizing patterns, but your mind will recognize them anyway - which is a good thing.

I like your supplementary suggestions. At the same time, I don't think there's any way of getting around that, as written, the volume 2 book itself shifts straight into pattern recognition over really being conscious of individual pitches. I don't necessarily have a problem with it, but that's what it is. You can't learn middle C in 4 new patterns up the neck simultaneously (along with all of the other pitches) and have it really internalized in any meaningful way.

I look at it more as the notation-alternative to scale grids written out in five positions. It teaches you the scales up the neck and has you somewhat reading music while doing so. It's a big switch from the vol. 1 methodology and pace (which is quick), but I don't see it as necessarily being a bad thing.

[maarud]

actually the fingerings are not a problem...

i feel the same way about pushing forward..

i look ahead into book 2 and also book 3 - i have the three in one and i'm glad i do - it gets my mouth wet and fingers itchy... but there's a lot of work to be done..

could anyone share they're experience with book two and three?
what it gave them, was it worth it.. how they go through it..

i got his classical studies for pick guitar as a reading help and as a skipping strings exercise that i would enjoy doing..

[fumblefingers]

i think that you might be better served following the Berklee 8 levels, or at least the first four, while using Leavitt's books as the source material.

the 8 levels have similar/same material to Leavitt's books, but have you learning things in a slightly different progression. (one key difference - arpeggios are emphasized much earlier than Leavitt presents them).

the 8 levels used to be online, i'm not sure where you can find them now. glad i down loaded them.

i'll bet a Berklee or ex-Berklee instructor can help. I know at least one who can. check the instructor page at the college website, some of those guys teach long distance and might be able to help.

[pubylakeg]

I've worked with these books too, and I would repeat, as mentioned above, that they work best when studied from volume 1 onwards, as opposed to "cherry picking" specific items. They are time consuming, and sometimes the etudes and music can seem a little dry and uninspiring, but overall, I would say they are still one of the best and most complete methods available, particularly for a beginning student who wants to learn to read at the same time as acquiring fretboard technique.

In relation to the original post about learning note names all over the fretboard, I'd suggest that's actually what Leavitt is prompting the student to do, and as such the scale studies should be practiced with utmost concentration on the correct pitch names as the study is played.

However, the naming of pitches all over the fretboard is something that can be learned, either with or without the guitar in hand. Whilst away from the guitar, I would suggest a "mental practice" routine where you isolate a single string. Break it down into sections if you wish, say 5 frets, or 7 frets, and firstly, concentrate on the natural pitches(no sharps or flats yet). Get these abolutely ingrained, and then move onto another fret region or string, (those fret markers come in handy here), and it will also give you a greater insight into that major 3rd device between the 3rd (G) and 2nd (B) string. From this viewpoint, the recognition of accidentals, relative to key, will become much easier in ongoing study.

[matt.guitarteacher]

In relation to the original post about learning note names all over the fretboard, I'd suggest that's actually what Leavitt is prompting the student to do, and as such the scale studies should be practiced with utmost concentration on the correct pitch names as the study is played.

How is he promoting your thinking about pitch by having you read pattern-based scale patterns, up the neck, in multiple positions, all at once, and spending basically no time working individual positions, keys, or even pitches. There's nothing about that process which ingrains any sense of absolute pitch.

I also would be very interested in knowing about what supplementary materials are used with this method at berklee, esp. at this particular point. How is this book actually used at berklee?

From everything I can see, book 2 is 100% pattern-recognition. Saying, "think about the note names" doesn't change that fact. It frustrated me the same way, and I moved on to the reading studies books about halfway through vol.2. It's anger-inducing, non-methodology for reading.

I know I'm not the only one. I notice the MM study group didn't go beyond vol.1. There's a DVD that walks you through vol.1 and nothing for vols. 2 or 3 where it's even more needed. I think vol.2 doesn't stand on it's own the way vol.1 did. It's missing supplementary material or instruction that the non-berklee folks don't have.

