Experienced rock guitarist needs some direction playing jazz

**stevehollx** · 09-17-2014, 10:22 AM

I've been playing guitar for about 11 years now, and have been fairly comfortable in rock settings playing solos of chord progressions. I've always dug the fusion playing of Howe, Govan, Kotzen, Henderson, Holdsworth, etc. especially when they step outside. As a result, I've realized that I would like to understand Jazz theory better so that I can take a jazz approach to phrasing in my improvisation; however, I'm honestly lost on where to dive in.

I know my church modes up the entire neck. Most of my experience in soloing/improvising has been to look at the chord progression (usually just triads or fifth chords; rarely stuff with 7,9,11 intervals), determine the notes in the progression, and then pick a single mode to use over that progression that contains the underling notes of the progression. My soloing will then stick to the notes in that mode, but my note centering will shift based on what underling chord is being played. Admittedly, the latter part of what notes to center on is mostly done by feel.

I plan to take some Jazz lessons next summer when some of my free time will open up, but in the interim I've got some books to dig through: Levine's Jazz Theory, the Berklee Jazz Harmony book, and Ted Greene's single note soloing. I plan to spend more time with my nose in this books, but after a skim they haven't been enlightening for me to change my approach. I'm not looking for overnight success obviously, but I feel like I'm missing some big picture approaches to jazz harmony that I haven't been able to get clarity on yet.

I've seen some conflicting descriptions of what playing through changes truly means. Some seem to imply that my approach described above is playing through changes. Though I hear others refer to specific modes for every chord progression (i.e. 'Play Dorian over Am, and Lydian over GM7'). Are people really changing their entire note selection under every time the chord changes (e.g. for the above example, using the C when playing Dorian over Am, and using the C# when Lydian over the GM7)? Is that what I should be working to achieve--playing individually different scales/modes over each chord as it changes?

Any advice from others that cross the chasm from rock to jazz? Any nice single sources of information that would be at the right depth for me?

**docbop** · 09-19-2014, 10:06 PM

You remind me of the Rock guitarist in school when they had to take a Jazz improv class. They have to solo on a set of changes and blow thru them with a single scale or mode and say see it works. They get into some of the strangest explanation of how one scale with theoretical acrobatic fits. Of course they are playing shredder approach praying speed will hide all the notes that didn't fit. Bottom line record you solo and play it back can you hear all the chord changes coming through in your solo? If you take the recording of you solo and slow it down are the line musical or do they sound like scale practice.

As soon as I read this >>> Levine's Jazz Theory, the Berklee Jazz Harmony book, and Ted Greene's single note soloing. I plan to spend more time with my nose in this books, but after a skim they haven't been enlightening for me to change my approach. <<< pretty much knew where the rest of this is going. Do you even understand what "making the changes" means in a Jazz context? Can you spell the chords you are trying to play over. If you can't spell the chord how are you going to know what are the key notes to use in the scale. To use my favorite Jerry Bergonzi quote... "Knowing the right scale might get you into the ballpark, you're still not on base"

First you need to decide how serious you are about really learning music, especially Jazz music. You're probably a good player, but there is a lot to learn to go from player to musician. Relax, doing LOTS and LOTS of listening to Jazz. Then take small bites of theory and chew thoroughly, its a long road and rushing doesn't help. Enjoy.

**fumblefingers** · 09-19-2014, 10:28 PM

Fep believes in "intro to jazz guitar soloing" and the connecting game. it might be a good place to start.

Aebersold's major/minor too, and Dom7 workout.

Also explore various jazz/blues sources (Truefire, many others.) a nice gateway into jazz for a blues/rocker.

Bert Ligon's book on playing through changes is a good source but more advanced.

as Doc said, it does help to know harmony and theory but DON'T let that be a big hurdle. you don't have to be a guru first, and then start to play. that's a big, big mistake.

(someone gave an example a couple of weeks ago about a lesson with George Benson where Benson kept throwing out chords and quizzing the student to name them. after a while it became apparent that Benson was asking him because he (Benson) did not know their names. But that certainly hasn't held him back because he worked out a system that sounds great with them. he knows them, he just doesn't know their names perfectly, or at least at the drop of a hat. no one is recommending tat you do the same, just learn a little harmony at a time and play all the time.

**tacofarm** · 09-20-2014, 12:35 AM

playing changes=playing arpeggios of each chord (experiment with adding extensions too)

From the sound of it you need to work on your arpeggios, on two strings, three strings, across the neck, in all inversions. Pick a jazz standard you like, put a metronome on, and play the arpeggios of each chord. Practice your comping too, freddie green four to the bar, charleston, make a backing track for yourself.... learn 30 jazz melodies...

