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Hello,
I have some years playing guitar, still im a very limited player. I can jam over simple chord progressions and know a little theory.
Id like to get into jazz. Being honest, I have some albums (on mp3) from miles davis, john coltrane and I recently got some from wes montgomery (I kinda like his sound with octaves). I listen to some pieces and I want to start "absorbing" jazz. Id really like to play but I dont know where to start.
Any suggestions? When I hear some of the music I can find out some partes by ear, and I know how to play major/minor/dominant 7th chords and another few chords used in this style.
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04-23-2014 10:08 PM
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This is some advice fro Arturo Sandoval:
Get an ipod and a set of earbuds and listen to jazz................all day, every day. You'll start to recognize and absorb the vocabulary the players are using.
A good start would be to listen to some Howard Roberts. Easy, pleasant listening, not too "outside", and if you're just starting out in jazz, easier to absorb than Miles or Coltrane.
A good DVD wouldn't hurt either. If you're a beginner, Larry Coryell's "Advanced Jazz Guitar" video by Hotlicks would be a great start.
Hope this helps, and enjoy the journey.
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Your answer is stated in your question. Absorbing means that. Listen constantly. Learn solos. Play them, sing them. On the guitar repetition. Learn your scales, modes, arpeggios inside and out. You need to absorb that data. You need to be it. Know it so well you don't have to think about it.
Do all three of those things simultaneously and you'll do fine.
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being redundant ;-) Listen, listen, listen.
Avoid the guitarist pitfall of only listening to guitar players. Probably the best way to do it is work your way through the history:
Louis Armstrong, duke ellington, lester young, coleman hawkins, billie holliday, art tatum, bud powell, charlie parker, thelonius Monk, , Clifford brown, John Coltrane, Miles davis, Ornette coleman, Herbie hancock, tony williams, Joe henderson, Freddy Hubbard. Get every Miles recording and listen to them in chronological order.
be aware that there are lots of streams in jazz. The most popular one (especially for guitar hobbyists) is Bebop and its progeny, but that's not the only interesting one. Check out Andrew Hill, Lester Bowie, Eric Dolphy, Check out Jazz-Rock/fusion of the 70s. Check out the great Afro-Cuban jazz.
That should keep you busy for a while...
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You can't go wrong with a good teacher. I think it's the best way to form your foundation, which you can build on. Most people who play Jazz have worked with good teachers to learn how to practice, study, listen and improvise.
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Although I've played guitar for 25 years, I'm reasonably new to jazz myself. I've been working out some Charlie Christian stuff and am really enjoying it. I kinda figured, why not start at the beginning of jazz guitar? The chord progressions are fairly simple and fun. The rhythm is a blast! And his solos aren't too far of a stretch from my blues background.
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At this point, you should be getting every record you can get, and listen to them. Not while you're on a leisurely walk at the park, I mean sit down, listen to everything that's happening. Why did the drummer accent that beat? How do the bass player and the drummer sound together, are they locked in? or is one ahead of the other? Is the bassist walking, in 2, or what is he doing? Why did that piano player play that chord there? Why that voicing? Why did the soloist play that? The best records to check this kind of stuff out with are all the Miles Davis recordings with the second quintet. Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock, Ron Carter, Tony Williams. The best ones, in my opinion, are Live At The Plugged Nickel and Miles Smiles... You'll hear some weird things, chords that aren't part of the tune, form discrepancies... all weird things, but it sounds great and it worked. See why it does.
Other things to check out, as far as vocabulary, I would say Charlie Parker and Bud Powell for bebop vocabulary. Doesn't really get better. If you want some more, Sonny Stitt.
If you want to hear stuff for arranging, check out Ahmad Jamal, Live at the Pershing and Live at the Spotlite. Piano trio records with probably the best arranging in jazz history.
If you want to absorb and internalize it, do at least an hour of focused listening a day. Put on one tune, and come up with as many questions as you can about it, then answer them for yourself by playing the tune again. Don't move on until you figure everything out. Even better if you can sit down and transcribe what you hear, whatever is interesting to you, or just transcribe the tune itself (melody and changes).
On your spare time, listen in a more relaxed setting and check out tunes you want to do this with.
