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I know there are several other players here who like me moved towards jazz after playing straight-ahead, Chicago style traditional blues. It's come up in many other threads, so it occurred to me to start one where players at various stages might discuss issues they've dealt or are dealing with.
So, some issues one encounters when moving from Muddy/Wolf/Elmore/Otis/the 3 Kings/etc. towards Bird/Wes/Sonny/Miles/etc. Several come to mind for me:
-For starters, the obvious: much more sophisticated harmonic progressions, and wider range of keys (all of 'em!) Dealing with each chord as an event instead of just playing around tonal centers for whole solos.
-Technique - faster tempos more common, interval leaps (and string skips) more common, developing solid picking an absolute must vs. slurring/bending lots of notes
-Longer lines. I'm increasingly realizing this is a key issue for me. Hearing/executing/following-through on long runs of eight notes and the like is a challenge having grown accustomed to hearing/playing shorter lines with more space in between.
All the theory stuff I've not really had a hard time getting my brain around. It's really developing more chops and learning all the tunes!
Any thoughts from other blues to jazz converts?
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06-12-2014 10:23 PM
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I wish I could remember the link but there are articles showing basic tradition Blues progression, and little by liitle adding the chords to the basic progression till they end up with a Charlie Parker set of Blues changes. This is good because you can little by little hear new chords setup changes. Also good way to start learning the harmonic theory as related to a form you already know.
So focus on learning to hear those changes because what is added it the key to hearing Jazz changes. The most important part of Jazz is getting the rhythmic feel into your gut, so start listening to Jazz as much as possible, sing the bass lines, sing the cymbal patterns, find a simple solo and learn to sing it. All this to start programming you gut and subconscious to feel Jazz.
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I agree that starting out by working on the jazz-blues changes would be a good transition point for you. You can get as complicated as you like but for starters:
||: I / IV / I / vm7, I7 /
IV / #IVdim / I / iiim7, VI7 /
iim7 / V7 / I, VI7 / iim7, V7 :||
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Thanks guys. I have already been doing much of what you mention. I have listened to jazz for many years, and have worked on and played jazz blues a lot. Exactly as you describe, I have been able to internalize that form quicker than other tune forms. 12 bars are pretty much burned into my brain. I have jammed with other guys who are otherwise around my level of development and have had 'em need a chart for a jazz blues in F (Billie's Bounce, for instance) and I'm thinking, really?
So, yeah, tune forms are definitely part of the transition too. I have at times had some difficulty with ABAC tunes, more so apparently than AABA, and definitely more than blues. But again, for me, it's been more the stuff I mentioned above.
The thing about playing longer lines I think is a combination of hearing the longer line, knowing the fingerboard and technique. I think at times I kind of hit an area of the fingerboard that is not as familiar and sort of "run out of line" or perhaps fail to maintain adequate relaxation to follow through on the line. Stuff I'm working on.
Again, what I'm really curious about is other players with direct experience similar to mine.Last edited by MattC; 06-13-2014 at 05:37 AM.
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I'm with you. I've played blues for a long time and have been trying to work on jazz for a couple of years and it's coming a bit (slowly). I found all of the things you mentioned to be difficult as well. I would add that keeping track of where I am in the tune when improvising is difficult for me without having the music in front of me.
Lately I have been trying to learn more licks/vocabulary. That seems to be helping with my lines. If I play just scales or arpeggios even using other techniques to embellish those, they seemed to come out sounding like scales and arpeggios. But learning licks and embellishing those seems to get to where I want to go a bit faster.
When playing the blues, after a while it gets easy to just close your eyes and wail - thinking about the sounds you want without having to think about how you're going to make those sounds. I'm nowhere near being able to do that playing jazz and probably never will be. Fortunately I don't have to actually play jazz for a living so whether what I am playing only really matters to me and I can progress at a pace that suits me. I wish I had started sooner.
Lastly I would say that I find that there is so much to learn in jazz that it's tempting to try to learn as much as you can not very well rather than get good sounding at what you already know. Right now, other than learning new licks from time to time, I am trying to stop trying to learn new stuff and just try and work with what I already know for a while. I'm actually enjoying that and I think it's helping a bit.
