Experienced rock guitarist needs some direction playing jazz

[henryrobinett]

Targuit - I'm not going to quote your post. Anyone can easily reference it. I am a composer. Being a composer is an extension of my musicianship. I didn't really learn my musicianship by using Sibelius. And I have known Many many classical musicians who couldn't hope to play jazz. And vice versa. The two are only vaguely related. Bach's harmonies are very, very different from Monks. The use of dominant 7ths and 9th, 13, +11 etc is far different. Because you can do Kobe does not mean you can do the other. In fact I have rarely found a classical musician who could play jazz. And the reverse, though it's more common to find jazz musicians who play classical simply because so many started out being trained in classical music.

And I said guitarists out there ARE NOT as sophisticated as those found on this forum.

[targuit]

Wha?

What part of that sentence don't you get, DJ?

[djangoles]

What part of that sentence don't you get, DJ?

The part about Sibelius being a prerequisite for playing or composing music....
and that it somehow makes "the step to the bandstand is not too difficult."....

You really believe this?

[targuit]

Henry, I respect your work and your music, but you are prone to make some very broad generalizations about jazz and classical musicians or, as in my case, classically trained musicians who play jazz, that are unfounded. I have no doubt that you did not learn your instrument or how to compose with the assistance of Sibelius, if only because you and I are likely of the generation who learned their craft and classical training long before Sibelius or Finale existed.

This thread broadly is about a rock guitarist inquiring about how he can incorporate jazz styling into his music. I made various suggestions as to what would prepare a musician of unknown level of development to play jazz. I suggested that he learn diatonic major and minor scales and how to harmonize them within a chordal context and positional awareness on the fret board. That he learn specific songs and consider using a notation software program to create midi tracks for the purpose of rehearsal and to learn to read standard notation, assuming he may not yet have that skill.

Others have suggested he bury himself in various jazz guitar methodologies, some of which are quite good. I do not disagree. But where I do disagree is this notion that jazz and jazz guitar are some esoteric, exotic form of harmonization that only the anointed will be permitted to taste. Granted, every one is at their own level of development in terms of fluency playing jazz or other styles of music. But where I disagree is with the notion that classically trained guitarists cannot read music nor play jazz well - why? Because they are classically trained.

Like Oscar Peterson, Keith Jarrett, Chick Correa, Charlie Byrd, Gene Bertoncini, Ralph Towner and countless other guitarists, horn players, pianists.....

In addition, most of the standard repertoire up to and even beyond Bop is NOT written in an abstruse and incomprehensible harmonic or melodic framework. Not even modal for that matter until post Miles Davis. And guess what? Most Coltrane and Miles Davis compositions are easily playable by a competently trained guitarist.

I am not saying that everyone can fit on the head of the pin of commercial success. But to suggest that the use of extensions including 7ths, 9ths, 11ths, and 13ths is radically different from Litzst or Chopin or certainly the Impressionist era of classical music composition is quite a stretch. And I play lots of Coltrane inspired melodic lines to several beautiful ballads off his work with Johnny Hartmann for example, an album of mainly ballads that to this day is one of my favorite. No sweat. I admit I have not tackled Love Supreme since I got the album back in the Seventies at some point. But I have not listened to it for a long time.

To suggest that one can play jazz music is not to denigrate the difficulty of playing well. But I'm sure there are plenty of very fine musicians on this forum, classically trained or not, who play jazz. Simple as that.

Jay

[targuit]

DJ - what I said was the following:

"And if you can compose and create jazz music on Sibelius, the step to the bandstand is not too difficult. The proof of musicianship is the music - does it sound like jazz and do people appreciate what you play. If you cannot write music with Sibelius that sounds like the real deal, you likely cannot play it either. The act of writing your own music or creating your own transcriptions is an act of musical creation. It does not happen by chance." - Jay

My comment was within the context of the useful of mastering notation software for one's musical development. I do not know how long you have played, whether you read music, whether you are the next Joe Pass or Henry Mancini. But I know this. If you can create a good transcript of a Jimmy Van Heusen song, play it competently, write the music out using notation software.... and the result sounds like jazz - then guess what? You likely could play onstage, if you have the ears and the technique to hang. It is hard to become a competent jazz musician or classical musician. It's hard to become a brain surgeon. But there are hordes of them in the world today.

What level of musicianship are you at these days?

[djangoles]

I've been playing long enough (multiple instruments)....

Yes I read music....