Trust me, do this and your ears will get better. You will be able to recognize all sorts of vocabulary when playing or listening casually, and even better, be able to play using the vocabulary.
Also, go the extra mile and learn the record personnel. Get to the point that you know how these guys play to the point that you would recognize them in a blindfold test. Older guys will take you seriously if you know the history too.
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As great as Wes is, he's hardly the beginning of jazz guitar. Check out- just to name a few- Carl Kress, Dick McDonough, Django Reinhardt, George Barnes (who recorded one of the very first electric guitar tracks) and especially Charlie Christian. Wes learned Charlie's solos note for note- CC is foundational in jazz guitar.
Originally Posted by dallasblues
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As it's already been mentioned...listen, listen and more listening. Not just guitar players but horn, piano players and vocalists too. Thank god for youtube!
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To the original poster - If you seek advice, I offer my 2 cents worth. The advice varies depending on where you are musically. If you are starting from scratch, I would suggest the following.
- Learn to read notation. A classical guitar method book works well in this regard. I learned some fifty years ago from a Richard Pick and Carcassi methodologies, but today Christopher Parkening's works might be good. Segovia's version of major and minor scales. A good classical teacher initially to get your technique down well.
- Get a basic copy of Sibelius, Finale or other notation software. Obtain a Fake jazz book from Hal Leonard, with spiral binding. Begin transcribing songs that you like, using a good chord book. Find the songs that you like off YouTube. Use the visual advantage of guitarists performing as well.
- Listen to jazz as many have suggested. And remember what Joe Pass said about learning songs as the most important advice.
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Hey there. Glad you're interested in the music. Do you have a chance to see any live music? I ask because for me it was a little different. I began with modern stuff that I saw live, a concert of John McLaughlin where I was really blown away by what he was doing. It started with something that had real impact and made me want to find out "What IS he doing?" and from there, I got the idea of improvising over forms and songs that by then, I'd come to know by listening.
But it was the experience of seeing music performed that did it for me...something about watching the musicians take a solo that helped me see what was going on, sound wise and process.
David
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Listening is key, as the others have described. I'd say throw the iPod in the garbage though and get one of the many newer portable digital players. I think the Fiio X3 at $200 is the best deal around. Lots of battery life - easily over 15 hours if using MP3's. iPhone and similar devices are not great for focused listening IMHO...terrible DAC, too many distractions, plus they'll microwave your manly parts in the long run.
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What are these "records" you keep going on about? Originally Posted by jtizzle
Personally, I like Spotify. I don't know about the sound quality (or how well they pay artists), but you can't beat it for exploration.
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People are giving you some great advice here, but some are throwing a ton of stuff at you. I say don't try to run before you can walk. I'm pretty new to jazz too, so, just like you, it's not that long ago that I was just starting to discover it.
My view is that you really don't need to go out right now and buy a ton of music. What you have is probably fine for a start, there is so much to listen to and learn from those guys. One album. One recording. Rather than buying a bunch of records, take the time to really absorb the ones you have. Wear them out. Listen for big themes in an improvisation: bebop, blues, use of repetition, use of tension, etc. Wes is a great place to start.
What I would do is see if you can get your hands on a lead sheet for a few of your favorite tunes of the recordings you already have. A real book would be great. That way, you can visualize the changes and follow along. That is probably the best way to start absorbing jazz. See the changes, and then you will be able to hear them.
Another cool thing to do is to check out some lead sheets for a given standard and then hop on youtube and listen to the various recordings/interpretations of that standard. You should be able to recognize the basic structure and melody even through a variety of creative interpretations.
Also, I don't know if you necessarily need to learn notation from a classical method book as one poster suggested. There are great jazz guitarists who never did that, and you would probably be getting ahead of yourself. I would start simply by learning the fretboard, if you don't already know it. You don't need to be able to sight read complex lines, but you need to see the notes on the fretboard. That way, you can navigate your way through changes.
You say you know major/minor/dom7 chords? Do you know major 7 and minor 7 chords? If not, that is a key first step for you. Learn a few different voicing for your major 7, minor 7 chords. Get the sound of that 7th in your ear. It's so important! Once you master that, you can start adding in some extensions. Soon, the sound of a major triad will be amazingly boring to you. When that happens, you will have the bug, and there is no going back.