Cheers.
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Yeah, I forgot about that one! Definitely another big factor. Whereas with blues, I definitely found it easier to focus on limited things, with jazz it can be tempting to "learn" a lot of things on a shallow level rather ingraining stuff. Starting to get a little better at that as I realize how much it takes to really, really make something part of you. Sometimes I do what Kenny Werner mentions in Effortless Mastery-I just practice one line for a while and keep creating little variations.
Originally Posted by ColinO
I remember about 2 and 1/2 years ago when I started really working on jazz I spent a couple weeks playing through ii-V lines in an Aebersold book. Dozens of lines, which I worked through 5 or 6 keys/patterns each. I wouldn't say that was useless, but the amount of that stuff that I really internalized was probably nil. There have been times when my practice agenda had 5-10 "items." Now it's often 2 or 3, maybe 4 if I have a lot of time.
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Sorry, couldn't resist re-quoting that little bit. Very Zen. Originally Posted by ColinO
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I think a big difference is that some straight ahead blues players can get a ton of mileage from the penatonic scale and the blues scale. Their entire soloing approach can be based on these scales.
Those scales are just a small part of the large jazz tool box. Addressing chord tones including extensions, alterations and substitutions are tools that really move one from sounding bluesy to sounding jazzy.
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It is also worth looking at Bird's blues changes. They may seem maddeningly complicated but once you come to understand what he is doing, they ain't so tough.
Here is one version:
Fmaj7 / E- A7 / D- Db- / C- B7
Bb7 F- B7 / Bb- Eb 9 / A- Bb 7 / A- D7b9
G- / B- E7 / A- D7b9 / G- C7b9 / >>>>>back to Fmaj7
That may look maddeningly complicated but it is not. Note the chords in boldface type: those are your targets; they're where you're going. The progression works by realizing where you have to be at Point B, then filling in the space between there and Point A with however much "backcycling" and chromatic motion you need. (There are other ways to play this progression.)
Although these are known as "Bird Blues" changes, after Charlie Parker, I think pianist Tommy Flannigan wrote the best Bird Blues head, "Freight Trane."Last edited by MarkRhodes; 06-13-2014 at 09:54 AM.
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I'm in the same boat as you guys. I have one thing to offer: Grant Green.
I took a class where we went through some Wes and Grant Green stuff. For those of us in the class who were less advanced, I think we all felt like Grant really opened stuff up. Go get some transcriptions of Grant Green solos, slow them down with Transcribe, and start playing them note for note, working up to full speed. As a blues guy, you will see a TON of stuff in there that is familiar.
In my opinion, Grant Green is basically a silver plate tutorial for how to use more traditional blues lines in jazz. Even on his latin stuff, he is notably bluesy. That's not to say blues is all Grant can do, far from it, but I find that his solos are easier to separate and digest than most, and the phrasing is more familiar and accessible.
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I think the two main challenges are (1) making the changes and (2) avoiding "flat footed" phrasing.
You learn to make the changes by practicing playing or doing "improv games" over changes. Songs like ATTYA, Confirmation, Rhythm Changes, etc. The phrasing comes from listening to the masters and also from listening to yourself. You will probably end a lot of your phrases on downbeats...which is cool sometimes but if overdone sounds "flat".
There's another thread about whether to go "all in" to jazz if you want to learn it. The popular opinion was that Yes, gotta go all in. It's easy to get back in touch with your blues roots later on.
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I agree that Grant Green is great. I posted this video the other day but it's worth a repeat because it has Grant doing a "simple" bluesy thing ("Iron City") that is no mean feat to emulate. Originally Posted by eccegeorge
There's a tab of this floating around....
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Just to throw something out there....
Do you think it's better for a straight ahead blues player to try for a soft landing by playing a lot of bluesy jazz? Or is it better to stick with non-blues standards for a while. I know for me, when I play along with Grant Green, I often have a hard time not just playing blues stuff that I am familiar with. Maybe it would be better to avoid that and stick with standards for a while? What do you think?
Love Grant Green by the way.
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To respond to some of the comments.
I dig Grant and have been listening to him for at least 15 years, much longer than I've been trying to seriously work on jazz. He is definitely one of the links between the styles.
