To players who have Classical Guitars in their arsenal

[mck]

Greetings!

Just wanna ask you guys who play jazz on their classical guitar, whether occasionally or all the time..

Do you use classical guitar technique to play jazz on your classical (right hand technique, left hand technique..)?

Well, I should probably ask you too.. do you NEED classical guitar technique to play jazz on a classical guitar?

Thanks

[fep]

I sometimes play jazz tunes on a classical guitar.

I mostly use a right hand classical technique (taught to me by a classical guitarist).

Occasionally I play with a pick.

I think learning right hand classical technique is very beneficial.

[MattC]

I studied classical for 3 years in college, have occasionally worked on the techniques since and still own a nylon string guitar. I keep it handy and have occasionally practiced jazz tunes on it. I have recently been working on a simple chord melody arrangement of Jobim's Corcovado (Quiet Nights). For that type of thing I apply classical right hand technique. I basically use the same right hand approach when playing a chord melody on a steel string guitar. I don't really practice much single line or improvised stuff on the nylon string. There are of course some great players who improvise single notes lines with classical right hand technique, although probably far fewer than pick (or even thumb) improvisers.

So I'd say it depends on what you're trying to do. If you want to a lot of chord melody work, it would probably make sense to learn and study the basic technique for a while. I agree with Frank that classical technique is useful and worth learning. As far as need, maybe not absolutely necessary. I have a good friend who never had any formal classical guitar training, and he plays solid chord melody with his fingers on both steel and nylon. But some type of finger-style is necessary for some chord melody approaches, simply because it's a way to simultaneously play strings that are not adjacent to each other while not playing the string(s) in between. If you really develop classical right hand technique you can learn to play one note in a chord louder than the others so as to accent it or make it stand out from the accompaniment.

As far as the left hand, not really a lot of difference with the technique anyway. Although the musical material is obviously different and the fingerboard on a nylon string is generally wider, basically the left hand posture and approach is about the same. Perhaps the biggest difference between jazz and classical in terms of left hand is that with classical, it's more codified ("right" and "wrong"), whereas with jazz players there is more variation in approaches (shifting more vs. stretching more, the guys that just use 3 fingers, etc.)

So where you at now? Already own a nylon? Thinking about it?

[rictroll]

I use classical technique when playing finger style on any of my guitars.

I also believe studying classical guitar can be useful (to a jazzer working with chord-meolody) in gaining an understanding of how to arrange music for solo guitar.

[mr. beaumont]

I play a Godin grand concert quite a bit...the neck is same general specs as most classicals, but the action is low...I play it using whatever shred of classical technique my right hand still has, but I play it with a pick and fingers approach too (hybrid picking.)

Im certainly not a purist. But I think some of it comes from growing up with a lot of friends whose parents were from Mexico...there were a lot of nylon string guitars around, and people used picks on em all the time...so it never seemed like sacrilege like some guys make it out to be.

[vintagelove]

Classical technique, is really just another name for good technique (in regards to the plucking hand), so the better you master traditional classical techniques, the better your playing will be, regardless of style.

That being said (when fingerpicking on electric), I find that if I use my thumb (nail) with the same stroke I would use on a classical, it is a bit overpowering. I tend to use the fleshy part of my thumb, while the fingers are in the classical position.

Good luck!!!

[Rob MacKillop]

Classical technique, is really just another name for good technique (in regards to the plucking hand), so the better you master traditional classical techniques, the better your playing will be, regardless of style.

Sorry, vintage love, but I completely disagree with this statement. A "good technique" is one that allows you to articulate the music you are playing, and there are many styles where a classical guitar technique will sound completely inappropriate. Also, there is no one "classical guitar technique" that every one agrees on, for instance, Rest Strokes: not everyone uses them.

You definitely do not need a classical guitar technique to play jazz or Bossa Nova on a classical guitar. It might help if you do, but it equally might not, and is not absolutely necessary. I used to teach classical guitar at the Royal Scottish Academy of Music in Glasgow, and would make the students aware of how the technique has changed over the years.

[targuit]

I studied classical guitar with formal lessons from the age of around twelve for four years. It was an excellent technical foundation for playing guitar and learning to read notation fluently. One of the benefits of good technique includes avoiding injuries or problems with the hands. One mark of a classically trained guitarist is the relative arch in the right wrist and of course how the left hand fingers address the fingerboard.

In terms of jazz I think classical technique is not the last word, as I use hybrid style picking as well for various effects and even a pick on occasion for up tempo single note work. I often thing of the Peruvian guitarist who works with Andrea Bocelli, Ramon Stagnaro, as an example of using a pick with the classical guitar (with cutaway) for articulation.