If given the choice I would rather be Henry Mancini, but am neither.

My level of musicianship these days is exactly where it always has been....Not good enough and always striving to get better


Still not sure what notation software has to do with anything....(I guess I just prefer to write out by hand with a pencil.)

[gnatola]

"Playing outside" basics - this guy is a great, no BS player who hangs out here:

Bringing it back "inside" will, ultimately, depend on your own instinct as a player, IMO.

Playing a simple 12-bar Blues without bends and wails, as well-said above, is a great place to start. Play clean, slap on some heavy-ish strings - flatwounds even. Go crazy!

Jazz isn't a religious order; take from it as much as you need to "convince" yourself. That may take a whole lifetime - who knows? I think allusions to excellence need to be accompanied by a link to one's own playing: "This is what I mean".

I wish I could play a tenth as well as Zucker. Are the really good players hearing the outside lines? Or, do they just know what devices will take them out?

[henryrobinett]

Sorry but targuit I can't read anything you say any more. You have promised to post your playing and you've yet to do it. I just think you're full of hot air. So much of what you say just makes no sense. See later.

[gnatola]

pay attention to the movements of the 3rds and 7ths in the progression

One of many "rules" of playing over changes. But, doesn't following those rules risk unimaginative, rote playing?

[pkirk]

One of many "rules" of playing over changes. But, doesn't following those rules risk unimaginative, rote playing?

At that point in the thread, I was trying to address the OP's question. Playing 3rds and 7ths is probably the definition of what it mean to play changes.

[henryrobinett]

At that point in the thread, I was trying to address the OP's question. Playing 3rds and 7ths is probably the definition of what it mean to play changes.

Yes. I don't think it leads to unimaginative rote playing. But I suppose it might. I guess my playing is mostly unimaginatively rote. But I dig it.

[targuit]

You will see, Henry. I do have a busy 'day' job - physician. But I get so tired of this "hot air" business about posting a song.

Tell you what - I'm working on a couple of tunes lately.

But Beautiful, Here's That Rainy Day, Alfie, My Foolish Heart, What Are You Doing For The Rest Of Your Life, You Don't Know What Love Is, The Way You Look Tonight, Two For The Road (learned it last night), My Romance, Cry Me A River, The Shadow Of Your Smile, All The Things You Are, It's Impossible, Estate .....

You pick one or two, and then we both post a video of us playing solo, allowing that I will be singing as well if you agree. Then we will let the forum judge the quality of the playing. Or are those songs not ones you play solo? Maybe two instrumental tracks. You can play to a click track hi-hat, but no full percussion. Gotta be able to hear the details and the timing, like Chet Baker used to say. What do you think? You up for that? I post when you post. Kinda like Wiz's Song of the Month. (He does a great job, btw.) I cannot record until Saturday and Sunday this weekend.

On the other hand, don't blame me for calling you on this one. You are the master musician. For me it's a "hobby" - let's let the forum be the judge. In fact I'd like to hear Reg submit a ballad or two. This is not a hostile thing - it is to bring clarity to this serious misconception that you bring to this issue. And by the way, I do not have real good video equipment, but I will record the videos while recording live directly into my digital recorder for the sound quality, which is pretty good. I know you're good. But I don't believe I have heard you play solo like Joe Pass....but you seem to have allowed your Ego too much rein and you are too loose with your critiques and broadsides. I would add that this is not some angry challenge, but more in the lines of a friendly sharing of arrangements. After all, the music is where the rubber meets the road.

Jay

[gnatola]

At that point in the thread, I was trying to address the OP's question. Playing 3rds and 7ths is probably the definition of what it mean to play changes.

Agreed. But, it's more than that. One has to create interesting melodies. I think we focus too much on scales, arpeggios, CST, etc. I've read Mr. Beaumont's advice many times on this forum. Learn tunes. Learn the inner workings of a tune. Figure out why it works the way it does. Play the melody. Embellish the melody. And so on. If one practices nothing but scales and arpeggios, one will get good at playing scales and arpeggios. Play tunes.

i should take my own advice...

[gnatola]

Yes. I don't think it leads to unimaginative rote playing. But I suppose it might. I guess my playing is mostly unimaginatively rote. But I dig it.

Henry,

I have seen/heard your playing on this forum. Your playing is neither unimaginative nor rote. I dig it, too.

