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So lets pretend the OP was real, he or she would be looking for... I'm coping from one of my earlier posts...
"Or as the secret OP was searching for... ways to use jazz relationships and their organization.... to influence his already developed Rock playing."
That pretty much cuts right to what we should be talking about... what are or what define what playing in a jazz style is.
I was using "relationships and their organization", I've elaborated and explained what that means a few times.
Lets skip the who can play BS, you can play or you can't or your somewhere in between, who cares. We all seem to care about playing in general, that's enough for me. We're lucky to just be able to play jazz.
How about some opinions of what playing in a jazz style could be, more in the direction of what are those relationships and the organization of.
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10-03-2014 10:16 AM
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I think the big things would be...
Originally Posted by Reg
1. Chromaticism/enclosures
2. Modal interchange
3. Upper extensions
4. and of course, chord changes--playing changes.
That could be applied to any style...
5. edit...the concept of "inside" and "outside" is always out there...but usually when that topic comes up folks just like to play cool and say "well, I don't hear anything as outside..."Last edited by mr. beaumont; 10-03-2014 at 10:39 AM.
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Great stuff, Reg. Can I ask how you approach minor and where you pull from since the minor is already more altered to start? Something I was looking at yesterday "I'm a Fool to Want You": Originally Posted by Reg
E-7 / | / E7b9 |A-7 / |F#-7b5 B7b9 |
E-7 / | A-7 / |C9 / | B7 B7b9 :||
Long time on one chord for a lot of it. So, since it's already minor, am I right in thinking that the B7 altered (C melodic minor?) is more of a starting point than somewhere you'd be pulling from with modal interchange? Where are some "next places" that you go?
Thanks for the input.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 10-03-2014 at 06:45 PM.
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Reg is better to answer this, but there's a couple of moves there that can warrant melodic minor or harmonic minor...
Probably the first thing I'd assess is "movements," rather than a chord by chord basis.
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Yeah, the chord by chord stuff makes my eyes roll back in my head, but I'm a bad student I guess. I'm really liking pulling from subs. In major you've got all the minor stuff to immediately pull from. With the minor, I'm just more ignorant. I'm somewhat down with an altered V chord and some CESH, but I don't have any other tricks up my sleeve with the minor. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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I'm a wannabe jazzer, and determining the most appropriate scale to use beyond Major or relative minor is my biggest difficulty, aside from the actual playing, of course.
Fortunately, my ears and sense of rhythm are pretty good, so I am able to focus on the melody while improvising, and simply use the appropriate notes at the appropriate time to coincide with the changes. I would love to have a better understanding of which scale to use and at what time, which is what I am trying to work on now. I have been playing by ear for so long that it is a hard habit to break, but still a good skill to have as many have no ear or sense of rhythm.
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The chord by chord thing is for the practice room really...you practice making every change so you can hear that kind of stuff logically and melodically.
There's certain tunes/styles, and even tempos, where it's not really logical at.
For anybody who considers themselves a "wannabe jazzer" (shit, I am too, most days) I say put the scales away until you can rock through a progression using just the info the chords give you...but that's just me, and it certainly doesn't lead to any quick gratification.
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Makes sense to me. Afterall, if one has chord tones down and has a good ear the scale name shouldn't matter much.
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Yeah...It's kinda like when people say "what scale can I play over such and such chord?" and I think, well, what notes are IN the chord? What extensions sound cool? Cuz that tells a lot...
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Can anyone explain what the piano player (Tyner?) is playing? Way advanced, obviously. Originally Posted by pkirk
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OK... Eb-maj9, D-maj9 then either Db -maj9 or the altered V7 chord, Bb7altered lead line F,E.Eb
I only listened to the first couple of seconds... yea min 2nds.
So thanks Mr B...cool
-chromaticism and enclosures, could be almost any notes. First lets give a reference... a tune, the melody and changes, the changes could just be chord tones or with a quick analysis... you would have complete note collections, either would work as reference, your 3rd point extensions would reflect your analysis.
Anyway, the relationships you create with the chromatic and enclosure notes generally would have organization. Say you use approach notes or chords from 1/2 step below. That could be the relationship and the organization of those approach chromatic notes or chords could help define that relationship and it's development. What chords you approach with or what chords are implied by the single chromatic approach notes. Harmonic relationships generally imply something... type of function, dominant, sub-dominant... or reinforce the target etc.. so this opens the door to use of Modal Interchange, which could also be organized... to get access to MM , Blue Notes or even help create different types of harmonic movement... implying different modal tonal functions. Different chord patterns to imply Function. I'm pushing the limits a bit there are different tonal systems, three or four tonic systems, use of characteristic modal notes to influence harmonic chordal movement... OK lets skip this BS.