**cosmic gumbo** · 09-20-2014, 04:32 AM

Remember, Jazz Guitar Online is way more than just a forum...you could spend a long time going over this stuff before you ever had to buy a book.

Free Jazz Guitar Lessons | Learn How To Play Jazz Guitar

**princeplanet** · 09-20-2014, 04:39 AM

Rock/Blues to Jazz eh? The bad news is it's harder than you think... The other bad news is that you have to "unlearn" much of your Rock habits, both mechanical, as well as the thinking part (the hardest).

Here's what they never tell you - it's not just a matter of playing the right chord tones, arpeggios and modes as well as the hundreds of substitutions there are to learn (yes, hundreds!)... There's years of 3 hours a day practice just getting that together in every key, every position etc against the common chord progressions or full tunes. Then there's altered concepts, MM modes, triad pairs, quartal concepts, modal mixture, symmetrical scales..... Then there's ways to practice each of these hundreds of scales, each in hundreds of ways (see Coker etc).

Phew! - OK, so 10 years later, can you play Jazz yet? Maybe not, because playing Jazz means far more than just playing the correct pool of notes! It's the way you play them!!!! Analyse any great jazz solo, you don't find scale runs, you find embellished chord tones, chromatic devices, targeting etc etc, but mostly great melodic ideas borne out of years of analysing and absorbing the language to a point where one can start formulating one's own language.

So yeah, while you can be a good rock/blues guitarist with about 12 months of practice, 12 years of Jazz practice can still leave you well below average for a jazz player if you don't understand the importance of developing a flexible language. You can't just bluff your way with scales/arpeggios like you can with Rock....

**AlainJazz** · 09-20-2014, 06:16 AM

Stevehollx,

my advice to you: www.jbguitarworkshop.com

Save yourself years of wasted time and effort.

**pierre richard** · 09-20-2014, 09:01 AM

check out Bob Kellers Jazz Page...

much material there that will answer lots of questions...

listen to the masters play and what they play over the changes..

and as was said above...its not the notes but how they are played...

time on the instrument...

**mr. beaumont** · 09-20-2014, 09:12 AM

Am I reading the OP wrong? It sounds like he doesn't want to play jazz, but rather, take a jazz approach to his music?

**princeplanet** · 09-20-2014, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Am I reading the OP wrong? It sounds like he doesn't want to play jazz, but rather, take a jazz approach to his music?

Yeah, but he's referencing some heavy hitters who know most of the things that Jazz folk do, no?

Anyway, how can you take a "jazz approach", even to something like Fusion, without knowing what we're all trying to learn? The best fusion guys had a solid background in bop and post bop concepts. Ditto the best "Free" players. Could you go from playing Rock to Free Jazz and sound convincing to people who know the genre?

**jay126** · 09-20-2014, 09:33 AM

I came here looking for the same advice, very helpful insight. But i have to say, some of it is demoralizing...12 years and still below average? Really? With all due respect it's this thinking that turns people away from such an amazing art form. All art should be respected for its depth and history but I prefer to enjoy the ride than to be bogged down about how awesome one has to be in order to be considered above average.

Having said that, where can us non-enlightened rockers start? Arpeggios? How do we plan practice time to hit the most important aspects of jazz guitar.

Thank you so much. Not trying to be contentious, just a little bewildered by jazz and the jazz community.

**princeplanet** · 09-20-2014, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by jay126

I came here looking for the same advice, very helpful insight. But i have to say, some of it is demoralizing...12 years and still below average? Really? With all due respect it's this thinking that turns people away from such an amazing art form. All art should be respected for its depth and history but I prefer to enjoy the ride than to be bogged down about how awesome one has to be in order to be considered above average.

Having said that, where can us non-enlightened rockers start? Arpeggios? How do we plan practice time to hit the most important aspects of jazz guitar.

Thank you so much. Not trying to be contentious, just a little bewildered by jazz and the jazz community.

With all due respect, if you wanna pay jazz, you should give it all due respect. If you're surprised that you can be below average after 12 years, then you don't appreciate the road ahead...

Not saying you can't learn a few chord shapes and some licks and have some fun, but that's not being a Jazz musician.

I know lots of Rock guys from my line of work and can safely say that none of them have any idea how much work it takes to be Ben Monder, or Rosenwinkle, or.....

Don't be put off, be turned on by the challenge. It's all about the journey anyway, ain't it?

**fumblefingers** · 09-20-2014, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Rock/Blues to Jazz eh? The bad news is it's harder than you think... The other bad news is that you have to "unlearn" much of your Rock habits, both mechanical, as well as the thinking part (the hardest).

