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How many repetitions do you have to do to put things into your long term memory?
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09-22-2014 11:19 AM
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Never thought of a solid number, depends on the amount/complexity of information...
I will say that if I show a concept to someone else--teach it--I remember it much faster.
Which is why my wife hates when I come in the room and I say "Honey, I need to teach you something."
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One number I've seen used by sports psychologists---and here we're talking about developing a physical skill---is 60 times a day for 21 days. (Not sixty times in a row; maybe six sets of ten, or ten sets of six, throughout the day.)
I don't think there is any magic about the numbers.
Some things are easier for you to learn than others.
But learning anything takes time and this usually involves repetition.
It's worth some effort to keep track of how long it takes you to learn certain things so that you will have a good idea of how much time you will need to learn a new thing like that. (We tend to assume we learn things quicker than we actually do.)
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Careful that's was one of Howard Robert's things might upset the locals. HR said best way to learn something is to teach it to someone else. He said if you are good enough to charge for lessons fine, otherwise find another guitarist or your explain it to your grandmother. HR said if you can explain it, you understand it.
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
HR also said for the body to learn a new physical activity in general takes between 10-100 repetitions. Which ties in with his play it as slow as necessary to play it perfectly. For me easy to deal with playing real slow to learn a new movement if I know I'll only have to do it maybe a 100 times.
Last all this is part HR separating physical learning from mental learning where possible.
Okay I hear the torches being lit I better find shelter.
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I'm confused--do people not like Roberts' teaching?
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That's a good rule of thumb. Originally Posted by docbop
A quote attributed to Einstein is that 'if you can't explain it to a six-year old, you don't understand it.' Albert may have said that but I don't think it's true---there are lots of things a six-year-old is not capable of understanding.
I have also heard this quote with "a child of twelve" and I think that's more like it.
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Some people here think that Howard was wrong about memory, particularly about their being two kinds. It's a rabbit hole no one wants to go down again. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I think it fair to say that most people here have great respect for Howard Roberts as a player and teacher. Some think we now know more about learning than he did and that some of the metaphors he used are less effective now they were a few decades ago.
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I like to visualise the line without the guitar, I see the note names on the fretboard in my mind and hear the sound of each note in my mind.
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I post HR things and they tend to cause a stir with many around these parts, but it's the internet. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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The corollary is also true, at least for me: if you can't explain it well, clearly and succinctly, you don't really know it. And it helps to explain it.
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As I said, this is a good rule of thumb but let us not get carried away. Remember what St. Augustine said about time
"What then is time? If no one asks me, I know what it is. If I wish to explain it to him who asks, I do not know."
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Sigh... I'm over 50 and nothing seems to stay in memory...
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the factor of wanting to learn is also part of the learning curve..the attitude of "..do I have to learn this " to be a musician is a struggle to many that think/wish .. learn 3 chords and your a rock star..
if you know how to learn..then you may only need to play a line a few times in order to "get it"..now..I have met some studio wizards that can pick up a line in one or two takes..they don't have to internalize it..that is..they are just learning it for this one occasion..a quick study..getting to that level takes a lot of discipline and determination..
I have studied some jazz riffs for weeks and am not satisfied with how it sounds..then I slow-mo down..visualize it away from the guitar..and then play it in every key and position possible..invert it..and start it from each note in the line..until I can locate the "block"..usual suspect..lack of concentration..and the worst enemy of any discipline.."i know how to do this already"
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It don't get any better at 65... MORE coffee must stay awake, more things to learn there is still storage left. Originally Posted by losaltosjoe
Sigh... I'm over 50 and nothing seems to stay in memory...
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The memory-through-teaching idea is apparently a thing. I know I've heard it from Stephen Covey.
We Learn:
10% of what we read.
20% of what we hear.
30% of what we see.
50% of what we both see and hear.
70% of what is discussed with others.
80% of what we experience personally.
95% of what we TEACH to someone else.
Source: William Glaser
They misspelled dude's name. Pretty sure it's "Glasser".
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Here's a related question: when do you STOP practicing something?
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Well, you may find that you can stop practicing something, but there will always be something else to take its place. The thing about the guitar, and maybe many other things, is that learning is accumulative: everything you practice well improves everything else. Good scale practice makes arpeggios easier, good arpeggio practice makes chords easier. It generally is best to practice slowly enough that you are not making mistakes; you don't want to learn mistakes.