[pkirk]

Agreed. But, it's more than that. One has to create interesting melodies. I think we focus too much on scales, arpeggios, CST, etc. I've read Mr. Beaumont's advice many times on this forum. Learn tunes. Learn the inner workings of a tune. Figure out why it works the way it does. Play the melody. Embellish the melody. And so on. If one practices nothing but scales and arpeggios, one will get good at playing scales and arpeggios. Play tunes.

i should take my own advice...

Read some other posts I've written in this forum, and maybe check out my clips. They are probably unimaginative and rote, as I rarely get feedback, but I have a few moments I'm proud of. And you'll see that I'm less of a fan of CST than other methods, namely studying the music itself.


Again, the OP is a rock guy who wants to play changes. He doesn't say play jazz, and he says he can play lots of scales. In my view telling him to focus on 3rds and 7ths is probably the closest thing to a 1 sentence answer to his question that I can think of.

[gnatola]

Read some other posts I've written in this forum, and maybe check out my clips. They are probably unimaginative and rote, as I rarely get feedback, but I have a few moments I'm proud of. And you'll see that I'm less of a fan of CST than other methods, namely studying the music itself.


Again, the OP is a rock guy who wants to play changes. He doesn't say play jazz, and he says he can play lots of scales. In my view telling him to focus on 3rds and 7ths is probably the closest thing to a 1 sentence answer to his question that I can think of.

Pkirk, where can I find your clips?

[Vladan]

IMO, this is one of the better threads in recent history of the forum.

Now, I can't read music, at least not in real time, but what Targuit said has some logic to it, coukd be a good excersize ...

If, while recording it all with some notation software, you can read a chart and play your MIDI instrument in real time and such way, so the produced written notation can insztantly, without refining (except for the technical shortcomings of the MIDI instrument) be interpreted as intended by previously unaware reader, like some other MIDI software, or trained musician, chances are you could be able to play charts on the band stand.

Also, just like Henry, I would like to hear Targuit play.

While mentioning Henry, must say, "Classic musicians can't do Jazz as good as Jazzers can do Classical", or variations, holds no logic, because once any of them can do both, he is both.
Further explanation he(?) gave, Jazzers can do it because first they were Classics, is actually kind of ".... circular motion .... rub it!" (Nanook Rubs it, by F. Zappa) logic as well as it is tautology and contradiction ... since It reads as

"Classical musicians can't do Jazz as good as classical musicians [(who also play/ have switched to Jazz) (can play classical)]"
depending if and where you put the brackets.

Of course I think I understood the original meaning and Henry's intentions. This was just for fun.

[henryrobinett]

Henry,

I have seen/heard your playing on this forum. Your playing is neither unimaginative nor rote. I dig it, too.

Thank you very much! Now I'm going back to tending a sick dog.

[henryrobinett]

Well the primary issue is timing. Jazz pianists and horn players mostly started out doing the classics. I played with a young pianist phenom in NJ last year who just graduated college and didn't get into jazz until his late teens. And he plays his butt off. But to have a classical musician, a mature serious one who plays in orchestras for a living to then transition to jazz - well I've rarely heard it done convincingly because the time is just too straight. And getting them to play ii-V turn backs and blues and not sound stiff is asking a lot. Not impossible.

A friend of mine who passed away a few months ago, Kenny Drew Jr, said how upset he was at a review of a concert he did playing classical music, some solo piano piece and then accompanying and opera singer, that the reviewer was surprised at his convincing interpretation. Kenny said, "Hell, how do you think I started? I've always played this music!"

[Jehu]

Tell you what - I'm working on a couple of tunes lately.

But Beautiful, Here's That Rainy Day, Alfie, My Foolish Heart, What Are You Doing For The Rest Of Your Life, You Don't Know What Love Is, The Way You Look Tonight, Two For The Road (learned it last night), My Romance, Cry Me A River, The Shadow Of Your Smile, All The Things You Are, It's Impossible, Estate .....

We've done a few of these over in the practical standards threads -- why don't you join us over there and contribute? A number of us also have busy day jobs, and I know that at least two of us manage to pull something together most months without shoving our PhDs up anyone's nose. Usually.

[Reg]

Wow... lots of debate or dialect. There is no OP, He or she has been on the forum One time, the first BS post.