I have also worked with those "Bird blues" changes. Fun and helpful.
Vinny's point about phrasing is another good one. Definitely a major difference between the approaches. The original point I made about longer vs. shorter lines would be more accurate to also include this point. In other words, playing blues, I became accustomed to shorter lines that resolved on downbeats, whereas jazz typically includes much more variety in terms of length of line and point of resolution.
Good questions. I dunno what's best, but I know what I've been doing for the last couple years. Some of both basically. I have done a lot work on standard repertoire and changes, but try to frequently check back in with various blues. Also depends on the concept or device being applied to the tune/changes. For example, recently I'm been practicing some of Randy Vincent's 3-note walking chord voicing exercises and have worked out my own over a couple choruses of F jazz blues. Meanwhile, I'm also working on the melodies, comping and single note lines for other standard tunes. Originally Posted by ColinO
So maybe when working with a new concept, apply it to blues and/or forms you've already internalized. When working with a concept you know well, apply it to a less familiar form. One thing easier/one thing more difficult.Last edited by MattC; 06-15-2014 at 07:20 PM.
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I remember an event at the Workshop band that I attend where we had a session with Alan Barnes, well-regarded British saxophonist. When i told him, whilst chatting, that I had joined that outfit as a refugee from a Blues-rock band, his response was "Welcome to the Flat Keys!!" We laughed at the time, rather a lot actually. It wasn't until later that I realised how right he was.
Yep, another "white boy blues" player here. The Beatles made me want to play music but Peter Green made me want to play guitar.
(Oh and Joe Pass made me want to play jazz as well).
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I'm a jazz newbie myself. Like the OP, I come a traditional blues background. Most of my chord progressions followed the basic I-IV-V changes, or something just as simple. Admittedly, my solos came from one of two places. Firstly, I mimicked some of my favorite players the best I could. Secondly, I envisioned patterns, shapes, and boxes on the fretboard that were safe to play within during the course of any given blues tune. Naturally, I'd move those boxes up and down the neck to a corresponding key. It was primitive, but it worked. However, when I decided that I wanted to play jazz I quickly became overwhelmed and discouraged. I still am. I found that I have to know chords, notes, scale degrees, scales, arpeggios, different types of progressions, and so on. For a guy that's used to just asking the key and being able to fly, this all seems so much. Fortunately, a friend suggested something simple to start. He first asked me who some jazz artists to whom that I like to listen. I mentioned a few but we settled on one to get the ball rolling. Charlie Christian. Might as well start at the beginning right? Or near it. His suggestion was to pick a tune of his and learn it. Learn everything. Learn the chords and the solos. Listen to what the other instruments are doing too. Heck, learn those parts too if I could. He told me to quit worrying "why" things are what they are, and that kind of wisdom will reveal itself when I was ready. I can honestly say... this advice has taken a lot of the pressure and frustration out of learning jazz. It's turning out to be a lot of fun too!
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That's great advice. When Charlie stops sounding good to me, I'm ready for the pine box with dirt topping. Being able to play the stuff is the main thing. The theory is easier to grasp when you have lots of songs under your fingers. Originally Posted by dallasblues
By the way, if you have trouble learning some of Charlie's things off of records, you can find good transcriptions online.Last edited by MarkRhodes; 06-17-2014 at 02:49 PM.
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MattC - I come from the same background - played "old school" blues (that's what I like to call it) (professionally for most of the time) for close to 40 years - all the stuff in the styles of Robert Johnson, Fred McDowell etc. to the Chicago masters and the three Kings and most everything in between. Still love that music and enjoy playing it.
Started to try my hand in jazz early last year and didn't get far - took a break to learn to read standard notation to be able to learn tunes from sheet music. I really had a hard time to try to play coherent melodies over standard changes. The first time I managed to get something going was when I was connecting the chords of "Autumn Leaves" with arpeggios plus additional notes.
I already had a pretty good understanding of chord construction so that was only a minor issue.
I learned about Garrison Fewell and his books on this board and his demo videos on YT convinced me to try them. I ordered the first one "Jazz Guitar Improvisation - A Melodic Approach" and for me it was like a gate had been opened wide. I can only recommend them to anybody who starts in jazz.