Here's what they never tell you - it's not just a matter of playing the right chord tones, arpeggios and modes as well as the hundreds of substitutions there are to learn (yes, hundreds!)... There's years of 3 hours a day practice just getting that together in every key, every position etc against the common chord progressions or full tunes. Then there's altered concepts, MM modes, triad pairs, quartal concepts, modal mixture, symmetrical scales..... Then there's ways to practice each of these hundreds of scales, each in hundreds of ways (see Coker etc).

Phew! - OK, so 10 years later, can you play Jazz yet? Maybe not, because playing Jazz means far more than just playing the correct pool of notes! It's the way you play them!!!! Analyse any great jazz solo, you don't find scale runs, you find embellished chord tones, chromatic devices, targeting etc etc, but mostly great melodic ideas borne out of years of analysing and absorbing the language to a point where one can start formulating one's own language.

So yeah, while you can be a good rock/blues guitarist with about 12 months of practice, 12 years of Jazz practice can still leave you well below average for a jazz player if you don't understand the importance of developing a flexible language. You can't just bluff your way with scales/arpeggios like you can with Rock....

this is overwrought.

**targuit** · 09-20-2014, 10:37 AM

My advice is simple - use your ears and sing the melody. Can you play the melody to the songs by ear in any key? Can you harmonize the melody in any key? For now I would forget about "determining which modes to play over what chord in the progression" nonsense. Until you can play what you hear, you will waste hours and years of valuable time playing "hunt and peck" with the CST business. Learn specific songs. Once you can play them by ear, then you can improvise.

If you do want to learn an approach to harmony that works pretty well, learn the harmonized scale of the major and minor keys. For example, in C: Cmaj7 - Dm7 - Em7 - F - G7 - Am7 - Bdim7 - Cmaj7. That is major. Learn the equivalent chord colors in Cmin. Start there. Don't worry about "dorian, locrian, mixolydian"...unless you want to learn to chant the modes as you play - although there is an audience for that here.

Above all else, learn specific songs, as Bucky Pizzarelli and Frank Vignola said. Bucky says "Learn one song a week for 52 weeks." Then, you can reappraise modes and CST. As far as learning the songs, start by playing the chords as arpeggios - think about it. If you can play the arpeggio, right there is a "pool of notes" in the context of which you must understand the intervals of the specific chord and the melody will "lie under your fingers". Chord study is an important element to this enterprise. But don't overintellectualize this deal - unless what you play sounds lyrical with good voice leading, it won't matter a hill of beans whether you are in dorian or mixolydian. Nada.

**fumblefingers** · 09-20-2014, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by jay126

I came here looking for the same advice, very helpful insight. But i have to say, some of it is demoralizing...12 years and still below average? Really? With all due respect it's this thinking that turns people away from such an amazing art form. All art should be respected for its depth and history but I prefer to enjoy the ride than to be bogged down about how awesome one has to be in order to be considered above average.

Having said that, where can us non-enlightened rockers start? Arpeggios? How do we plan practice time to hit the most important aspects of jazz guitar.

Thank you so much. Not trying to be contentious, just a little bewildered by jazz and the jazz community.

don't be discouraged by the overdone note above. learn 12 bar blues in the jazz style first.

i'm not sure about your level but i would say that while a lot of the advice here is solid depending on context you CAN start in a much more simple manner!

a good example of this is Berklee online course intro to jazz improv (see link below)

but - you can do this more cheaply by covering the simple 12 bar blues with only I, IV, V chords. play more melodic phrases without bends. question and answer style. don't worry about arpeggios, just melodies and phrases. don't overplay.

then modify the turn around very slightly (see another post here on jazzing up a simple blues progression). on the "jazz chord" turnaround DO use some modest arpeggiation ideas but keep it simple. make them fit the style and mood of the other phrases that you have played.

you are now playing jazz/blues, and you are now playing jazz.

http://online.berklee.edu/courses/basic-improvisation

**jay126** · 09-20-2014, 11:15 AM

Where did I say I did't respect the scope of jazz? In actuality, I am a jazz drummer and teacher. But rock guitarist, I've only been playing since December. Anyway, when someone expresses interest in jazz I don't try to blow their mind with the complexities of it all, I encourage them to learn in an inspiring way. But yes, it's about the journey.

Thanks Targuit and Fumblefingers, your insight is much appreciated.

**jay126** · 09-20-2014, 11:59 AM

Thanks again for the advice on starting with blues and harmonized major scales. I will certainly dive in. And sorry stevehollx for hijacking your original post.

**pkirk** · 09-20-2014, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by jay126

Having said that, where can us non-enlightened rockers start? Arpeggios? How do we plan practice time to hit the most important aspects of jazz guitar.