Do you really have to hunt down someone from that SCHOOL for super-secret material which unlocks this book? Please.....give me a break! Just sell the stuff. Suckers like me would actually buy it. Why does it have to be some davinci code secret?

As-is it's flawed and has some holes IMO.

[Patrick2]

Are you guys referencing the MelBay Modern Guitar Method books 1 & 2?

[soto]

This is the book being referenced: Berklee Press - Catalog - A Modern Method for Guitar, Volume 2

I think someone needs incredible discipline to get through that method. For reading I much prefer using classical pieces where you are rewarded with beautiful music for your reading efforts.

[maarud]

actually, i am not interested in learning to read.. i am very interested to go through these books and, well, it seems you need to be able to read in order to go through them..

for anyone interested - i started volume one been able to just about read in the first position..
i am now able to read - not sight read - up to the twelve..

i am at the end of the first section of book two.

i see this section as focused on the scales, the triads, chords etc.. triads seem to get the main focus and i am trying to nail them down.. inversions etc...

i don't give much attention to the playing bits, etudes and duets etc...
can someone who has gone through this comment -
do you thinks it's essential to the program?

[fumblefingers]

actually, i am not interested in learning to read.. i am very interested to go through these books and, well, it seems you need to be able to read in order to go through them..

for anyone interested - i started volume one been able to just about read in the first position..
i am now able to read - not sight read - up to the twelve..

i am at the end of the first section of book two.

i see this section as focused on the scales, the triads, chords etc.. triads seem to get the main focus and i am trying to nail them down.. inversions etc...

i don't give much attention to the playing bits, etudes and duets etc...
can someone who has gone through this comment -
do you thinks it's essential to the program?

i would play his etudes, duets and solos. play them as correctly and musically as possible - just don't perfect them to the level of say... John Williams playing Rodrigo. (that will take too much time and Leavitt warns against it).

practicing this material diligently has its rewards. i've noticed that it makes me a better plectrum guitarist, better sight reader (to the point of impressing a classical guitar department head - after only Book 1), and better classical guitarist. (In fact I've noticed crossover benefits in both directions - jazz to classical and vice versa, but that's another story).

[fumblefingers]

How is he promoting your thinking about pitch by having you read pattern-based scale patterns, up the neck, in multiple positions, all at once, and spending basically no time working individual positions, keys, or even pitches. There's nothing about that process which ingrains any sense of absolute pitch.

I also would be very interested in knowing about what supplementary materials are used with this method at berklee, esp. at this particular point. How is this book actually used at berklee?

From everything I can see, book 2 is 100% pattern-recognition. Saying, "think about the note names" doesn't change that fact. It frustrated me the same way, and I moved on to the reading studies books about halfway through vol.2. It's anger-inducing, non-methodology for reading.

I know I'm not the only one. I notice the MM study group didn't go beyond vol.1. There's a DVD that walks you through vol.1 and nothing for vols. 2 or 3 where it's even more needed. I think vol.2 doesn't stand on it's own the way vol.1 did. It's missing supplementary material or instruction that the non-berklee folks don't have.

Do you really have to hunt down someone from that SCHOOL for super-secret material which unlocks this book? Please.....give me a break! Just sell the stuff. Suckers like me would actually buy it. Why does it have to be some davinci code secret?

As-is it's flawed and has some holes IMO.

1. well he does work one position at a time, in a single key, and changes up the line with simple variations that will trip you up if you don't pay attention. that forces you to deal with notes/tones in different positions/strings.

2. i can't say how this book is used today, but i'll bet that there are people here who can. Reg might be able to tell us how it was used in the 70's.

3. it's not a sight-reading book, or at least not primarily.

4. volume two has a CD.

5. regarding this particular book and what is going on at Berklee today. hoo boy.

A. Why would any prestigious university or college divulge their individual pedagogical methods for twenty bucks when they charge thousands and thousands per semester? MIT and Harvard are near enough, do they do that? Besides, it's probably not really possible for a person to dump all of their knowledge into a book(s).