A very good way to develop a good technique is to strive for tone: a rich, dark, focused tone demands a good technique in both hands, as well as good coordination between the hands. I've found that 10-15 minutes of work on a particular technique over a couple of weeks pretty much gets it into your system. In fact, it's not a bad idea to get a notebook or a page on your computer to write out all the techniques you think you need, then rate them for difficulty, then start practicing the easier ones in 10-15 minute chapters daily. This way, you can work on as many as 15-20 different exercises in 3 hours, gradually replacing the "mastered" ones with the remaining ones from the list. The Leavitt books are laid out well for this kind of work, and there is no good reason to go through the books in the order they are presented; one can jump around a bit to find exercises germane to the technique being improved.
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When microwave dings and the coffee is finished. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
HR had two things he would put limits on when learning new things. First lessons would have a time limit on them, different times for different types of lessons. Then you notice the times start getting shorter as the days go by. HR would say even if note finished stop the lesson and move on to the next. Later in a seminar he explained the reason to learn how to learn fast, to learn to you control your ability to totatlly focus on something. That in order to learn something in less time you had to have total concentration for that time period. That learning to control your ability to focus on something is what you need for doing playing a chart in the studio, or a tune on the bandstand, or other things in life. I know for me when I'm totally focused on something its like I'm slowing down time and have all the time I need to read ahead on a chart.
HR other thing was limiting how long you study a large topic, that you should limit that to 21 days. So say you learning theory and what to learn how to spell all your chords up to the seventh. That's a large chunk of info to tackle. Your would spend time on it everyday and then after 21 days stop, put away the materials and move on. HR said that after the 21 days the subconscious is now working on the info and doing its checks and organizing. He is when the subconscious is unsure about something it will have you think about it. He said has everyone had as some point they are driving or watching TV or something and out of nowhere you mentally ask yourself something like "what is the 7th of GMa7?", that the subconscious continuing to work on the topic. Also HR would say when testing yourself while trying to learn a big topic, or a spelling list or whatever, once you know some bit of info, stop studying it. It can create issues and also you create more time for the things you haven't learned yet. I have heard that same thing in other sources on studying, once you know something trust you know it and move on take it out of your routine studying.Last edited by docbop; 09-22-2014 at 10:23 PM. Reason: updated
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I haven't figured that one out. I guess when you play it all the time already. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Amateurs practice until they get it right. Professionals practice until they can't get it wrong. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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That is a great line. Originally Posted by monk
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I've always believed... it's not how much you practice something over time... it how much time you put into single practice sessions. Sorry not that clear, I'll give an example.
Guitarist practice sight reading for years, an hour every other day for a year or some type of steady schedule, long term practice... it doesn't really work, you never actually become very good at sight reading. You need to put in long hard periods of time... and actually raise the level of whatever your trying to become better at, in my example sight reading.
six hours on one day a week as compared to... one hour a day for six days a week.
And I as always completely agree with Henry about the understanding thing... if you don't understand what your playing, your memorizing and you'll always hit walls. Generally that's really OK for most musicians, your not going to need to perform new material the first time you see or hear something... but if you have a choice.
An example might be... think of the spatial concept, The Form of a tune, If you understand the form, the actual number of bars of the tune, the sections and their number of bars, you will basically always at least be aware of where your at in that tune.
The next level would be understanding the harmonic references and relationships within the tune and between the sections etc... you can keep becoming aware of more levels of relationships within a tune. You'll begin to mechanically understand the tune as compared to just memorizing and plug and playing what you memorize.
Don't go for the BS about feeling what you play etc... the feel aspect becomes much more real when you understand as compared to the magic when things go right. It not magic for music to be performed at higher levels.
There are very physical reasons why what I play is generally in the pocket, rhythmically and harmonically, without practice.
But again... not everyone really needs or wants those options.
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Yeah, that's what I was thinking about when I asked when to stop practicing something. Originally Posted by docbop
I have found that if I work on something for too long (-every day for a month) it stops getting better.
I have also found that sometimes when I go to play something I haven't played for a few days, it comes easier than I remembered it being the last time I tried it.
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I like that a lot, Reg. Originally Posted by Reg
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Sometimes I think that falls into a "concepts vs. particulars" category or something...
For example, I don't practice drop 2 voicings...I know them, and they get enough use in my day to day playing that I'm not going to forget them.
But I can definitely forget a specific tune if I don't keep at it...
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