Mastering a Jazz Standard Melody

**teok** · 12-08-2014, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by Jazzdvd

i appreciate the replys but actually my question is from a technical standpoint i realize the importance of phrashing and feel but i''m just asking whats the best way to master a melody on the fretboard.

Learn it in all 5 positions, in all 12 keys.

**jtizzle** · 12-08-2014, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by dingusmingus

Man it's refreshing to hear that on this forum!

A lot of people seem to be obsessed with a "tradition". The more I study the music the more I realize that the so called tradition is leaving it behind. Of course, there's some respect to show the greats, considering my favorite musicians include Lee Konitz and Jim Hall, but that doesn't mean we have to play what they did, although we can allow it to inspire our music.

That being said, modern musicians have found things to practice that older guys didn't. The whole bebop system in existence now with the approach tone methodology and the way I've heard some of my peers and teachers talk about how they took it really far out is something you don't hear in Bird, Bud, Stitt, etc. Also a lot of the modern vocabulary based on superimpositions and intervallic structures also didn't exist in their music. So of course, you might like something a modern musician is doing over what a guy did 60+ years ago. It's natural. I was thinking of Seamus because I'm checking out some of his stuff on Mingus on some record of his I found on youtube. At the same time, I'm currently transcribing Sonny Rollins melody on My One And Only Love. So there is a balance, you know.

**Jonah** · 12-09-2014, 05:46 AM

My points - sure for myself, but maybe will work for you:

1) Melody should be associated with chords/harmony/scales - whatever cocepts you use or find appropriate for the tune. It works the same way as with improvizational lines
Some original song melody phrases can become a lick also, or part of a lick.

2) playing in different octaves is one of the way to embelish melody and in my understanding it becomes natural if the 1st point is realized properly

3) rythm actually is extremely important in playing melody only - listen how Wes plays melody (only melody!) of Misty with Wynton Kelly's group. He plays only a couple of embellishment but it is so inventive and tatsteful and individual rythmically! It is just impossible...

4) I'll second that one should know the melody to sing (nit necesarily as a singer, but to remember it musically - it should not be that you remember which fret to stop and then listen what comes out)

5) last but not least - better to check vocal version and words if it is a song - words help to avoid melodical cliche in tipical turnarounds - like cadences etc. - because in these tipical turnarounds the rythm and melody of text lead musucal intonation and rythm to more individual shape, more special for this song.
Besides sometimes words can help to discover anotehr meaning in music.

(By the way - even if it is not a song do not disregard speach intonation, it is really in the nature of jazz playing - 'So what' tune of Miles might be good sample)

**Jonah** · 12-09-2014, 06:00 AM

A lot of people seem to be obsessed with a "tradition". The more I study the music the more I realize that the so called tradition is leaving it behind. Of course, there's some respect to show the greats, considering my favorite musicians include Lee Konitz and Jim Hall, but that doesn't mean we have to play what they did, although we can allow it to inspire our music.

I would not call it obsession - jazz is a traditional music that - at least - has one big chapter already closed (or some might say that the whole book is closed) - so if one loves this kind of music he wants to be there in teh tradition.
Modern stuff may be way too different.
And it changes - nowdays I see muvh more connection between Wes and Jim Hall than I had when I was 16.

Actually what you say is about possibility of many approaches ato the same songs, about modern approches -
It is actually also tradition of jazz performance to be open to any new influence.

And this also reflects a momentary nature of jazz... it comes and goes all the time... not only as improvized line in a piece here and now - but as a style too...

I said once already - I thing that idea of freedom is leading in jazz musical ideology. And this is opposition to classical tradition where the freedom is not considered at all as an important idea.
When they come to the point when
Classical composer says: Why yes? - he needs a system of limitations to establish it.
Jazz player can only say: Why not? - the idea of free will is above all. I think this can be actually traced even in the very development of the notion of freedom in Europe and America... how different they are.

**christianm77** · 12-09-2014, 07:58 AM

I'd argue that the problem of learning the melody is really a couple of different issues:

1) Knowing the melody properly as a song - that is away from your instrument. Can you sing it? Do you know the words? Obviously this is easier for some music that others - a bebop head would take you longer than a standard tune. Being able to sing all the intervals of a song accurately can be pretty hard - some songs (I Love You, All the Things You Are for example) have some tricky intervals.

This process can be extended to solos. The Tristano school is well known for developing its students in this way.

2) Can you accurately reproduce what you hear on your instrument?
You can work on this with material you know really well - for example you can do Christmas Carols

This can be done in position, although IMHO position playing doesn't always produce the best, most guitaristic and musical results. When I learn a bebop head by ear I often find myself moving around, but I am happy with this as this is what my favourite players seem to do. When I read a head I am more likely to play it in position, which I find much harder and I'm not sure sounds as good.

