Start learning jazz with a 7 string?

[jameslandman]

Hi,

I am new to the Forum and have a question ( maybe a stupid one?).
I have been playing steel string guitar for years, mostly 70's songs and would love to get into learning to play Jazz. Now I am looking to buy an Archtop and ran into all the threads about 7 string Jazz guitar.
Now my question is, should I buy a 7 string straight away an learn that from scratch, or is that the dumbest thing to do?

Hope to get some wise answers.

James

[GuitOp81]

If you want to play a 7 string guitar then you should buy one
It's not that the better you get the more strings you have. If that was the case then I should be playing a berimbau.





P.S. this is a berimbau

[TH]

If you love the sound, then learn the instrument. You'll be on your own for some things since a lot of teachers are 6 string players; I wouldn't wait to find a 7 string specific teacher. You'll need to do a lot on your own, but on the other hand, you'll learn to do those great bass lines and melody above the two octave range.

I'd say it's strictly up to you. For me, learning 7 after knowing 6 was a real adjustment. I had to reorient myself in a lot of ways. I've never looked back and a six seems like it's missing something to me now. Plus, to play voicings in different ranges and not need to shift to a lower position, it's nice and a different way of playing. But that's just my experience. By the way I play with a low B and I get melodic continuity in bass lines without having to think different intervals.

David

[jameslandman]

Thanks for your reply Dave

[Jazzism]

Interesting, ive also been thinking about the seven string option, mainly due to increasing the range of the instrument in small group situation, solo duo etc.
One thing that can provide a lot of inspiration is to investigate styles which feature 7 string guitar so you feel you dont have to start from scratch. Ive found Brazillian music like samba and choro feature the 7 string guitar a lot.
Here's a guy i used to know when i lived in Australia. He has collaborated with composers like Egberto Gismonti and we have a shared love of brazillian music, having both of us lived in Brasil for a time and collaborated with Brazillian musicians.
I find even when he is not using the lower 7th string the build of the instrument seems to allows it to sound richer (phatter) than normal 6 string acoustics.
cheers

[jalapeno]

To be honest, the Jazz vocabulary is a lifetime's work WITHOUT the added complication of getting accustomed to a 7 string. IMHO, YMMV etc

[targuit]

What is the greatest adjustment issue when switching over to 7 - string? I'm assuming your top six strings are tunes in a standard fashion and the issue is whether to tune the 7th string to A or B. So your fingering would change essentially for only the seventh string bass notes, or am I missing something?

[GuyBoden]

I've played 7 string exclusively for about 4 years. I have an extra treble string, not a bass string. This gives me more treble range and I don't need to move positions as much to find the treble notes.

I'd imagine that the extra bass string would be useful for bass line comping, chord melody and playing in duos with singers, sax etc. But, I'd imagine that an extra bass string can get in the way with Bass players and Pianos, if you're not careful.

[TH]

To be honest, the Jazz vocabulary is a lifetime's work WITHOUT the added complication of getting accustomed to a 7 string. IMHO, YMMV etc

Tiny Grimes, who played with Slam Stewart and Art Tatum, played a four string. He said something like I can play things most people with 6 strings can't play so why would I want to switch. If you're happy with what you got, it's right. I never considered a 7 string until I perceived the need.

There are so many 6 string classical guitarists who can remain immersed in the repertoire and challenges of the 6 string their entire careers. And then there is a solution for those who suffer from pianist envy:

David

[GuyBoden]

Tiny Grimes, who played with Slam Stewart and Art Tatum, played a four string. He said something like I can play things most people with 6 strings can't play so why would I want to switch. If you're happy with what you got, it's right. I never considered a 7 string until I perceived the need.

There are so many 6 string classical guitarists who can remain immersed in the repertoire and challenges of the 6 string their entire careers. And then there is a solution for those who suffer from pianist envy:

David

More strings, means less fret hand movement.

[jameslandman]

Any book recommendations maybe?

