-
I spent 20+ years ripping licks off from Eric Clapton and B.B. King, and although I listen to more jazz than anything else it was blues and rock that I played and gigged.
The older I get the more board I am with playing in that style (nothing against it, I personally just wasn't enjoying like I was at a younger age).
So most of my time now is spent playing and learning jazz tunes. It almost makes me sick to think of how much time I've spent listening to it the past 40 years, but never really put any time or effort into learning how to play it.
When I started I was all about the "study" and "technical" side of things (i.e.: theory, harmony, scales, modes, etc.), but the more I get into it the more I learn by simply focusing on the following four area and/or activities:
1) Sing what I hear (whether that be from another artist, melody, head, from your own imagination, etc.)
2) Work on my ability to play what I sing
3) Learn great tunes
4) The above are my primary focus, and then #4 comes down to breaking the above down into things that help explain to me "why" things work (i.e.: theory, harmony, scales, modes, etc.)... I still enjoy this last step, but I tend to get more out of this when it is the last part of what I do rather than just starting from this point (which is really all I was focused on when I started)
The above may not be for everyone, but it's been a good formula for me, and allows me to really enjoy what I do.
-
10-14-2014 01:17 PM
-
I am with you there. I spent my youth in the 70's playing in funk bands in the UK. I was never really a rock musician.
Originally Posted by acoustictones
The kind of music I was listening to ranged from Coltrane, Davis, Montgomery, Martino to Weather Report, Metheny, McLaughlin and a whole host of others. 4000 vinyl albums says that I love jazz. However a very recent visit to the States saw me at a Lage Lund gig at the Jazz Standard NY recognising how little I actually know in comparison to what I was seeing on stage. It was a lesson in how to accompany a soloist and use partial chords as well as some very complex single note soloing. It seems that there are some really excellent players working in New York at the moment like Jonathan Kreisberg, Joel Harrison, Kurt Rosenwinkel and Lage Lund.
I know that I could never scale the heights these player have reached but I can take elements from jazz to make my own playing more interesting (or less boring). Studying jazz standards to find out how extended chords can be used and trying it out in my own writing - learning some basic harmony and what notes fit over those changes/chords - often a case of recording a sequence and plying over it. Unfortunately a very busy career and other commitments has mean't that I did not always have the time I would have liked to study - although recent retirement has meant that I now have a lot more time.
There must be a lot of people like me and the OP who wish to improve our playing but recognise the time you need to turn yourself into a "real" jazz player might well be outside our scope. I would like to think that I was capable of maintaining a steady improvement with the aim of being able to play something approaching jazz with the realisation that time may not be on my side. My only real advantage is that my ears tell me what I want to hear even if my fingers cannot deliver.Last edited by silhouette; 10-15-2014 at 11:22 AM.
-
OK... here's the next step or level of playing through changes.
Hopefully you understood my last post so you would have a method of playing through changes and creating different relationships and developing those relationships... Whether it's creating harmonic or melodic movement or embellishing a stagnant or stationary chord.
So there are different methods of implying changes... Chord tones with typical voice leading, both from standard functional harmony and from common jazz practice. Different but both achieve the same result... harmonic movement, with some type of functional guidelines.
So you can also imply changes with modal concepts. Using characteristic pitch(s), common modal chord patterns. Or from common modal jazz practice, from jazz tunes. Basically like trial and error, memorize examples and use them to imply changes. This second example opens the Melodic Min. door, Jazz uses harmony from MM more in the style of substitution through Modal interchange than in the typical functional manor.
The last method which is like a modal concept... is the use of Blue Notes and their typical common practice. Blue notes can be derived from using MM through Modal interchange, through melodic patterns like pentatonic or other non scale patterns, melodic embellishment or from again established common practice usage. Tunes and our memorization of those tunes and then using those examples to imply harmony.
So take these concepts and call them plug and play devices to play through changes... now you can create different guidelines for these devices by changing the basic reference of control. Tonal references have guidelines... modal concepts change which notes control the guidelines of tonality.