The idea is that if 1) and 2) are well mastered, you won't need to practice melodies in position. It will help you improvise freely and play melodies without practicing them, which is something I really want to be better at. Ideally I'd want to be able to play a given bebop head or Lester Young solo in any given key anywhere on the guitar.

**christianm77** · 12-09-2014, 08:12 AM

BTW - I'm a pretty traditional style player ATM, but this is something that came up in the Wayne Krantz masterclass I attended a few weeks back, so it's not limited to the swing/bop continuum.

**Jonzo** · 12-09-2014, 10:51 AM

One thing to remember is that most skills we "master" degrade if we don't use them. In the big picture, how you review is more important than how you learn.

**MarkRhodes** · 12-09-2014, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by Jonzo

One thing to remember is that most skills we "master" degrade if we don't use them. In the big picture, how you review is more important than how you learn.

There's a saying among some music teachers: "It is better to review than to learn something new!"

**jtizzle** · 12-09-2014, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by Jonah

I would not call it obsession - jazz is a traditional music that - at least - has one big chapter already closed (or some might say that the whole book is closed) - so if one loves this kind of music he wants to be there in teh tradition.
Modern stuff may be way too different.
And it changes - nowdays I see muvh more connection between Wes and Jim Hall than I had when I was 16.

Actually what you say is about possibility of many approaches ato the same songs, about modern approches -
It is actually also tradition of jazz performance to be open to any new influence.

And this also reflects a momentary nature of jazz... it comes and goes all the time... not only as improvized line in a piece here and now - but as a style too...

I said once already - I thing that idea of freedom is leading in jazz musical ideology. And this is opposition to classical tradition where the freedom is not considered at all as an important idea.
When they come to the point when
Classical composer says: Why yes? - he needs a system of limitations to establish it.
Jazz player can only say: Why not? - the idea of free will is above all. I think this can be actually traced even in the very development of the notion of freedom in Europe and America... how different they are.

I agree with a lot you say. I do believe that the core of the tradition is to be open to new influence. I think this is a problem that arised in two separate scenarios. One, with the whole modern traditional musicians, mostly led by Wynton Marsalis. As we all know, his book of jazz ended in 1958. I've been checking out some things from JALC and can see he has started presenting more musicians from the modern age with the JALC orchestra, I saw Kurt was with them recently, although I also don't think Kurt is the embodiment of modern music, it's a step forward.
The other problem is the educational system, where teachers either a) came up with the guys who played like this, so you have an older generation of cats that were in the bebop scene, Barry Harris comes to mind. b) you have teachers who either apprenticed with the guys from a. c) you have teachers who use pre-made resources (solo transcriptions, textbooks, etc) that were written years ago and do not talk about modern music. These educators then ingrain in their student that the only way to play is bebop. But there are many different schools of thought, even in the past, that I personally think are more hip than the Charlie Parker bebop world. There's a lot to be said about the Tristano school, which sadly books cover in two pages while flying through "cool jazz". And back into the topic, I haven't heard many musicians play melodies like those cats could play. There's something to be said about 2 horn frontlines (Lee and Warne) playing these insanely difficult melodies and sounding like they're phrasing as one instrument. Lee is another guy that I think of that can play the hell out of a standard melody also.

But back to the freedom of things. I've been reading this book by the guitarist Joe Morris called Perpetual Frontier. For those who don't know Joe, he's a fantastic guitarist, plays almost exclusively in the free scene. Has recorded and played with all the greats, including Braxton, Joe Maneri, etc. His book is kind of a meta-methodology on free music, and explains it's origins in a great way, mostly by describing that institutionalized music has left it stagnant and those who play in the free style are trying to keep it moving. I wouldn't make it exclusively about them, because many structured musicians are doing so as well, but the idea makes very much sense.

So anyways, I do believe that the best way to learn a melody, or anything by that matter, is copying someone you like. You might get frowned upon if you say "I learned how to play this from listening to Chris Potter" as opposed to saying you learned it from Dizzy Gillespie, but at the same time, you're the one playing your music, not others, there has to be a line where you don't pay attention to criticism, and to me, that line is drawn at taste.
So, as far as learning the melodies, as Christian said, it's all about how you sing it. I don't see the point in learning it in 5 different positions all over the neck. If you have good ears and know your instrument well enough, knowing it in one or two spots will be enough to help you reproduce it on the spot at some point in your playing. I know that studying with Lee Konitz, there will barely be any playing of your instrument, and most of it will be singing and ear training.