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I am going to assume you don't have tons of free time, so here is the economy approach.
Start with easy tunes. You might like some of these.
The Real Easy Book: Tunes for Beginning Improvisers Volume 1 (C Version): Stanford Jazz Workshop, Michael Zisman: 9781883217150: Amazon.com: Books
Choose a tune. Learn the melody in one position. Learn the chords, scales and arpeggios that "work" in that position for your tune. Use these tools to improvise over the tune. Look at fingering charts while you are learning new patterns, until you can do without. Listen to some recordings and steal some licks for that tune. Then do another tune. Use each tune to try to add something new to your toolbox--move on to new fingering patterns/positions when you feel ready. Set a goal of being able to perform a certain number of tunes within a year.
If you feel frustrated, work on smaller sections of your tune, or play slower. But sometimes let 'er rip, mistakes and all. Train yourself to allow mistakes. iRealB is handy for making backing tracks and practice loops. Practicing with and without backing tracks will teach you different things. Focus on phrasing.
A good teacher can help you to build your toolbox more systematically.Last edited by Jonzo; 04-29-2014 at 04:48 PM.
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Just to clarify why I suggested learning to read notation. It does depend on one's aspirations as regards jazz. Today, few professional jazz musicians lack notation reading skills. In fact, many of the finest improvisers in jazz have a classical background. Learning to read is easy from a classical method book, plus you learn proper technique. And learning the fret board cold is much easier if you read notation and can use major and minor scales.
Of course, you can try to read tab --good luck with that. Extremely inefficient by comparison. And although the ultimate goal is to play by ear and is very attainable, good reading skills benefit you enormously. In fact, I suggest using notation software because it helps you synergistically to improve your musicianship skills across the board faster than anything other method I know.
Of course, not everyone aspires to reach the pinnacle of their possibilities. That is up to each player to determine.
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I think it's a great idea to learn note reading. I was taught notation at an early age while taking piano lessons, and it has carried over to a certain degree. I can't quickly sight read on guitar the same way I can on piano (yet, hopefully) but I do think traditional music notation is an important skill. I also think tabs are great, though. I prefer tablature with the notes on top, best of both worlds.
That said, I reject the idea that sight reading is necessary to be a great player. You suggest that one cannot reach their full potential without it. I know that to be untrue, a ton of great players don't have that skill. In fact, I think most professional jazz guitarists I have met have only a passable sight reading ability. A melody line, of course, a complex chord melody arrangement? They can't sight read that like a pianist or a classical guitarist. No way.
But my point was not that learning notation from a classical method book isn't a useful thing to do, it's just not the best place to START for someone just wetting their jazz appetite, in my opinion. Jazz is principally about improvising, comping, and playing melody. Unlike classical music, note reading is of limited usefulness.
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Sort of hinges on how you define "full potential".
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Eccegeorge - I understand your point. But think about how odd it is for guitarists to be amongst the few advanced musicians who may not know reading music as a basic skill. My point is that by evading learning that skill one is limiting one's tools to perfect your overall musical skills and bring that element into your guitar playing. An example from my practice tonight.
I was playing through several of the songs in my personal Sibelius library of transcriptions I created of jazz standards and my original works. I was looking at revising arrangements to the best keys for my vocals as well as guitar, either solo or in a group context for a recording project I'm working to get finished. One song I was working on was Georgia On My Mind by H. Carmichael. I had been playing over the Joe Pass and Herb Ellis duet version in the key of A, which works beautifully as an instrumental, but for my tenor range the vocals with guitar work much better in the key of D. So I was just played in a new arrangement in that key into Sibelius in real time with my Yamaha keyboard synth. Then I was rehearsing the guitar arrangement as a solo over the piano track or as a solo guitar thing. Of course, I can change keys with Sibelius easily, but I was hearing a more elaborate arrangement on guitar and just played it in on the keyboard.