I'm trying to keep this simple... it does take a little practice and I'm skipping most of the details in hope of understanding the basic concepts of how to play through changes.
-
Reg, I'm glad to say I understand a lot more of what you're talking about now than I used to. You always present a very holistic viewpoint to all of jazz and the tunes/approaches themselves. You emphasize how everything is connected and it's not as simple as just plugging in something over a specific cord. I like that . No BS. Everything's not so simple.
In my mind, most of modern education is very small minded and reductionist. So it's a refreshing perspective.
I guess for most of us, it's really on us to ask good follow-up questions. Of course, that means admitting what we don't understand about what you're saying. :-)
You present so much at once, it can be a little overwhelming.
Ok. For me, There's so much in just that small part. Take just the first part: chromatic approach notes. I'm assuming we get dominant five of the target chord from that and it's tritone. I guess those are basic? What other are some other examples of the types of things that could be implied by the chromatic approach notes ? Originally Posted by Reg
Type of function vs. Reinforcing the target. I'd like to know more about what you're thinking there too. I'm thinking the dominant function reinforces the target . I guess they're connected? Maybe I don't understand exactly what you mean. :-) Originally Posted by Reg
Thanks always for your input.
-
Hey Matt, thanks for all...
So sure, chromatic approach notes generally imply something harmonically. There are millions of options, if you just play the numbers game,
Take any target note, imply a harmonic reference, right there we're into a lot of choices... lets say the chromatic approach of "E" to "F", and make the "F" the lead note of Bbmaj7, and call that Bbmaj7 our tonal target. Our Imaj7 chord.
So start with using same root note of "Bb" and start approaching our target of Bbmaj7 with "F" as the lead note,
Mechanically plug and play. Bbmaj7#11, Bb-7b5, Bbdim7 , Bb7#11 basically any Bb chord with a #11 or b5
Now just start changing the root note and go through the same substitution process, example Chords with a "Bb" root note, then "A", "Ab" etc.. so you end up with lots of physical choices.
Now put that chromatic note into a Context, we're calling Bbmaj7 out tonic, our One chord.
There are levels of creating relationships... when I decide to call or label that "E" approach note with a harmonic reference, I generally want to have organization... some reason why I decided to choose a specific chord for that "E" chromatic approach note. Even if I just decide to call it a constant structure Grace Note... now Grace Chord, I should try and have as many other reason why I decided to use the choice of constant structure with reference to the Context... Bbmaj7.
So Amaj7 to Bbmaj7...So is that Amaj7 really just some type of sub. What is the functional relationship.
Is the Amaj7 derived from a dominant type of function, sub for F7, through Tritone and Modal interchange etc... Like in the tune What's New"< I know different Key but same function....or
Is it from a sub-dominant type of function, say a diatonic sub for F#-7 B7, where the B7 is only implied...
Whatever type of relationship I want to create and develop... with organization in relationship to the target chord or the Tune.
So then maybe look for Modal relationships... Make the approach note..."E" an A-7, A-7 to Bbmaj7.
That relationship could very easily be organized with Bbmaj7 being a Lydian tonal center, using the characteristic pitch of "E" as Dominant type of relationship... A-7 with characteristic pitch "E" resolving to Bbmaj7. Or D-9 resolving to Bbmaj7, or Fmaj7 resolving to Bbmaj7...
So I'm just playing plug and play harmonic functional games... But with composition or improve, that's basically what I do,
I'm trying to reinforce what ever harmonic functional BS the Tune, Target or I choose. And generally most of these types of organization fall into typical Jazz Common Practice...
Use of Modal concepts
Use of Modal Interchange
Use of Melodic Minor
Use of Blue Notes
I would hope this somewhat deals with types of Function... and what those types of Function are used for. Whether it's with reference to the entire Tune or a Target. But maybe not... I'll gladly get into more detail...