**Jonah** · 12-09-2014, 01:57 PM

So anyways, I do believe that the best way to learn a melody, or anything by that matter, is copying someone you like. You might get frowned upon if you say "I learned how to play this from listening to Chris Potter" as opposed to saying you learned it from Dizzy Gillespie, but at the same time, you're the one playing your music, not others, there has to be a line where you don't pay attention to criticism, and to me, that line is drawn at taste.
So, as far as learning the melodies, as Christian said, it's all about how you sing it. I don't see the point in learning it in 5 different positions all over the neck. If you have good ears and know your instrument well enough, knowing it in one or two spots will be enough to help you reproduce it on the spot at some point in your playing. I know that studying with Lee Konitz, there will barely be any playing of your instrument, and most of it will be singing and ear training.

I absolutely agree with that...

Actually at certain point of studying I began to avoid charts on purpose, I wanted to play songs only by ear.. because I suddenly felt that originally it was just like this - and I wanted like to see it from inside... to feel myself that guy with a axe somewhere in the old days who just heard a tune and wants to sing it with his instrument in his way.. nothing more nothing less.

I feel this simple origin in the later sophisticated jazz too...
something like 'I am just out there to tell you the story I heard'

Then I got back to the charts - but I somehow learnt just to pretend I do not have them - like 'ok, I got what you mean, now I'll try to re-play it as if I just heard it'.

**Jonah** · 12-09-2014, 03:12 PM

One, with the whole modern traditional musicians, mostly led by Wynton Marsalis. As we all know, his book of jazz ended in 1958.

But at the same time I saw his concert with Sidney Bichet program - it sounded at the same time traditional and modern. It was not ' museum' performance... it was like he knew how ti find the way of living performance of that music today

**vhollund** · 12-09-2014, 06:56 PM

@OP

On a practical note, in case it hasn't been mentioned
There are alot of melodies that you only need to learn in the original tonality because everybody play it like that
Alot of it is in Bb F or Eb

Noone will ask you to play Giant Steps in …Gb
Or Oleo in F

but the changes of Oleo ("Rythm" ) is basis for a large number of other songs
as well as Jazz Blues changes are
So you transpose them in all tonalities.

Singable songs on the other hand might be transposed for singers though
But then you can have Ireal app ready and read the changes on the spot
Just like everybody else does it these days

**edh** · 12-10-2014, 01:50 AM

#5 struck a chord(no pun intended) with me. Most times if you listen to a song that you want to get under your fingers, the vocal is the original. Much easier to get what is being, originally played, than listening to someone's version of the songs.

Not there's anywrong with that.

**jtizzle** · 12-10-2014, 03:46 AM

Originally Posted by Jonah

But at the same time I saw his concert with Sidney Bichet program - it sounded at the same time traditional and modern. It was not ' museum' performance... it was like he knew how ti find the way of living performance of that music today

Don't get me wrong. Wynton is a monster. He just isn't pushing anything anywhere. He's kind of stuck in one sound which is very disappointing.

Listen to Jason Moran's Fats Waller project. It's VERY rooted in the Fats tradition, but it just sounds so good. You can tell that it's trying to push places. And Jason's own music is very moving, and also extremely rooted.

**vhollund** · 12-10-2014, 08:11 AM

@edh
Completely
Sometimes there are even better versions than the original vocal versions, search for :
Billie Holiday, Ella Fitzgerald, Sarah Vaughan... Frank Sinatra

Just be aware that the original might not be always the version/ tonality copied to Real Book.

**Reg** · 12-10-2014, 10:15 AM

I've worked on real books and other fake books... what is the original. Personally, who would want to perform most tunes in the original form...

My point... jazz players are somewhat like cameleons... we can perform in many styles. I've played a million shows and musicals... why would I want to play standards from shows, musicals and movies in their original forms. Generally they're extremely vanilla straight, (to the point of being nursery rhyme like tonally), If you can't hear them, you just don't or haven't played enough yet.

This other aspect of being able to sing... being able to sing... and being able to hear is very different. I could say if you can't perform the melody on the original instrument performed on, say an oboe etc... then you can't really get or understand what the melody is... but of course that is BS, and so is the being able to sing concept. The singing aspect is just a tool to help you begin to be able to hear. Unless your really working on your vocal skills.

I posted earlier what I think of mastering a melody is...

When you read well and the notated music is articulated well, to the point of reflecting what the melody is... you can master a melody the first time reading through. You also need to have the rest of performance skills together.

The other approach of mastering a melody is knowing what's implied. The style, the phrasing, the feel etc... If you haven't performed, understand or have the technical skills... how could you master a melody when the only way you can perform that melody is to memorize it. (this approach takes years and doesn't always work)

So where I'm going is ... generally most musicians who approach jazz... are not really ready to perform, at least when your talking in terms of Mastering a melody concepts. Most don't have the skills, the understanding, the history etc...

