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So my teacher recommended I learn all the 7 patterns of the major scale to help with improvisation. I'm very bad at learning scales (I hate doing it), even before I started playing jazz I only knew 2 positions of the minor pentatonic basically, and zero positions of the major pentatonic. It's no wonder I had/have trouble improvising in a rock context. Even though I do learn a lot of stuff by ear.
So instead of learning 40,000 different scales I would rather just have a solid grasp on the major scale, from that I can derive all the arpeggios, triads, etc. So is this the first thing I should get down? Along with the arps within each of those patterns? I'm going to learn like all the great jazzers did by transcribing and copying their idols (which I have been doing), but without a solid grasp on the fingering of the major scale I don't see where all these lines lie. They look so random to me when really they are probably notes within the major scale or something of that sort.
So basically is learning the major scale all over the neck something I should really start working on? If I learn one scale for the time being it should be the major scale right? And do a lot of jazz lines especially from players like Charlie Christian, Wes, and Grant Green fall into the major scale? I would really like to see where all these lines that I'm learning by ear come from. It would probably have them make more sense and be easier to change keys.
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03-19-2014 08:37 PM
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Sure. But don't think of them as "shapes". Think of them as "sounds".
by learning the major scale all over the neck you will automatically be learning the minor scales and dominant scales as well.
Take any major scale, G for example. The 1st "shape" is G major. The 2nd "shape" is a g major scale starting on the second note, A. When you start a g major scale from the 2nd degree (or note) you are playing an A minor7 scale. Play a G major scale from its 5th degree (D note). That is a dominant 7th scale- D7 scale. Start the G major scale from the 6th degree (E note). That is the E natural minor scale. Play an E minor chord and listen to that G major scale (starting from the 6th degree). What does it sound like? Play the same E minor chord and play a G major scale. What does it sound like? Play a D7 chord. What does a G major scale sound like over a D7 chord?
Interesting, isnt it.....
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It sounds like you've got the right idea. The major scale is definitely kinda the mothership of scales. I recommend organizing your approach and not getting too hung up on the scale as an actual up and down stepwise entity. Maybe practice a little of that, but then get right into practicing arpeggios, lines, patterns, etc. derived from the scale shapes. You'll probably find that some tend to fall under your fingers and show up in your playing more than others. I have kinda small hands, so the 5 fret, stretchy scale shapes are not as practical for me, although I do practice them.
In addition to the various scale shapes, many players practice and advocate practicing stuff on 1 or 2 strings at a time as well. As you're already seeing I'm sure, this is a long-term project. But start somewhere, practice carefully and keep transcribing and you'll likely see progress after a bit.
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If you learn G all over the neck
its liberating cos you're not
stuck in one position any more
say you know G in the 2nd 3rd 4th and 5th fret position/shape
so you learn G in the frets 7 8 9 10 position
then maybe the 9 10 11 12 position or shape
keep going and pretty soon you'll know G everywhere
on the fretboard ... hurrah
I
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Yes.
Originally Posted by cantstoplt021
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Ah, yes good point. Learn the major scale on each string going up the neck. Its really about learning the intervals (the distance between notes).
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Jimmy Bruno teaches it as Five Fingerings, and it makes a lot of sense. The fingering sets connect together easily, and have really solidified my knowledge of the fingerboard.
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Just my opinion, maxxx, but I think you have over complicated this for someone who hasn't learned a major scale the length of the fret board.
the simplicity of it is that the major scale has only ONE pattern on a guitar neck. That pattern is dictated by its sound, not its shape.
That pattern may be more easily learned by breaking it up into "fingering patterns" in 5 basic positions. In the key of G major that would be; 1) 2nd finger 3rd fret, 2) 1st finger 5th fret 3) 1st finger 7th fret, 4) 2nd finger 10th fret, and 5) 1st finger 12th fret. That is one system and can be helpful starting out.
but in my opinion, if you leave it at that, you reduce the scale to "pattern playing" and you can fall in to the trap of always thinking in patterns instead of tones. Pattern playing is not all bad, we all do it. But pattern playing alone can be limiting.