Basically function is at rest or has Tonic function....... It wants to resolve to Tonic or has Dominant function..... or it wants to move to either Tonic or Dominant and has Sub-dominant function. Throw in different contexts, some different guidelines, some other terms and your covered.
-
cool stuff
... I'm just getting into some of these subs myself. Still studying the regular changes too!
Still have to look at superimposing the minor ii V on the major ii V.
Originally Posted by Reg
it seems like with some of these...there is the dynamic of rhythm section and the soloist.
Another dynamic would be pre-composed subs vs. improvised subs.
IOW if I'm playing solo I might be more free to choose certain subs.
Or if its pre-composed...then I can do whatever.
But in an ensemble then I might be the one comping, or soloing - so then some of these subs might not be appropriate.
Is that right? Like I said I'm just getting into some of these concepts.
e.g. I know about approach chords - like using the same quality chord 1/2 step above.
but I'm not sure if its a good idea to use when comping in an ensemble unless everyone knows about it?
Originally Posted by Reg
in this case the subs are really just different aspects of that sound: is that right?
e.g. Bbmaj7#11 I know I can play "A minor pentatonic" on that same change (but its not really Am pent, its just certain notes of Bbmaj7#11).
I never looked at it in the way you're describing but it makes sense. i.e. targeting the F with the "characteristic note" E...and then extrapolating that out to different chords.
so in this example its not a "functional change" : the function is on the I chord.
In that case I could also target the E with F and play Bbmaj7 D-9
...if I wanted to "resolve" to the "characteristic note"
I never looked at D-9 before...I'll have to check that out. Its cool because the 9th is the characteristic tone, but it also contains the target tone of F (in this example.)
There's also C7 Bbmaj7 for lydian...that one I'm more familiar with.
-
Would anyone be averse to having a discussion that would illustrate what Reg is talking about in relation to a particular song? I have been recording versions of a song that I like very much, but would like to abbreviate because it has one of the longest titles in the repertoire - What Are You Doing the Rest of Your Life - a ballad written by Michel LeGrand and lyrics by the Bergmans. I suggest this because if you really want to analyze a jazz standard from the point of view of jazz harmonies, extensions, and other aspects, I think it would be helpful to speak concretely to illustrate concepts rather than purely in the abstract. One could refer to a particular version such as that by Johnny Mathis in Am, which is also a key used by Johnny Smith, so those who want to create solo arrangements would particularly benefit from this type of analysis.
If anyone would like to do this as an interesting thread but separately from this one, tell me and I'll start this separately. I think many could benefit from insights from Reg, Henry, and others looking at a concrete tune that is a beauty and lends itself to a dramatically effective arrangement. Another excellent version is by Chris Botti and Sting on YT. I think this could be both educational and a lot of fun. I have already recorded "work tape" versions of this tune, and I intend to go for final version this weekend. What do you all think?
Jay
-
Hey Jazz4ever... glad to hear your getting into use and understanding of subs... it's basically how jazz players play.
And yes as you say the dynamic of the ensemble or players performing is always out front. But what generally happens is that many of the applications of different organizational approaches... like use of subs, become jazz common practice.
Much like most would easily use the II- or the V7 when seeing either chord from a II V. Example, You see A-7 going to G-7, most would easily hear that chord pattern become... A-7 D7#9 / G-7 C7, or A-7 Ab13 / G-7 E7#9
Or D7#9 going to G-7, again easily hear D7#9 becoming A-7 D7#9 / G-7 C7... or / A-7 D7#9 / G-7 E7#9 /
These are very common practice chord pattern with use of II V's and subs.
And when you begin to know more jazz tunes and play gigs with different people from around the world, your ears would begin to recognize more very common jazz practice applications of subs, Chord Patterns derived from the tunes, from use of modal concepts, etc... Jazz common practice.
You could also develop an understanding of what and where these applications are from, why they work.