So the extensions, reference would be the chord tones the relationship could be the extensions and how you derived them could be the organization behind the development. Generally most jazz players already have the extensions defined from jazz common practice. We've played millions of standards and already made the analysis of what are the typical and not so typical choices of extensions. And even more important we know what the extensions imply harmonically. Basically giving plug and play choices of how we might perform the tune, what relationships and developments could happen.
Which leads me to the changes... yea each chord can be a harmonic tonal world in it's self, which generally results in use of Chord patterns which define or reinforce that tonal world. The organization of those Tonal worlds generally is derived from the original reference... The Tune. The relationships we choose to use or create with reference to that Tune and how we might develop those relationships.
So sounds like way to much BS... but it's not that complicated when you try and understand the concepts of playing as well as ......just play what you feel or have memorized... or one lick, trick you learned from transcribing or a teacher showed you. You'll have many more options of what you can play. Of course there still are those technical skills.
Matt..
Maybe ,
ll: E-7 /A-11B7b13 l E-9/ B-11 E7#9 l A-7 D9#11 l F#-7b5 B7alt l
l E-9 / A13 / .......l A-7 / D9#11 / l G-9 C9#11 l B13 sus B7b13 l ( or B7sus b9 B7b13)
Anything can work if set up, I would probably start with.. I'll give complete note collections which imply where from.
E aeolian A dor. B altered l E Aeo B dor E7alt l A dor. D lyd b7 Altered II V of...
E dor. A mix or lyd b7 l A dor D alt l G dor Clydb7 l either of these two choices open MM or pentatonic approaches, even Blue notes.
So The way I improve is with both melodic lines, groove lines and those lines are always implying changes, whether played or not.
So your improve, your melodic lines don't really always need to line up horizontally with the implied changes. Along with those implied changes, my improve lines also reflect different relationships with those implied changes.
Example being I could start using Blue Notes and use Modal interchange or V7 approaches with the changes I spelled out above. Just as I develop the original changes with an organized approach... I could also create new relationships with the new changes to help organize... like I said the source for blue notes. Or as Mr. B mentioned , chromatic notes.
These all become plug and play, or if you play by ear... you just hear the organization. It all works, some just work better than others.
I need to head off ... I'll check in late or tomorrow to try and simplify...
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I think it's wonderful to transition from a rock background into jazz. When I was younger I used to devour solos by Blackmore etc, moved onto Yngwie Malmsteen, and then last year of high school heard Allan and John (the Yorkshire Gentleman's club). one of the advantages a rock player (if you study the music) ought to have is a good command of legato and efficiency in picking as well as control of dynamics
thereafter the bulk of the work depends on how you approach the study. for me, I continued to explore jazz deeper right thru out college (it had a great music school, thought i wasn't a music major) without getting hung up on playing it. so basically before i tackled my first jazz standard, i had spent a good 4-5 years of intensive listening to the idiom from all it's myriad flavors and timeline. my practice through that time would consist of spending an entire evening exploring a single mode or free-form melodic implications of static chord voicings or just practicing against drones.
when i got into a more structured study of the subject itself, a lot of things were laid out in my ear. as far the BIG difference between transitioning from rock to jazz I would say boils down a vertical approach on guitar as opposed to a more horizontal approach. so it's a matter of doing the work and putting the time to come to a personalized understanding of the fretboard. but really the ONLY thing which can cut is, HEARING it. analysis of tunes and studying functional relationships is great, but only if you can HEAR it and then rip it. HEARING music at various speeds with clarity and then executing them with time, that's the stuff (again not constrained by idiom) very challenging (acquisition of good technique and command of touch all that stuff become pre-req)
also, I feel what most people don't seem to talk about is the ability to conceive melodic lines or harmonic motions (forget about idiomatic constraints). thankfully when I was a kid i studied classical piano for a while sucked as a player, but thankfully there were soem great melodies to learn and my teacher focused a lot on identifying simple harmony. my dad gave me a stan getz casette when I was like 11 or some shit. Sorted me right out. also Indian classical music (Im from calcutta) big upps
just relating my personal experience incase the OP is still around (as i myself have come into the idiom from a rock background). great points by reg, henry and others as well. basically it's a labor of love, not sure how people get so hung up on all this other crap. my reading still sucks ballz, I live with it, hope to get better at it though it's unlikely
Last edited by AleikhBaba; 10-04-2014 at 05:33 AM.