So yes working with 3rds and 7th imply basic 7th chords. They are great for background lines etc... But basically their heard whether you play them or not. At worst... if you cover them one time, basically like just spelling changes, with arpeggios or how ever you choose to use the notes, after one time through... 3rds and 7ths are implied. That would be the first step... your creating a reference, the reference is the basic 7th chords. That would be the vanilla, the black and white version, the Major/ minor functional harmony version. Put the house to sleep version. I'm not saying bad, but at some point your going to get it, your going to hear that version... and get bored and realize that maybe there's more, more flavors, more colors... some might even say there is the possibilities of different jazz versions of those changes, maybe even a few.

What is more in a jazz style... is what relationships you create with those changes or the notes, in this case the 3rds and 7ths. Then how you develop those relationships.

What are the rest of the notes your using....over, under, around or through... the changes. And what is the organization of the usage of those notes. If it's just your ears from trial and error... great that is a form of organization of how your deriving and using those notes. Might be difficult to discuss... but who cares. How you feel works to some degree.

The more you teach your ears of what there are possibilities of, in this case ...creating different relationships with the basic reference changes, the more option you'll have of playing in a jazz style. Or as the secret OP was searching for... ways to use jazz relationships and their organization.... to influence his already developed Rock playing.

fleaaaa... I'm trying to help... by giving you honest information and advice. Where did or do you get the information you've used to develop you opinions. How may pros have you had conversations with, even if it's on the internet, and for free. I'm very easy to have discussions with... I listen or read...

I've hosted jazz jams for years, and I don't host them to work on my playing. Generally they're to give inexperienced jazz players the chance to perform live on stage with professional jazz musicians... basically perform with a safety net... no crash and burns.

So the simplest or first relationship to create... is just add a V chord to the notated chord, example

G7 going to a C7. Standard I7 IV7. Make them G13 going to C13... complete chords.

So by creating a relationship with each chord by thinking of each chord as a tonal target in it's self. You have access to and an organized usage of notes that are not implied by the 3rd and 7ths.

So just approaching each chord with a V7 is pretty boring. The only real change is the D7 or V7 of G13. But if you now use the sub V of each new approach V7...

/G13... Db13#11 / C13... Ab13#11 / now your starting to have some possibilities of development, Now tri-tone sub each approach chord with its sub... Db13#11 sub could be G7#9 b13 or an altered V7 chord and the same with Ab13#11

Now you have... ll: G13...G7#9b13 / C13... D7#9 :ll

So now we have access to Melodic Minor, and Blue Notes... we're created a jazz blues version of the tune "Willow Weep For Me", at least the "A" section groove.

And if you were just soloing or comping through that tune you could use that relationship and develop some interesting and definitly cool feels, soloing or comping. The bass could go with you or stay straight... would work either way.

This is a very basic approach to playing tunes, and there are many more options or different relationships using the V7 approach and more levels or extensions which could imply different notes to use and the organization of using those notes or relationships... Now add the related II- chord... and other chord patterns. This is almost like playing Diatonic with reference to playing Jazz. The 1st step beyond Vanilla... very old school, but still has many possibilities.

Hey Jehu... I basically started that thread, but have stayed away so maybe more would get involved.

[pkirk]

Pkirk, where can I find your clips?

hey gnatola, that was a bit snarky on my part, sorry.

anyway

here:

SoundClick artist: Paul Kirk - page with MP3 music downloads

fibrationboy - YouTube

here's a studio recoding with a band that kicked my a** from a few year ago

Watercourse Records: (x)tet

if you like out stuff, check out the stuff I've done with trumpeter Kyle Quass. if you like inside stuff, the practical thread stuff in this forum is where I post things, and I invite you to participate there, its a great thread. I'm no Jack Zucker or henryrobinett, that's for sure.

[snoskier63]

You will see, Henry. I do have a busy 'day' job - physician. But I get so tired of this "hot air" business about posting a song.

Tell you what - I'm working on a couple of tunes lately.

But Beautiful, Here's That Rainy Day, Alfie, My Foolish Heart, What Are You Doing For The Rest Of Your Life, You Don't Know What Love Is, The Way You Look Tonight, Two For The Road (learned it last night), My Romance, Cry Me A River, The Shadow Of Your Smile, All The Things You Are, It's Impossible, Estate .....

You pick one or two, and then we both post a video of us playing solo, allowing that I will be singing as well if you agree. Then we will let the forum judge the quality of the playing. Or are those songs not ones you play solo? Maybe two instrumental tracks. You can play to a click track hi-hat, but no full percussion. Gotta be able to hear the details and the timing, like Chet Baker used to say. What do you think? You up for that? I post when you post. Kinda like Wiz's Song of the Month. (He does a great job, btw.) I cannot record until Saturday and Sunday this weekend.