This kind of thing is so stimulating to your guitar playing as well as your overall musicianship. To be sure, if one does not read music, cannot play piano, cannot compose fluently, your guitar playing will be affected and specifically your rate of improvement. I am speaking of my personal experience, but I have nothing to hawk or gain. Without the skill of reading music notation (not tab) Sibelius is likely worth little to guitarists. But, this tool has been a veritable turbocharge to me over the past several years (I forget exactly when I got this $69 software). Besides the value of having real backing tracks you have created to help you rehearse and perfect your playing, you get inside the guts of the song both from the point of view of jazz theory and practice, because you create the music, as opposed to BIAB, which is also a fine tool (though I do not have BIAB currently).
True, a beginner may not be ready to master notation or even desire to do so. But we were all "beginners" once, weren't we? I trained in classical guitar and did not really learn to play piano fluently until I was older, a tragic mistake imo. But, I had mastered scales, notation, the fret board back as a young teen. If I had the possibility to use this technology back then....what a wonderful time it is to learn jazz today. Like an athlete on steroids. But Sibelius is legal and good for you.
Last edited by targuit; 04-30-2014 at 06:52 AM.
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Charlie Parker couldn't read music...just sayin"
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I believe that is incorrect. Originally Posted by OldGuitarPlayer
But anyway, given the choice between being a great sight reader and having great ears/harmonic understanding, the choice is obvious. If you want to play jazz as an amateur then sight reading is not a high priority skill, but being able to read music and notate music will definitely help as you progress, as will having at least basic sight-reading skills. I think 10 minutes of sight-reading a day is sufficient for an amateur. Even 5 minutes daily would over time lead to great gains in that area.
This thread was about "how to absorb jazz" - sight reading has nothing to do with how to absorb jazz. The last thing you need to absorb jazz are your eyes, let alone written music.
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I think this hits the nail on the head. Sight reading is a great skill, but it is really tough on guitar. The way a guitar works, with the potential of playing a single note in the same octave in multiple places, sight-reading is more of an undertaking than with other instruments. Playing piano, of course, you start off with sight reading from the very beginning. But, even on piano, I found that I didn't start having fun and really learning how to play jazz until I focused less on the notes and more on the sounds. Originally Posted by coolvinny
I just think, as a beginner looking to get your feet wet with jazz and starting to hear the changes etc., it's best not to start off with sight reading. Start off with listening. Listen to the recordings, listen to the sounds of the scales, arpeggios, and chords as you play them. Hear how different chord tones and extensions sound over a given progression. Listen and play, that is how you begin to absorb jazz as a guitar player.
I'm still pretty green. I can clearly remember being in OP's spot. Jazz, and the prospect of playing it, is overwhelming! If I had started with sight reading, I may have given up. I just want OP to know that sight reading is not a necessity starting off (indeed, many great players never did it, Wes could not read at all). Use your ears and start simple!
All of that said, I hope one day I am as good at sight reading as you are targuit! I do hate that guitar players get branded as not being able to read fluently . . .
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Charlie Parker played sax in his HS band at fourteen, so I suspect Charlie did read notation.
Notation is a tool. Like a hammer and nail. To get the job done. What's is the job? Learning to make music. Simple as that. Of course your ear is important. Paramount. But if I need a guitarist to play a classical interlude on a nylon string guitar for a movie theme, will I ask an amateur who likes to listen to jazz daily or a pro who can read and accomplish the job for which he is hopefully being paid?
Guitarists have this psychological thing of excusing themselves for their ignorance by complaining that it is so 'hard to read' music for guitar. Really? Can't come up with something more convincing than that? Hell, pianists have to read two different staffs at the same time. And have a lot more keys. How do they do it??
Anyway, if you ever want to get beyond "immersing yourself in jazz" like a warm tub bath and actually want to play a melody in the Real Book for a standard or two, you might find reading notation a handy skill.
I'm joking here, but hey, if you don't want to learn to read music, you are just eliminating all sorts of ideas and stimuli from your musical journey. Each to his own. But before you immerse yourself in a deep pool, it's usually a good idea to learn to swim.
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Yeah, I don't think it is possible that Charlie Parker didn't know notation. No way. If that's true, and he still read and wrote all those complex bebop melodies, that would blow my mind. . .
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That's pretty impossible ! Originally Posted by OldGuitarPlayer
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