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This thread has gotten long so excuse me if this has already been mentioned. How about rock guitarists that already use a chord tone approach. The first that comes my mind is Jerry Garcia. Also his phrasing / groove is something to also learn from.
If the Op is trying to get more of a jazz influence into his rock playing that may be a good place to look.
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Firstly, playing through the changes is NOT simply finding a scale that works over a lot of chords. Try that with "All the Things You Are" or "Autumn Leaves" and you'll be heading for a mess in short order. To me, playing through the changes isn't just a mechanical exercise where you learn and play the "right" modal scales and arpeggios in rigid order. It's about hearing and anticipating upcoming changes as music, so that you can lead your improvisation lines in ways that flow from one chord to the next.
In my personal experience, I have spent NO time learning jazz licks or specific solos. This is a little unorthodox, but I have learned to create my own style (which is very melodic) by focusing on fundamentals and learning from both a theoretical and practical perspective how to use my ears to HEAR these elements of jazz as they come. I have not ignored the greats and certainly listen to them. However, by not transcribing and learning note-for-note solos and licks, I have ended up "creating" my own style from the ground up. Early in the process of doing this, someone commented that I sounded a little like Charlie Christian, which makes sense because he himself innovated many foundational concepts of jazz guitar and jazz music in general. These days, I don't know WHO I sound like except me, but that's okay.
Another important part of my learning, which I started BEFORE digging into soloing was to focus on comping first. Getting fundamental jazz chord shapes and changes for playing songs (in particular jazz standards) under my belt was critical to understanding and hearing the changes that I would eventually solo over.
I was/am a rock and progressive guitarist, and now I am also a gigging jazz guitarist with skills and an approach built over the course of the past few years. But that experience has also improved my rock playing enormously. When applying jazz concepts such as "playing through changes" to rock, it's another level entirely.
For a rock player, I cannot recommend studying jazz enough.
as a disclaimer, I do NOT necessarily recommend ignoring transcription of,the greats. My own personal path was unusual and most would probably make more rapid progress through transcription and deep listening/emulation.
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eightstring - we were very similar. I also didn't copy licks or solos specifically because I thought it would help me develop my own style more.
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Sounds like great transition, and yea, for many the goal is for your style of playing, your voice to be recognizable. And hopefully as you.
I don't believe any one approaching playing in a jazz style is looking for one collection of notes to get through a tune or even a section of a tune. Be it a scale , arpeggio or any organization of the note collection. General the terms, Scale or as guitar players like to say a Mode or starting on different degrees of scale, or a type of arpeggio, any pattern which we tend to give names is really just for reference, a term to verbally or through analysis discuss relationships at any given point or periods of time in any give tune or composition. Which generally leads to better solos and maybe even expanding what our ears are capable of hearing. Maybe understanding what someone else might be playing.
The terms are not designed for a method of organized usage...play scales, or arpeggios, pentatonic, again there to have a verbal method of explaining what you choose to play at any given moment or situation. Generally musicians begin to use the terms as a style or method of performance from lack of understandings or awareness.
Personally I like terms that break down melodic usage styles or as I tend to use modal terms to imply complete note collections... they also imply standard analysis which reflect how I may choose to play through tunes.
They imply and make much more understandable what and why I choose specific notes beyond the basic chord tones and melody. The more one becomes aware of how music, on this forum, Jazz works... the more one is able to understand what the terms may imply. Or I can just say... chord tones, random blue notes, some random approach or passing tones or any of the non descriptive embellishment terms... so often used.
I liked AleikhBaba's post, his reference to having to become aware of the vertical aspects of tunes is critical if one truly wants to play jazz. And yes hearing is not a choice just as are many other skills, depending on what level one want to be able to perform Jazz.
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Original Poster chiming back in here. Thanks for everyone's responses--even if the thread went in all sorts of directions about the meaning of jazz performance, authenticity of jazz players, scare me away from playing jazz, etc. I guess if you ask twenty of students how they learn something, you get thirty different approaches back. And then several to say that others aren't doing it right.
As a student of the guitar for over 10 years, I accepted long ago that it is a lifetime journey. My goal is to improve my current playing, and I want to be able to apply jazz harmony & phrasing to my playing like some of my favorite guitarists. Sure I may never devote 100% of my playing time to playing 'true jazz' and there's a chance I'll always consider myself a rock guy. Though maybe not? Either way, learning jazz guitar is an adventure I'm interested in pursuing, and I admit humility and being over my head in the road of jazzdom. I hope that this can be a place where people can share information and learn, without pretension. We're all passionate guitarists, and that's why we're all here, I hope.