There is always the location of what your playing. There are strong and weak patterns, there is also generally a Harmonic Rhythm of which the tune is based on... the beginning reference.
Somewhat like an Rhythmic accent pattern. A groove, as long as you don't detract or trash the starting groove... there is usually room to create relationships.... add some accents or kicks, fill some space... and also develop those.
Of course... you do need to have some type of clue as to what your doing, random unorganized usage generally doesn't get call backs.
As to your usage of A-7 going to Bbmaj7... It's not always just subs... in the modal example, the use of A-7 with the characteristic pitch resolving to Bbmaj7, the tonic chord without the characteristic pitch... this is example of creating a different tonal organizational system. Changing the notes which create function, Using different organization of notes to create harmonic movement... Function.
And yes you can have modal organization which uses the characteristic pitch to imply resolution.
Generally with Jazz I keep function simple... what makes the music move. What are the mechanical aspects that create that tension for harmonic movement.
There are usually a few organizational concepts going on at the same time, helps create the possibility of where music could go. There are options, which could lead to different relationships which can be developed.
Yea Jay we could pick a tune... WAYDTROYL... is really grounded in Har. min, standard Maj/Min functional harmony, but I could very easily play through and show examples of different jazz applications.
Just remember... this style of performance is not really designed to be used for memorized performance practice. It could be... but then you might as well just sight read the part. Although for use with compositional and possible arrangements etc... can help make old charts more fun to play or listen to. But part of the process is not knowing where the improvisation might go.
-
Lots of helpful information here, solid posts on this page from reg.
I enjoy some of those sorts of fusion-shred type dudes (specifically Guthrie Govan). To my ears, Henderson and Holdsworth are more straight-up fusion dudes who are really coming from a place somewhere in the jazz tradition, especially Holdsworth. I don't want to get into some pedantic genre discussion, but to me guys like Govan and Howe are more of a 'shred-fusion' sort of thing. They are known to borrow from that kind of musical aesthetic and at times what they're playing is more in line with rock than jazz. I'm going to use Govan as my example for a lot of this, but most of this applies to the other dudes (again less so Holdsworth and Henderson, especially Holdsworth). So, here are some overarching concepts musical concepts you might find handy in getting that 'jazzy' sound.
Lines Versus Patterns
With Guthrie Govan a big place where you hear his jazz influence is that a lot of times he isn't playing patterns and sequences but actual melodic lines. Generally once he crosses 150 BPMS 16th notes, you'll hear him go into shred mode with much more patternistic stuff. At 1:46 in this video what Guthrie does is more of a line to my ears:
You can hear a number of musical devices at work, lots of little turns in the contour, bits of chromaticism, a variety of melodic cells. At the end he launches into a more straight-forward patterned thing. When you slow down a jazz line you'll hear it as a nuanced melody, not a pattern. Nothing wrong with patterns, but nowadays it can bore me if there is too much of it. Someone spinning out inventive melodies never gets old.
Note Choice
These guys are screwing around with the entire scale to play melodies instead of focusing on the pentatonic. Examples 4-5 in this video show Guthrie doing just this:
Note how he really leans into the 2 and the 6. That slide he does into the 6 3:00 minutes is kind've a classic jazzy sounding melodic things you hear these guys do a lot. Once I started doing that little 6, b7 1 slide into 6 or 2 b3 4 slide into 2 move, I was kind've amazed at how it starts to open that sound up. Experiment playing over a static minor 7th chord or something and try emphasizing the 2, 4 and 6.
This connects with the last point. In jazz every melodic figure is free game. Not that this isn't true in other genres, but in jazz it is the norm to aim for complete melodic freedom. For instance in a fast jazz line you could hear a one octave arp connected to a scalar fragment, to a little chromatic thing with some fourths thrown in at the end. In a lot of rock/shred type playing arps are treated almost like a musical trickos). Of course you'll hear them in slower melodies, but not as freely as you might in jazz. You can also hear that these players freely add chromatic passing tones in a lot of their licks. Incorporating arps and chromatic passing tones into your melodies at all tempos will really start opening things up for you.