As an aside about playing nylon classical guitar in a jazz context, I'm recording some ballads with guitar and vocals of some great jazz tunes including Estate by Bruno Martino and What Are You Doing The Rest Of Your Life by Burt Bacharach. I suppose one can argue that these ballads, especially the Bacharach song, are not strictly jazz tunes, but they sound fabulous on the classical guitar. I also use the classical for Jobim and Bonfa bossa nova tunes which I never tire of hearing and playing. One thing that I like with playing jazz on classical nylon string instruments is the emotive content of the tone and fullness and depth of the sonorities on the classical guitar especially in a solo or duet context with vocals. Songs like My Romance or The Shadow of Your Smile come to mind.

I will never forget the "electrifying" effect on me of first hearing Jobim's The Girl From Ipanema on the radio as a young kid. One of those unforgettable moments that inspire young musicians. Music truly is an addiction and from that moment I can surely say I was hooked.

Jay

[vintagelove]

Sorry, vintage love, but I completely disagree with this statement. A "good technique" is one that allows you to articulate the music you are playing, and there are many styles where a classical guitar technique will sound completely inappropriate. Also, there is no one "classical guitar technique" that every one agrees on, for instance, Rest Strokes: not everyone uses them.

You definitely do not need a classical guitar technique to play jazz or Bossa Nova on a classical guitar. It might help if you do, but it equally might not, and is not absolutely necessary. I used to teach classical guitar at the Royal Scottish Academy of Music in Glasgow, and would make the students aware of how the technique has changed over the years.

Well, of coarse everyone is different and finds what works for them. Wouldn't you agree though that the fundamentals are true regardless of your particular style. For instance, making sure the stroke comes from the "knuckle joint" rather than the middle (which gives you that thin pulling sound rather than slicing through the string). Or alternating i m i m etc most of the time (especially as your first learning) It is pretty unlikely someone is going to come up with something that has never been done before. Even if you played some variation of thumb under, it would still benefit anyone to learn at least the basics of the classical traditions. How could it possibly "not help"?

FWIW, my opinion on rest strokes depends entirely on the piece. If your playing a Bach fugue, it is a lot harder to use the rest stroke effectively than say some Villa lobos. For an electric (the way I have them set up, light and fast) I would rarely use a rest stroke as it does not have the dynamic range to really lay into it like a good classical, but if it felt right I may.


P.S. The bottom line is you could learn to play great with your toes, as long as you practice.

[fumblefingers]

Greetings!

Just wanna ask you guys who play jazz on their classical guitar, whether occasionally or all the time..

Do you use classical guitar technique to play jazz on your classical (right hand technique, left hand technique..)?

Well, I should probably ask you too.. do you NEED classical guitar technique to play jazz on a classical guitar?

Thanks

Question 1: no, it tends to loosen up and break down, so to speak.

Question 2: no, not IMO.

[mangotango]

I have a nylon-string guitar (pickup, cutaway). I use it for Latin pieces, purely for the sound. I have no classical training or technique and to be honest, I am too busy trying to be a better jazz player to worry about acquiring any. I have no axe to grind against classical guitar - it just doesn't appeal to me enough to spend time on it.

[mck]

Thank you so much guys. I really appreciate your feedback.

As for "So where you at now? Already own a nylon? Thinking about it?" I got a nylon already, and its a classical guitar. I'm still at the early stages. I'm learning jazz on my classical for now. I'll buy an archtop or some steel when I afford it. I dig the sound of both nylon and steel strings, so it's certainly fine for now..

Solo chord melody playing is what I wanna be able to do one day.. but I would try to build a decent pick technique if I could too so I could find it handy when needed..

BTW, I'd like to ask you another question on the subject if it's okay.. Although it would be done on my classical guitar, would working on folk fingerstyle tunes or alternating bass/country fingerpicking tunes (Merle Travis, Chet atkins, Jerry Reed..) be good for a jazz player in terms of building a good right hand technique?

Working on these types of tunes (besides being more fun to me than classical music) seem very challenging and it should take lot of work, even the easier ones I guess.. but I'm not sure whether a jazz player would benefit from practicing them, more/less so than he would from studying classical guitar technique when it comes to establishing a good right hand fingers technique..

[Bill C]

You might enjoy The Brazilian Guitar Book by Nelson Faria.

[mr. beaumont]

I would think there's no harm in anything that challenges finger independence.

[Cunamara]

If you haven't already done so, check out Gene Bertoncini to listen to and his book "Approaching the Guitar." He's also got a good instructional DVD which is a master class format rather than a step by step approach. Gene is the foremost proponent of nylon string jazz guitar to me. Also check out Romero Lubambo.

[mck]

Thank you guys

[targuit]

In truth one of the hardest things for me with certain Chet Atkins arrangements is that driving alternating bass thumb picking which just does not sound or come 'natural' to me. I have no idea why but it always feels forced somehow for me. Like gymnastics. My versions of Chet's tunes sound more like John Knowles. I do a version of Vincent that is in his genre and also similar to Christopher Parkening's arrangement.