I'm glad to see the thread has turned around recently and several have offered their experience and direction on what worked for them. I'll admit that I'm still am not comforted with what method/approach/syllabus will make sense for me to follow. If others are willing, I think it would be cool for others to share their timeline & significant milestones of learning jazz. What they accomplished, when that was, and how they did it.
Long-term, I acknowledge that taking frequent lessons is probably the best approach I can take, and I'm hoping my schedule frees up in the spring to be able to devote more time to playing guitar and working with a teacher.
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ok I think I get what you are after ....
the one single thing that unlocked the box for me was this , given to me by Dave Cliff ages ago
in G
|Amin7 D7|G7 |C | ./. |
in quavers
5th posn .....
|(up the Amin7 arp) A C E G down the D7 scale F# E D C|
| (land on)B (the third of G)| ./. |
then practice it in all keys round the cycle
ie Gmin7 C7 F next etc etc
very simple , but it was a revelation to
me ! and it unlocked the whole thing ie
its a melodic line that outlines the harmony
less really IS more ....
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A milestone for lots of folks is when the logic of the tritone starts becoming clear in function with the 3/b7 and R/b5. Introduces a huge tritone sub vocab for comping and soloing and is as authentically jazzy sounding as you can get.
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Stevehollx - it all depends on how you want to play. To say you want to add jazz to you vocabulary is a bit of a generality. And that might explain some of the train wrecks in this thread. And of course the better you get at it the more detail you will achieve. There are many ways of playing jazz. Some solos are kind of vague and modal and others precisely hit the chord tones and both run a gamut of styles. One takes longer to achieve than the other.
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Advice from one of the great Jazz-Rock drummers.
Lenny White: Jazz Prepared Me to Play All kinds of Music | iRock Jazz
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I am an art teacher. For me this thread has been rather depressing. As a teacher one thing you don't do is emphasise initially how difficult it is to master this subject. After all it is a language that will never be totally mastered. I am a painter and I will never know enough. I am not a great guitar player, however the parallel is relevant. Learning is a lifelong task. Most players/artists are acutely aware of their limitations. There was certainly a great deal of condescension from a couple of the initial responders. Responses from people who should know better, who are exercising their own issues and are quite frankly missing the point.
Someone who wants to learn a bit more about jazz/art is a good thing. Giving that person the third degree will not be productive. My experience in the classroom is that engaging the student is the most important thing. The more problems that are solved the more confident the student becomes until eventually the student accepts responsibility for his/her own learning. Students do become obsessed with learning and really are prepared to give of their own time. Why? Because they are encouraged and made to feel that their efforts mean something. Who gives a damn that most people don't become a star practitioner. Is that really the only criteria? For me it is the personal journey. The problem with teaching is that whilst I know quite a lot about painting I can't impose my knowledge upon the student, without the danger of imprinting my own ideas upon an impressionable mind. By and large a student has to discover certain lessons for themselves and be able to make their own decisions within a structured framework. Skills are difficult enough to learn, but understanding how to apply them or even when to ignore them is more difficult still.
I have listened to jazz my whole adult life, right from the time I walked into a talk on Miles Davis's "Bitches Brew" at Art School and was mesmerised. I did not know what I was hearing, but I knew it had changed my life. We don't have to understand something to know it's value. If jazz is to grow we need to encourage people to participate, not blind them with science. Well at least not initially.
All I am seeing here is a number of respondents who are point scoring. I really though this forum was better than that. Unrealistic aren't I?Last edited by silhouette; 10-12-2014 at 07:41 PM.
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silhouette: Thank you for sharing your seasoned teacher's perspective, and providing a classy and poignant response. As a group, let's motivate and figure out ways to teach the craft instead of being pretentious about how hard the craft is to learn. We get it that jazz is challenging, and yet we are here nonetheless to learn.
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Great... everything is beautiful.
So does the educational system we're talking about produce. And in this case... jazz guitarist.
So steve What don't you get... about whatever you believe playing in a jazz style is. What would help you develop or understand those magical skills.
There have been a few very physical examples of musical skills that jazz employs. Anything look interesting?
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Forgive me, I thought you were another one of those rock hacks asking for a shortcut to jazz fusion shredding.... Originally Posted by stevehollx
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