Thank you so much. Not trying to be contentious, just a little bewildered by jazz and the jazz community.

Probably the place to start is by a lot of listening, and learning the history. A month of several hours a day listening to the music, starting with Louis armstrong, then Ellington/Basie, then Bop (parker, bud powell, monk) then Trane, and then everything that came after will do more than 12 years of learning arpeggios. The old stuff will sound hokey if you are coming from rock, but as your ear adjusts you eventually "get" how hip it is. In particular it is impossible to learn jazz without having absorbed the history. Most of the amateur jazz guitarists who focus on scales/modes etc and only listen to a narrow style of jazz (e.g. joe pass) never are able to make progress into the music.

and then you'll be prepared to dig something like this

and be amazed that this level of intensity was happening years before Hendrix, not to mention Metal etc. Elvin was a badass when rock-n-roll was still guys in matching outfits signing la-la-la.

**targuit** · 09-20-2014, 02:52 PM

Nice link - btw, the most progressive playing here is the pianist - McCoy Tyner. By a country mile.

**richb2** · 09-20-2014, 03:06 PM

My advice is to take Sheryl Bailey's Bebop Dojo course up on Truefire.com . She is a super dedicated teacher and a really top player. The Bebop Dojo has enough lessons on exactly what you need to know and Sheryl answers questions directly. Her method is very arpeggios based but with all the other stuff mixed in (depending how deep you want to go). Let her know that I recommended her class for you. You will definately not need 12 years like a good scotch!

Here is her story.
http://truefire.com/classrooms/sherp...m=SherylBailey

-RichB2

**AlainJazz** · 09-20-2014, 08:53 PM

Again, Check out Jimmy Bruno's site if you don't want to waste 12 years getting there. His approach to improvisation is what you are looking for and although he uses Jazz tunes to demonstrate concepts (which he does really well), the concepts are universal to any type of music you want to play.

**pingu** · 09-20-2014, 09:37 PM

Aaaaaaaaagh .......... don't be put off by the
"you gotta know everything in all 37 keys and 17 inversions" thing
I don't think thats right at all

I think
It should be ........
hear some jazz type lick you like and want to steal (a small thing ... a diamond)
Steal it .........
then analyze it ,ie what scale did that come from ??
why did he/she play that Db7 lick over the G7 chord etc etc

Its more like a voyage of discovery thing than a technical thing

Also do some chord-melody ... make sure to work it out by ear though
Take 'All of Me' in C (why not Take All of Me ? in C)
start on the tonic C at the 8th posn top string
you know all the shapes anyway , have fun

This Forum is a great resource if you get stuck on something specific
but be specific , we tend to like to have semantic arguments
to distract us from practicing

**richb2** · 09-20-2014, 10:08 PM

and adding to Pingu's accurate take, ignore the bitter posters who say that you have to "know everything" in order to play jazz. They have wasted their lives wanting to be "the best" and why shouldn't you too? That cynical attitude has turned away many, many people who have come to this forum with the same question that you have- "where do I start?". Just my opinion.....

**jay126** · 09-21-2014, 12:03 AM

Thank you all for offering these fantastic suggestions. You offered some tangible stuff I can work with. And I'm definitely going to check out Truefire.

I hope the person who started this thread sees this, lots of great suggestions.

**princeplanet** · 09-21-2014, 01:39 AM

Sure, that's all fine then. Let's encourage all crossovers from rock and blues to aim for jazz medocrity. Just sign up for Spoonfed Jazz for Dummies.com and sound like every other wedding band hack! The world of Jazz needs more pedestrians! That will help broaden it's appeal to the average listener and ensure the future for this great art form. Yay team!

.....

OK, maybe a bit harsh (especially when coming from a journeyman such as myself

) - but I always feel these threads need at least one devil's advocate, it's just that the real cats who are qualified to kick all our asses around here are usually too polite and humble to tell it like it is ... A bit of "tough love" ain't a bad thing for the aspiring jazz player and seems to have been a common theme for many of the greats who came up in the competitive scene that propelled them to excel.

Look, I also get that we're not all necessarily aiming for "excellence" around here, but some might be, and surely they deserve better advice than the usual JB, Truefire etc solutions. Some of us even feel that "real" courses like the Berklee model etc are also too "cookie cutter" in churning out competent yet uninspiring players .

And then there are others that say the real "school" is all there in the history of recorded Jazz, and those who take the hard road and figure it out for themselves - using their own "taste" to guide all their own learning - will be the ones who add something unique to the art form. I'm with those guys, if you're gonna bother to learn Jazz, why be an "also ran" ?

Miles always said "Go down a different road", and we don't argue with Miles....