[TH]

I've played 7 string exclusively for about 4 years. I have an extra treble string, not a bass string. This gives me more treble range and I don't need to move positions as much to find the treble notes.

I'd imagine that the extra bass string would be useful for bass line comping, chord melody and playing in duos with singers, sax etc. But, I'd imagine that an extra bass string can get in the way with Bass players and Pianos, if you're not careful.

Speaking strictly for myself, I don't often spend time in the deep bass notes, moreso when I'm playing solo, but mostly it's the convenience of playing in the 5-15 fret range and not needing to shift positions when I'm going to a lower bass note. To the ear, it's not a whole lot different from a 6 a lot of the time, but to the hand, the shift is lateral rather than along the length of the neck. It just gives me more reach, down rather than your up. Now a duo with you and a 7 string player tuned low... that would be really interesting!!

What is the greatest adjustment issue when switching over to 7 - string? I'm assuming your top six strings are tunes in a standard fashion and the issue is whether to tune the 7th string to A or B. So your fingering would change essentially for only the seventh string bass notes, or am I missing something?

Sure it's just another string. You probably wouldn't think of it as a challenge. I should have thought of it as just adding another string, it would have made it easier, heh heh.
For me, my orientation was either thinking of the strings from the top strings down, (for melody and melodic voicings) or the bass up (for root movement and bass line harmony) and thinking in that way, the 6th string has an identity as bass bottom, the notes of the sixth string forming the edge of the working fingerboard.
The addition of the 7th made that the bottom (duh) and suddenly there's the 6ths string where my hand expects the notes of the 5th string, etc.
For me, playing guitar is a tactile thing. I'm not aware of "six string with a new string" orientation as much as a kinesthetic landscape of all the strings. So I know where the D string is by feel, and all the notes on it. On a six string the D string is 3 up from the bottom. On a 7, you think, feel and play it as the 4th from the top and the 4th from the bottom. In real time improvisation and composition, there's no time to say "this is a 6 string with everything shifted over and something else where the E string used to be", you just know what your hand needs to know; and it's different.
As I said, it might not be an issue with others, but the relative tactile and kinesthetic re-orientation was a big one. Perhaps a reason why learning 7 from the beginning might hold one advantage.

David

[targuit]

Thanks for the response, David and others! I was a fan of the late great luthier and jazz guitarist, Jimmy Foster, and listening to his bass tones on his beautiful instruments when he played solo...

I realize there must be some 'disorientation' for a while when first getting the feel of the 7-string. Does playing with your eyes closed help? I have zero experience with the beast.

[pubylakeg]

Hi James.
Regarding the 7 string with a bass string, I'd ask what aspects of Jazz guitar appeal to you, and also what sort of ensembles do you intend to work within. If you feel that finger-style, chord melody, and a general piano-like approach to the guitar are appealing, then the 7 string is for you. If you find the more intimate settings of solo guitar, guitar and voice, or guitar and sax/clari/flute/2nd guitar etc, in a duo appealing, then the 7 string is for you. If the potential return of getting paid for playing, but without the downside of negotiating larger fees to accommodate more musicians is appealing, then the 7 string is for you.
Basically, what I'm trying to say is, these are the things the 7 string has been designed to do, if that's the ground you want to cover,go for it.
Obviously, everything you can do on a 6 string is potentially available to you on a 7 string, the biggest adjustment is the physical presence of the additional string, which may not sound like a big deal, but muscle memory is such a major factor in guitar playing, particularly if you've played 6 string for a long time, that your fingers automatically sense your lowest string as a point of orientation, however, with concentration, and regular practice, this can be overcome in a fairly short time.
Regarding books, Chris Buzzelli's Complete 7 string Method (Mel Bay) is very comprehensive. 144 pages, in 3 sections on Scales, Arpeggios, & Chords. CD included. Alan de Mause How to Play 7 String is different. Written for finger-style, it gives fairly brief etudes based on standards showing how to comp behind others, or, to self accompany in chord/melody style. CD included. Bucky Pizzarelli's Master Jazz Guitar Solo Collection has standards arranged for 7 String (and some for 6 string). All these books are for low A string tuning.
There are some great recordings to check out for inspiration by George Van Eps, Howard Alden etc. I'd highly recommend Ron Eschete's "A Closer Look" to hear fully integrated solo 7 string, where melody and musicality are prioritized over technique.
Regarding instruments, Ibanez have a variety of entry level instruments available, in both solid and hollow bodies. If you can't borrow one for a while, I'd suggest trying one of these before making more significant investment.
Please do keep us posted on your decisions/progress.
All The Best.
Puby.