This is not right, wrong, good or bad etc... I'm just trying to put this into context.

As always these are just personal BS opinions...

**vhollund** · 12-10-2014, 10:17 AM

I think the point was to familiarise one self with the melody by listening to vocal versions, not to learn only the original version.
Correct me if i misunderstood, but that does make sense.

Might I note also that often the transcribed versions in real book are pretty simplified and sometimes they include direct errors.
I know that a lot of musicians couldn't care less about the deeper emotions and original intent of a song, but it does nevertheless have artistic merit to check it out.

**dingusmingus** · 12-10-2014, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by jtizzle

A lot of people seem to be obsessed with a "tradition". The more I study the music the more I realize that the so called tradition is leaving it behind. Of course, there's some respect to show the greats, considering my favorite musicians include Lee Konitz and Jim Hall, but that doesn't mean we have to play what they did, although we can allow it to inspire our music.

That being said, modern musicians have found things to practice that older guys didn't. The whole bebop system in existence now with the approach tone methodology and the way I've heard some of my peers and teachers talk about how they took it really far out is something you don't hear in Bird, Bud, Stitt, etc. Also a lot of the modern vocabulary based on superimpositions and intervallic structures also didn't exist in their music. So of course, you might like something a modern musician is doing over what a guy did 60+ years ago. It's natural. I was thinking of Seamus because I'm checking out some of his stuff on Mingus on some record of his I found on youtube. At the same time, I'm currently transcribing Sonny Rollins melody on My One And Only Love. So there is a balance, you know.

I don't want to derail the thread, so I'll say only that I find this really interesting! I hope to buy you a beer and pick your brain the next time I'm in NYC, jtizzle.

**Reg** · 12-10-2014, 10:26 PM

Hey volhollund
my commits were not directed to you...more in general. Sorry if they came off that way.
my points were about what mastering a melody might actually be.

**bediles** · 12-11-2014, 12:32 AM

Something that has helped me is breaking down a large goal/problem into small 'sub problems' to see what issues I'm dealing with and so I can tackle one thing at a time (or multiple if I choose to).
Here's an example...
Problem: Master a melody (whatever that means, and the meaning will probably change as you develop as a player)

Sub-problems:
how many positions to learn it in?
how many keys?
should I lift it or read it?
Can I sing it (is an aural issue)?
Technical (Bop head, chops)?
Should I learn it harmonized with chords?
etc..

Pick a Sub problem: how many positions to learn it in?
sub sub problems:
Do I have a system for organizing melodies on the neck?
are there areas on the neck that I'm less fluent in?
etc

You can keep going to truly figure out what your issues are so you don't bite off more you can chew and so that you can make progress every day (cause if you're not then you need to change your practice method).

**bediles** · 12-11-2014, 12:45 AM

Also, from my experience, mastering a melody AND the harmony of a tune should be lumped together.

-Sing the root movement of a tune
-Sing melody (with lyrics if you want)
-Memorize each notes' function in relation to the changes (and how that looks/sounds on the fretboard)
-Listen to a bunch of versions of the tune (plenty of ideas from prev. posters, singers, different tempos etc.)

Are you going to play the tune with others? maybe learning a more embellished version off a record might not be the best choice if you are.

Also, find a way to be able to transpose melodies around on the neck to cover it completely ...different octaves and keys (what ECJ recommended is great, I usually rely on 2 basic 'ways') Maybe one way is fine for Bop heads

**edh** · 12-11-2014, 02:10 AM

@Reg, I know that you play sessions. I know that you also play studio recordings.

What can I get that has you recording on a tune. I would like to hear you playing "live" on a recording.

I would really like to hear you playing with a band.

Thanks. edh

**Reg** · 12-12-2014, 08:44 AM

Hey edh
Where are you in cal. I gig all over SF Bay Area all the time... out of area as little as possible. Your welcome to come to any gig, you can sit in or I'll be glad to sit in on one of your gigs. I'm very relaxed etc...

I could posts some cuts off some CDs... or I'll try and have someone record something from a gig.

**edh** · 12-12-2014, 08:46 PM

Reg, that would be great. It would be a great lesson on how to play in a "live" situation. Thanks Reg.

BTW, I'm in the south bay. I don't get out much though(disability). If you gig this way let me know, I will try and make the extra effort to get to the gig.

thanks Reg.

edh

**Reg** · 12-12-2014, 10:10 PM

Here are a few rough tracks from new CD... no mix etc... These are basically One Takes, we talked about arrangement then recorded. Will be fixed in mix... it's cheaper.