Gene is a cool player, akin to my style of jazz playing. Ralph Towner as well.

Jay

[Woody Sound]

Keep in mind that if the guitar has standard classical string spacing at the bridge, picking takes some getting used to - the strings are farther apart. Especially if you use any kind of "sweep" picking.

[mr quick]

I played classical for 3-4 years, safe to say I've forgotten most of the technique. I have a solid-body 'plug-in' nylon string/classical guitar that I use for jazz whenever I can... I just can't get enough of it! My guitar teacher uses a Yamaha classical guitar for literally every class.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I studied a little in college and then off and on, myself. I'm preparing/brushing up on some stuff for a wedding right now that's classical. For me, most of the benefits are in generalities: finger independence, left and right hand muting, and especially position shifts.

Classical pieces often have position shifts that don't really make any sense until you practice them a good bit and figure out why they're a lot more efficient. It usually has to do with a common finger/fingers between two far removed positions. You don't usually just pick every finger up and start from scratch in a new position. Left-hand fingerings for classical pieces are well-thought-out like pianists fingerings for position shifts. For me, that kind of thinking is very useful, especially with chord-melody playing.

[matt.guitarteacher]

BTW, I'd like to ask you another question on the subject if it's okay.. Although it would be done on my classical guitar, would working on folk fingerstyle tunes or alternating bass/country fingerpicking tunes (Merle Travis, Chet atkins, Jerry Reed..) be good for a jazz player in terms of building a good right hand technique?

Working on these types of tunes (besides being more fun to me than classical music) seem very challenging and it should take lot of work, even the easier ones I guess.. but I'm not sure whether a jazz player would benefit from practicing them, more/less so than he would from studying classical guitar technique when it comes to establishing a good right hand fingers technique..

Mr. B's answer re. general finger independence is what I'd say. It's all good IMO. Play whatever you'd enjoy playing. I'm not a huge efficiency-at-all-cost guy. I think most of your work in different areas has overall benefit, but I will say this: if you're thinking that hours of practice playing country, folk, or blues fingerstyle will translate easily to playing in a jazz style with your fingers, it just ain't so. I spend a lot of time trying to not sound too "folky" with my jazz fingers, and it's hard.

Rhythmically, it's a completely different beast. It doesn't matter how much you swing your paired 8th notes and syncopate, if you play that I-V bass thing it sounds pretty lame. You've got to listen to some piano trios and try to emulate that pianists left hand (really working your 8th note triplet polyrhythms; and that's just to start) as well as that left hand's interaction with the other parts (like the melody and bass).

I say all of that as a student of this stuff myself, not an expert, but I like to play with my fingers and have done a lot of fingerstyle and some classical. Jazz is a different beast, but all of that fingerstyle playing helps. I certainly wouldn't spend a great amount of time playing the other styles if you don't just love it. I only play what I like.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Perhaps the biggest difference between jazz and classical in terms of left hand is that with classical, it's more codified ("right" and "wrong"), whereas with jazz players there is more variation in approaches (shifting more vs. stretching more, the guys that just use 3 fingers, etc.)

+1

William Leavitt's chord etude fingerings are a departure from traditional, left-hand, classical technique and would be considered "wrong" by a lot of people. I think that the fingering approach that Leavitt uses in those studies is most beneficial in playing jazz chord-melody, and better addresses the technical requirements of playing complex, chromatic, jazz harmony in a legato way, especially on a steel string. Many of those etudes simply can't be executed properly using traditional classical technique. Excellent technique material IMO.

[DanielleOM]

I have an Alvarez Yairi CY140 that's been unused for about 20 years. It seems it was a short phase that came and went.

I think the thing that bothered me the most about it, is that I would have to plan ahead what I was going to play on it. If I didn't I would find I would run into problems. The join at the 12th fret with no cutaway would give me headaches if I had not planned a work around. On occasion I am also guilty of fretting with my thumb and just could not do it with the classical guitar.

Doesn't seem to matter how many guitars I own, I tend to gravitate to towards playing one all of the time.


Danielle

[mck]

Thanks for the input guys.

Matt, I really appreciate sharing your thoughts. BTW, I'm using Leavitt method book now and Im practicing on my classical guitar (its all I got now).
Would you think the technique exercises within the book (particularly those regarding the left hand fingerings) might not work well on my classical fingerboard and would call for a steel string instrument to get the best out of them?

[matt.guitarteacher]

You can do it, but each type of instrument tends favor certain things. Some of those chord fingerings and chord etudes may be more difficult with the wider neck, but I'd just do what you can. Understand that some things may not work just because of the limitations of the instrument. In contrast, there are classical fingerings that seem crazy if you're trying to finger them on a steel string.