As for playing Blues in a jazz style for me it is difficult to stay away from the tried and true "Blues" - blues lines and get used to a different approach - different lines that include all the important and jazz-relevant tensions plus different intervals than I'm used to.
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I sometimes wonder if a blues background is a major hindrance for those wishing to move over to Jazz. There is so much to unlearn, right down to the subconscious, autonomic "muscle memory" level. You have to undo all that and train yourself new habits. It takes years, possibly longer than merely starting from scratch.
Some will disagree, but I think it's worth resisting the temptation to play those time worn licks and to force yourself to stick to the jazz sound, which is a whole 'nother language, with almost nothing in common with straight blues/rock phrasing...
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I like the playing of Frank Vignola and get a lot out of some of his etudes. Here's a book of them on blues
Mel Bay's Modern Guitar Method (Jammin' the Blues, No. 1) (v. 1): Frank Vignola: 9780786679690: Amazon.com: Books
Eight two-chorus blues solos, making for sixteen choruses in all. They're tasty---great vocabulary---and not too fast. (A few are demonstrated at "practice tempo" and then faster.) More in F and Bb than others keys, but G and Eb are there too, perhaps C and Ab as well. It's all good stuff, and what you learn in one key you can transpose to another, so it's a good arsenal.
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Maybe you are right. Listening to many jazz guitar beginners who transition from competence in rock or blues, in their lines I usually hear either no blues at all (typically from those whose focus is on chord/scales or those who rely on an underdeveloped ear), or, as you say, an overuse of inappropriate licks they learned in their blues/rock days. Frequently both occur: when the attempt to "play the correct notes" breaks down, they'll return to the stuff they have control over, resulting in a mix of shaky melodic material "saved" by confident but out-of-idiom blues licks. Originally Posted by princeplanet
My view is that frequently the underlying problem has to do with not making the rhythmic transition to jazz. You have to know how to swing your lines, and even your retooled blues licks work OK if they swing.
But I think that there are rhythmic gestures in blues that are great in jazz too: playing nothing but swinging 8th notes gets lame after a while, and in blues lots of licks have interesting rhythmic structure that one can import into jazz.
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>>My view is that frequently the underlying problem has to do with not making the rhythmic transition to jazz. You >>have to know how to swing your lines, and even your retooled blues licks work OK if they swing.
Excellent comment and something I should work on myself. Paul Brown recently came out with a Smooth Jazz Handbook dvd on Truefire.com that addresses this connection between blues and jazz. Paul Brown is a multi grammy nominated smooth jazz player who you often hear on Sirius Watercolors. He knows his limitations; he is good at blues and good at octaves. And that is what he relies on and it works for him. This dvd is more of a discussion of the smooth jazz styles (as played by him) and less of a step by step "here's how to play it". He does cover a few of his more famous tunes.
Bottom line is that blues is an excellent place to start and you will be well served to not lose your roots. There are a lot of amatuer players out there who didn't come up through the blues ranks and thus will denegrade blues playing but it is clearly part of jazz.Last edited by richb2; 06-29-2014 at 02:15 PM.
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I'm willing to reward anyone who can find this with PayPal, Google Wallet, a used car, or whatever. Sounds like exactly what I need. Originally Posted by docbop
I'm in the same boat as everyone else in this thread and I've been really enjoying David Hamburger's 50 Jazz Blues Licks.
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Jerry Coker has a table that shows just such a transition from basic blues through more and more developed (substituted) jazz-blues. Not sure if it ends up with Parker Blues per se, but there are about 10 steps in the table. It's in his handy little book, "Improvising Jazz". Originally Posted by JustinJames
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I think blues are great... Just like any other style where you develop your performance skills.
Personally the big difference between blues, rock blues and jazz blues is where the blue notes come from. What harmonic reference you pull or reference the ... Blue notes or blue licks. Jazz blues players generally pull from melodic minor and Dorian for blue notes. The notes aren't generally over single chords, they imply chord patterns. The notes don't just work within the scale or pattern, they imply chord patterns and work within those chord patterns.
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