Beyond that, these players are also willing to implement dissonance into their playing. That is a whole other ball game. I don't think this is the first thing you need to implement if you are going for that sound, but it will open up a whole other world.
You can generally just tell these guys play with greater melodic freedom than someone like Paul Gilbert (not knocking him, he is a great player). When he is playing slower stuff Paul tends to play more with a bluesy approach with that 'epic rock' vibe. Guthrie is exploring all sorts of sounds and rhythms when he is improvising at slower tempos. He has proved numerous times that he doesn't need to shred to be interesting (I believe I once heard him say that he more or less does the shred thing to pay the bills).
'Wonderful Slippery Thing' is a great example of Govan's jazz influences at play in his melodic choices. He is playing lots of 8th note melodies with all sorts of stuff going on.
Screwing around with Dorian in general is a great way to get started with a jazzier sound.
Harmony
The music these players write primarily makes use of extended harmony from what I can hear. Just writing progressions based on 7, Maj7 and Min7 chords will start opening this sound up. Start adding some extensions when you feel comfortable.
Phrasing
Guthrie doesn't always phrase in the most straight-forward way. I'm not necessarily talking about odd note groupings. You can hear it in examples 4-6 in that last linked video. He'll do short bursts of fast notes, these little staccato things and just tiny stop-start phrases. Experiment with starting your phrases on the upbeat (this is huge for expanding your rhythmic vocabulary no matter what you do) and adding triplets in your melodies. Try improvising in sparse 2 or 3 note bursts and leaving some space. Leaving space is a pretty huge part of it. There is so much more, but these are just some ideas to get you started. Another thing to consider is that eighth note soloing is very common in jazz at all tempos. Try working on creating some 8th streams without resorting to big epic bends.
Playing the changes
They do it. This has already been discussed at length, but I'll just say, one of the biggest things you can do to start is to simply work on targeting chord tones.
Some Recommendations
Tom Quayle - A great player in this tradition, more of a Holdsworthian outside jazzy vibe going on. There is a video of him playing over Coltrane's Countdown. He has done his homework. Check it out:
David Wallimann - David has a ton of lessons in this style, lots of lick videos, theory stuff, all that. He tends to be more melodic and less 'shreddy'. Watching a few of his videos and dissecting the licks can teach you a few things about some of the stuff commonly associated with this type of sound. It helped me out. Here is a good example:
Some Thoughts on Chord Scale Theory
There is nothing inherently wrong with chord scale theory, it is plenty useful, but I don't think it is always the best place to start. In Bert Ligon's jazz theory book the criticism he leverages at it is that it isn't in line with what you might be hearing a progression actually do. For example D-7/G7/CMaj7 doesn't actually sound like D Dorian, G Mixolydian to C Major. It sounds like a chord progression in C Major.
What really makes the changes pop out is targeting the chord tones, especially on rhythmically strong beats like 1 and 3 (Forward Motion by Hal Galper really gets into this). This can happen with chord scale of course, but if all you tell someone is to 'play D Dorian, G Mixolydian and C Major', it might take them longer to get to the point where they really sound like they are playing the changes. If you just play C Major over the progression technically, yes, you are playing D Dorian and G Mixolydian, but that might be too much information to work with when you are starting out. Definitely made things a little overwhelming for me.
Use both approaches. Chord scale theory is especially useful when you want to start switching things up, playing Lydian Dominant or Altered Dominant over a dominant 7th etc.
Of course all the advice from the previous posters is great, especially if you want to get into more straight-ahead jazz. I was trying to give you some info that would help you get your feet wet with this sound, maybe help you understand where the fusion part is coming from. Good luck!Last edited by Tony_C; 10-27-2014 at 05:36 PM. Reason: Formatting
Reply With Quote
Moffa Mithra
Today, 08:31 AM in For Sale