Playing a major scale pattern from each of its 7 degrees and really listening to its modes or tones opens the ears to even more advanced sounds and begins to elevate us out of pattern playing. JMO
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I think it is important to learn the major scale over the neck. Other ones to me are less important. Originally Posted by cantstoplt021
Given that you have said you are very bad at learning scales, here is my suggestion:
Learn one octave of the major scale starting with your second finger. Easy. Now find the root note in as many places on the neck as you can and repeat the same pattern. For example, G major - find the G on the 6th string(3d fret) - the fingers go 2-4-1-2-4-1-3-4. Now find the G on the fifth string (11th fret). Starting with your second finger, the pattern is exactly the same - 2-4-1-2-4-1-3-4. Now find the G on the 4th string(5th fret). Starting with your second finger, the pattern is exactly the same - 2-4-1-2-4-1-3-4. Of course when you get to the 2nd string you have to shift up a fret but otherwise its the same.
So the same starting on the 3d string and the second string.
Once you have that, start learning one octave starting with your first finger on G. The finger pattern is 1s-2-4-1s-2-4-1-2(the "s" means a stretch of one fret). Now find the G on every string up to 2 and repeat that pattern.
Finally, start learning one octave starting with your 4th finger and the pattern is 4-1-3-4-1-3-1-2.
By connecting these three patterns, you can extend them to 2 octaves very easily. You also start looking at the note names all over the fretboard in a more manageable way in my view. Finally, you realize that the guitar fretboard has a logical layout in a similar way that a piano does and it becomes less intimidating.
By the way, you can do the same thing with the minor pentatonic scale that you already know in order to play it in more than two positions. just repeat the pattern that you already know starting with the root on the different strings and there you are.
Good luck.
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1>2>3>4>5>6>7>8
-W-W-H--W-W-W-H
W= Whole Step
H= Half Step
Whole steps on any single string is always 2 frets apart.
Ex. C-D
----------------------------------------------------------8--10------
-----------------------------------------------1--3-----------------
-------------------------------------5--7-----------------------------
------------------------10--12----------------------------------------
--------------3--5--------------------------------------------------
---8--10---------------------------------------------------------------
For all string pairs tuned in 4th a whole step is played 3 frets lower on the string higher in pitch.
String pairs tuned in 4ths are E-A // A-D // D-G // B-E
For the one string pair tuned in a major 3rd G-B a whole step is played 2 frets lower on the string higher in pitch
Ex. C-D
------------------------------------------------10------------------
-------------------------------------3-----13------------------------
---------------------------7-----5------------------------------------
----------------0-----10---------------------------------------------
------5-----3-------------------------------------------------------
---8-----------------------------------------------------------------
Half steps on any single string is always 1 fret apart.
Ex. B-C
----------------------------------------------------------7--8------
-----------------------------------------------0--1-----------------
-------------------------------------4--5-----------------------------
------------------------9--10----------------------------------------
--------------2--3--------------------------------------------------
---7--8---------------------------------------------------------------
For all string pairs tuned in 4th a half step is played 4 frets lower on the string higher in pitch.
String pairs tuned in 4ths are E-A // A-D // D-G // B-E
For the one string pair tuned in a major 3rd G-B a whole step is played 3 frets lower on the string higher in pitch
Ex. B-C
------------------------------------------------8------------------
-------------------------------------1-----12------------------------
----------------------------5----4------------------------------------
-----------------10-----9--------------------------------------------
------3-----14-------------------------------------------------------
---7-----------------------------------------------------------------
That is pretty much the foundational story.
I don't think about how many fingerings I need to know but rather to be able continue a scale in any direction
(within the limits of guitar range) starting on any scale note on any finger. Knowing the intervallic structure as described above is what makes this possible. Alternatively, knowing the sound of the major scale oriented from any note would lead you to a similar place. Regardless of whether one is driven by the sound or a formula,
both lead to the same fingerings.
If you play melodies, there is a good chance that some of them will be derived solely from the notes of scales.
Learning scales is pre-emptively preparing the hands for note combinations that are inevitable.
I would suggest sticking with the process long enough to properly evaluate if there is anything of value to me to help you get to where you want to go with music and guitar.Last edited by bako; 03-20-2014 at 09:57 AM.