B. You can contact a number of their current and past instructors if you really, really want the goods. (Jazz teachers need money too). I haven't checked recently but a few years ago Garrison Fewell and Bruce Saunders taught via distance, just for a couple of examples. A student could do worse.

C. Every conservatory or university trained performance major knows that the education plan involves applied study, ensemble work, improvisation (jazz majors), and composition assignments on the principal instrument. That means that this book could only ever be part of the sophomore study plan. Put another way, repertoire/tunes would be part of the applied study course at a minimum, there would be an ensemble requirement, and there would be improv classes for the sophomore year and beyond.

D. The Berklee Guitar department website reveals a host of guitar lab classes. That should provide you with a fair idea of what else a guitar major works on while there.

E. As i stated above, there used to be a link (exposed to the "interwebs") that had the 2003 guitar department barrier exams for guitar levels 1-8 (one level per semester). Unfortunately, they wised up and secured it. The guitar dept. website also had a 2008 listing of the first four levels. I don't believe those are exposed to the general public anymore either. Bottom line? The barrier exams aligned fairly closely with Leavitt's books - with some notable exceptions that I am willing to describe generally, but only generally. (I've briefly studied with two Berklee guitar Expats, one a former instructor, and one a former student)

F. Finally, Berklee now has a book of tunes that accompanies Leavitt Volume 1. It has some very nice arrangements and is highly recommended. But, if one assesses that that material is too elementary, Berklee now has a few other books that are more advanced.

G. Failing that, there are some competitive schools that reveal their study materials. I can share some of that too. It's all findable if one is motivated.

[Flyin' Brian]

actually, i am not interested in learning to read..

While I realize that there are many paths to the goal...whatever a person's goal may be, I can't understand how anyone who wants to play music with other people would not be interested in at least basic reading skills.

I have played in a few bands where people don't even have the skills to play from chord charts and it's incredibly frustrating wasting time rather than just being able to go through an arrangement in a couple of takes with players using basic reading to get the job done.

I retract all of that if you're not planning to play with others.

[matt.guitarteacher]

1. It's supposed to be a "method" and is described as such. A method should largely stand on its own IMO.

2. Vol. 2 departs pretty drastically from the methodology of book 1 (which does pretty well stand on its own). doesn't feel like a continuation of vol.1 in the way it progresses.

3. The true value of university coursework is NOT comprised primarily of its written materials in the sense of receiving withheld, "secret pages" especially at lower, rudimentary levels.

You can acquire college textbooks and read them on your own for countless classes and areas of study (that I've participated in outside of music for example), and no one assumes that THAT'S the "real value of the class.

You can purchase college texts in all kinds of other areas of study. Is that really what you're paying for to go to berklee? I don't think that's what it's really about, and I think that notion undervalues the actual value of that particular educational experience, doesn't it?

[fumblefingers]

well it seems like a method to learn how to play the guitar to me. it feels to me like one should tackle more pages per time period in volume 2 - while reviewing book 1, section two.

i couldn't agree with you more about the value of attending a university. (that said, many instructors act like mentors while relying heavily on text materials)

regarding your comments at the bottom of this post, you seem to be making a different point now, but maybe not.

Leavitt wrote his books a long time ago and is no longer with us. Since then I think that Berklee has rounded things out very thoroughly through a combination of;(1) their 8 levels of proficiency, (2) Leavitt's books, (3) their "lab" courses focusing on specific skills and styles, (4) the numerous books produced by their other teachers.


"It's missing supplementary material or instruction that the non-berklee folks don't have.

Do you really have to hunt down someone from that SCHOOL for super-secret material which unlocks this book? Please.....give me a break! Just sell the stuff. Suckers like me would actually buy it. Why does it have to be some davinci code secret?

As-is it's flawed and has some holes IMO."

[maarud]

While I realize that there are many paths to the goal...whatever a person's goal may be, I can't understand how anyone who wants to play music with other people would not be interested in at least basic reading skills.

well i did say that i can already read up to the twelve position...
it's a side benefit of these books IMO.. but not the main target..