On the other hand, don't blame me for calling you on this one. You are the master musician. For me it's a "hobby" - let's let the forum be the judge. In fact I'd like to hear Reg submit a ballad or two. This is not a hostile thing - it is to bring clarity to this serious misconception that you bring to this issue. And by the way, I do not have real good video equipment, but I will record the videos while recording live directly into my digital recorder for the sound quality, which is pretty good. I know you're good. But I don't believe I have heard you play solo like Joe Pass....but you seem to have allowed your Ego too much rein and you are too loose with your critiques and broadsides. I would add that this is not some angry challenge, but more in the lines of a friendly sharing of arrangements. After all, the music is where the rubber meets the road.

Jay

Henry is certainly capable of defending himself and his playing, but as a physician Jay, I would hope you understand the importance of observation before coming to any conclusions. Henry has three links in his signature that show his abilities on the guitar, and it requires very little time and effort to explore those links. If I could play half that well my video posts would be clogging up the internet, but perhaps that is why I have a day job, also as a healthcare provider. Fortunately I am good at my day job, as I'm sure you are at yours, but let's hear what you can do. Professional recording equipment is not needed as you can get adequate results with nothing but a desktop or a laptop computer with a built-in microphone.

Hey, where is the OP anyway?

[fep]

Folks like Henry and Reg can just lay down a track right now of a long list of tunes. They just improvise... that's jazz.

There is no working out some pre-arranged fancy piece that may sound like jazz but it's not jazz improvisation. It's more like a classical approach.

Targuit, given that you have been promising to post your playing for a long time... Are you taking more of the prearranged song approach to be played as a solo piece? Nothing wrong with that and it can sound great. It's just not the same thing that Henry and Reg and a lot of others on this forum are doing. If that's the case, I don't think this proposed comparison makes sense. It would be apples and oranges.

[targuit]

Don't worry - playing music is like a game and fun for me. I'm going to do a version of But Beautiful and My Foolish Heart as a kind of cross between Chet Baker and Tony Bennett. I like The Chet Baker Trio version of MFH with Philippe Catherine. For fun and to put something new up on my YT channel. I notice no takers so far on reciprocating by they are probably waiting to see if I will follow through - but I will, as I got annoyed and need a nudge or two to finish the deed. I am a perfectionist at heart, which is not a always a good thing.

Fep - "Folks like Henry and Reg can just lay down a track right now of a long list of tunes. They just improvise... that's jazz."

What do you think I do? Bake it in an oven like a tart? No, I had in mind to record a live track of rhythm guitar plus vocals and then add a lead track to play a bit of improv lead, though the performance is always improvised. I have a bit of a problem with the idea of pure improvisation, given that the melody and harmonic structure are written by the composer. Interpretation might be a better term really. But no, I don't play out structured lead lines note -for- note like a classical piece. I don't have to, which is one reason I like to play jazz. But it's not the first time or an unfamiliar tune.

Because I have a demanding day job and there are few opportunities to play out these days (this wonderful economy), I create transcriptions, which is a fine way to develop one's skills for a number of reasons in response to the thread. I've never counted the total number of song transcriptions I personally make, but it is surely north of sixty or so. I make Sibelius midi files so I can:
- print out music in the form of lead sheets and lyrics to use for recording
- the midi files can be transposed with click or two and I use the tracks to rehearse as with a band, varying the orchestration and tempo (where else you gonna find musicians at four in the morning to rehearse with)
- refine my notation and music writing skills, including rhythms and harmony. For example, I play keyboards as well. I can score for a quartet if I like.
- apart from composing myself, I just love to be creative with this wonderful tool. The benefits are truly synergistic and for me it is pure fun once I learned to use it.

But this has nothing to do with the thread, apart from the fact that I would advise any serious musician to use notation software for the reasons enumerated above. When it comes right down to it, I don't really have a prescription for a rock guitarist to master jazz styles other than to find the kind of performances you like and try to imitate them. Or as the saying goes, "imitate, assimilate, create (or innovate)". How you get where you want to go depends on where your skills are.

Enough about my pique with those who accuse others of "hot air" - conversations should be about the merits of the argument. But once you hear my recordings, you will know that I know what I'm talking about. Of course, anyone has a right to disagree. Used to be a free country....

jay