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Just my 2 cents. Scale work is important at various phases of a guitarist's development. For the sake of simplicity and clarity, I would suggest you purchase a copy of Segovia's version of The Major and Minor Diatonic Scales. Your teacher should help you interpret the fingering. This work not only teaches you the identity of virtually every note on the fretboard, but also develops independence, strength, and tone.
I would suggest doing this first before incorporating study of modes and more exotic scales which is more complex. After mastering the scales which make an excellent warm-up, the next important thing is to harmonize the scales as you play them.
Jay
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The way that he is trying to get me to learn them corresponds to the modes if you start on the lowest note of the pattern I think. The way he has them organized is for example a g major scale you can play a two octave pattern starting on the 6th string (3rd fret) with a different pattern for fingers 1, 2 and 4. And then on the 5th string root starting on fingers 1, 2 or 4 again. And then one more pattern starting with the root on the 4th string. All together having 7 different patterns (that each correspond to a mode if you start from the lowest note instead of the root I believe)
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My advice, for what it is worth, is also to learn the interval of each note in the scale from the root and to become familiar with the sound of that interval relative to the root.
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I would be surprised if your teacher has you starting off learning the 7 3-note-per string shapes rather than the 5 CAGED shapes. I first learned the 7 3nps shapes but IMO the 5 caged patterns are more useful. You might want to ask him about that.
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A lot of good advice so far.
A different approach that may or may not work for you is to learn some maj 7 arpeggios and then back fill eventually with the other notes to complete the major scale. In my opinion the chord tones tend to be more important.
Another thing that helped me when learning scales/modes was to compare them against the Major/Ionian of the same root.
For example, compare C dorian with C major and see where the notes/intervals are different. This helped me understand what makes them unique versus the original way I learned them, C Ionian, D dorian, etc. (Although I believe you should learn them both ways).
steve
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All "7"...??
For my advanced students....they cover 16 different fingering patterns for each of the 12 keys...
For those who want to go an extra mile or two...
Time on the instrument...
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yes learn them. CAGED might be easier. But either should be easy. just do it.
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PATTERN PLAYING IS HORRIBLE FOR YOUR "YOUNG" EAR!
I would advise you to avoid all shapes and patterns type thinking and instead work on your ear (both with and without your guitar). Learn to navigate ( by ear ) where you are at all times within the major scale against the harmonic environments found in the major scale.
There is a great book "improvise for real" that explains this stuff really well. This is the only book you need for at least the first few years of your development. Really ear opening stuff...
At this stage, it sounds as if you aren't transcribing for your needs....if you've really learned a phrase from a record you will be able to identify all of its notes within relation to the major scale. IMHO, transcribe for technique and for ear....sounds like from your post...you need to really dig in with your ear.
Go slower with all of this stuff than you are....this will take time.
Good luck....
BK
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I just ran across David Reed's Youtube videos yesterday. I spent a few hours taking a look at them. In the videos I watched (3 CM vids, some arp stuff, "6th Harmonic Environment", etc.) I found him to be pretty clear, but everything I watched seemed to be a modal-based method that he has re-described in his own words ("6th Harmonic Environment" for minor/aeolian, etc.; I assume the "First Harmonic Environment" is the Major/ionian), reinforced by relying on scale degree numbers rather than actual note names. Originally Posted by bwashabaugh
I'm just not sure why theory has to be reinvented, and in my experience, guitarists are probably the worst note readers (just ahead of drummers and singers) and a good percentage have no idea what notes they are playing on the neck. I'm just not sure that is a good situation to keep repeating as we move forward as musicians.
I hear that the OP hates playing scales; I think most folks do (I know I did when I was first learning to play an instrument). I also think his teacher might be a bit "Scale Crazy" (I once had a jazz piano teacher like that - 18 months of scales, modes, ii-V7-I in triads, 7th, 9ths in all the keys, etc.; I finally dropped it). That said, I don't know any way to learn them without understanding how they are constructed, what the note names are and how chords are derived from them and then practicing them. Once you understand that, the knowledge becomes internalized. Scales and chord spellings are like the Times Table in math - once you learn them, you never forget them. Just my opinion.
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