[pubylakeg]

Lol, when I started writing the above post Truthhertz excellent post wasn't displayed. Apologies if I covered any similar ground.

[jameslandman]

Thank you all guys, this has been really helpful up till now, I am going to check some books and some of the players you suggested, and think really hard about what I am going to go for.


Many Thanks

[jalapeno]

Be aware that the Ibanez AF95-7 String is only available in the US

[JSanta]

I play a 7 string archtop exclusively as my jazz guitar. Not to dig too deep into the ground, but I would suggest buying the Bucky Pizzarelli solo book to kind of get an idea of how he incorporates the low A into his playing. While 90% of the book is above my ability, it's really helped me learn how to make the instrument work for me.

I do approach the instrument a bit differently than I do a normal 6 string guitar, but not really that much differently to be honest. I do look at playing chords differently, and how I can incorporate walking bass lines, but otherwise it's not much of a stretch for me.

I have an added benefit that my long time teacher is a 7 string player. Funny that you mention Jimmy Foster, my teacher's tele is one of Foster's 7 stringers, and does it ever sound incredible, just as fantastic as his gorgeous Goodman 7 string.

[jameslandman]

I have that book on my wish list at the amazon.

Thanks

[TH]

There seems to be a lot more material for low A tuning than B. I should write the book!
When I began, I actually started by taking a 6 string, adding a low B and tuning down a 4th. I saw that it was like a regular guitar when in position at the 5th fret, and the bonus of having a lower register if I wanted. I took a sharpie and put the dots in the familiar places above the fifth fret and I was playing in a range that was great for comping and it still felt like my old guitar. From then it was actually not bad switching to 7, with low B.
I'm a self confessed auto didact so I went online, printed up some 7 string chord grid paper and created a new chord vocabulary. I'm really glad I did it that way. It was more work than having the guidance of a book but I got to see just how the octaves are laid out, and create new relationships between the notes based on the increased range. It also occurred to me that when I tuned to low A, I tended to double/transpose the note of the 5th string, and I used more closely grouped bass and medium range voicings; it was easier to utilize my existing chord knowledge. When I was tuned to low B, I oriented myself with the second string, using more triads over bass notes, and I somehow began to get more modern sounding harmonies because of that thinking. The root orientation was way across the fingerboard where my melodic triads resided. For this reason, I've always felt a greater affinity with the low B tuning.
But if I hadn't gone through the process of charting it out, and subsequently taking classical pieces transcribed from piano pieces, reassigning the ranges to restore bass lines, I wouldn't look at the fingerboard the way I do now. So it kind of forced me to really know myself as a player better, doing it without a book.

David

[jameslandman]

Practical question, what about 7 string sets?

[TH]

I get single heavy gauge and go with 6 sets. The gauges and brands vary. These days I'm flat of some guitars (Thomastik) and half round on others (D'Addario) but for a bass string I get D'Addario singles. I personally can't find them in anything but plain wound but that's OK, I've gotten used to the extra definition in the bass. This way I can be more picky about my string sets.
David

[jameslandman]

what gauges do you use?

[JSanta]

On my Eastman I use the D'addario 12-52 flats and a .74 D'addario for the low A. I'm looking at other options for the low A because I would really prefer to be playing with Elixirs.

[jameslandman]

And what gauges do you use TruthHertz?