How many Arpeggio Patterns should I learn?

**lukatherknopfler** · 12-31-2013, 09:08 PM

How many shapes or positions should I learn of an arpeggio. Lets say a Cmajor 7 arpeggio, in how many positions should I learn it in the guitar to be fluent?, is 5 positions enough?, How many do you know?. I want to be fluent in playing over changes, what do you recommend?

**princeplanet** · 01-01-2014, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by lukatherknopfler

How many shapes or positions should I learn of an arpeggio. Lets say a Cmajor 7 arpeggio, in how many positions should I learn it in the guitar to be fluent?, is 5 positions enough?, How many do you know?. I want to be fluent in playing over changes, what do you recommend?

Some here will say 12 positions. I think that is ridiculous and go for the CAGED 5. Sometimes I wonder if I'd be better to just limited it to 4, one for each chord inversion.

**Helgo** · 01-01-2014, 09:46 AM

Hi luke

As far as I know there are three generally accepted methods when it comes to fretboard
organization:

1) The CAGED system (5 positions).

2) The "Berklee" fingering (7 positions). Here you have 7 mostly vertical positions.

3) The 3-notes-per-string-system (7 positions that run diagonally across the fretboard).

There are also countless of variations of these three, sometimes they go by another name.
You can certainly spend a lot of time evaluating these. I know I spent a lot of time on that topic
and I consider most of that time wasted.
Not really "wasted", because I find dealing with these sorts of questions intellectually pleasing.
But "wasted" as for my practical guitar skills.

So, long story short: Just start one system and stick with it until you have it down (that will take
up a lot of time, so be prepared).

Whenever I get frustrated with this question I think of one of my all-time-favourite quotes on this forum,
by Amund Lauritzen:

"[Learning position playing] is just a shitty thing that everybody have to do before they can move on to making music."

*

I personally prefer the CAGED method. There is a really good book about playing over changes, by Joe Elliott "Jazz Guitar Soloing". It has the five positions (aka CAGED), and follows a very structured yet fun approach to being abled to play changes fluently.
Also, learning two of the five positions thoroughly ("C" and "G") will carry you quite far in the beginning.

I want to be fluent in playing over changes, what do you recommend?

If you are a beginner, or not too far advanced, I recommend the book by Joe Elliott.

Hoping to have helped,
Helgo

**NSJ** · 01-01-2014, 09:59 AM

My rule is: can I play a C7 arpeggio starting with my 1st finger? My 2nd finger? 3rd finger (that's the hard one)? 4th finger? I can? Well, I don't have to worry about how many ways I need to know it, if I can develop finger independence.

The bigger issue I need more fluency on is starting and ending the arpeggios on the 3rd, 5th, or 7th of the chord, particularly DESCENDING.

**M-ster** · 01-01-2014, 12:46 PM

When you start transcribing, you'll begin to understand how thoroughly the pro's know this stuff. You have to start somewhere, but don't stop with "Okay, 2 variations are enough," or whatever.

**Helgo** · 01-01-2014, 12:53 PM

good clarification, M-ster! Thanks!

**ecj** · 01-01-2014, 01:05 PM

What most of these guys said. As a beginner you're probably better off just aping some fingerings from whatever method book you're working from. When you get through a few of those, my advice is:

1) Work out the 12-position thing for yourself. This is the Berklee method where your left hand stays in the same spot and you use 1st and 4th finger stretches to allow you to play in all 12-keys in a single, 6-fret block. Work all the positions up until you can play through them at a comfortable tempo. Nothing too fast. It's a good way to open up the fretboard for yourself and get a more fleshed out concept of how the intervals work.

2) Figure out the ones that are most comfortable and make sure you can play a solid fingering for each arp starting from the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th fingers. Work those up to higher speeds.

3) Prosper.

4) Forget all of that stuff and start transcribing licks from your favorite players to find out that no one is playing arpeggios anyway, and it's not that big of a deal.

Seriously, #4 is the thing you have to realize. All of the scale/arp/chord/inversion practice is essential to becoming a well-rounded musician, but don't forget that in the end you want to play jazz guitar, and the best way to play jazz guitar is to learn what the best jazz guitarists play and then play that.

**NSJ** · 01-01-2014, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by ecj

1) Work out the 12-position thing for yourself. This is the Berklee method where your left hand stays in the same spot and you use 1st and 4th finger stretches to allow you to play in all 12-keys in a single, 6-fret block. Work all the positions up until you can play through them at a comfortable tempo. Nothing too fast. It's a good way to open up the fretboard for yourself and get a more fleshed out concept of how the intervals work.
.

I think this is an old timer thing that predates Berklee. This was I was taught. Someone told me this was the Tal Farlow method back in the day.

**ecj** · 01-01-2014, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by NSJ

I think this is an old timer thing that predates Berklee. This was I was taught. Someone told me this was the Tal Farlow method back in the day.

That would make sense. I'm sure Leavitt picked it up from somewhere.

It's a good mental workout, as well as a physical one.

**M-ster** · 01-01-2014, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by ecj

... 4) Forget all of that stuff and start transcribing licks from your favorite players to find out that no one is playing arpeggios anyway, and it's not that big of a deal.

Seriously, #4 is the thing you have to realize. All of the scale/arp/chord/inversion practice is essential to becoming a well-rounded musician, but don't forget that in the end you want to play jazz guitar, and the best way to play jazz guitar is to learn what the best jazz guitarists play and then play that.

I'm sure it's all relative to whom you're transcribing, but the assertion that "no one is playing arpeggios anyway" is highly questionable!

**pingu** · 01-01-2014, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by M-ster

I'm sure it's all relative to whom you're transcribing, but the assertion that "no one is playing arpeggios anyway" is highly questionable!

I agree ... highly !

**ecj** · 01-01-2014, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by M-ster

I'm sure it's all relative to whom you're transcribing, but the assertion that "no one is playing arpeggios anyway" is highly questionable!

My point is that jazz solos are not comprised of strings of arpeggio fingerings. I probably should have said "just arpeggios". There's almost always a mix of scalar passages, fragments of arpeggios, enclosures, chromatic passing tones, weird fast things that are just in there for effect, mistakes, etc.

The reason Parker solos are so tough to figure out on guitar is precisely because they are not comprised of convenient-to-finger arpeggios, but rather licks that have much more exotic content for guitarists.

I'm encouraging the OP to think more about what jazz guitarists are actually playing than just mastering the arpeggio fingerings in method books. You need to do both, IMO, because doing one doesn't cover the other.

**fumblefingers** · 01-02-2014, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by NSJ

I think this is an old timer thing that predates Berklee. This was I was taught. Someone told me this was the Tal Farlow method back in the day.

that's certainly possible, but do you have a source? and more importantly than believing in the approach philosophically, was it ever fully documented by anyone prior to Bill Leavitt?

Leavitt's books represent the first documented source in history as far as I know.

**NSJ** · 01-02-2014, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

that's certainly possible, but do you have a source? and more importantly than believing in the approach philosophically, was it ever fully documented by anyone prior to Bill Leavitt?

Leavitt's books represent the first documented source in history as far as I know.

I guess the question arises, how did jazz musicians learn the music and their instruments before the advent of academia and the confluence of Bachelor's of Arts degrees in Music that officially codified, on paper, the acquiescence and accumulation of such formal knowledge?

Do you think it would be possible for professional working musicians, who are playing gigs every night and even gigs after the gig, to contemplate the idea of left hand finger independence without a professor there to instruct them?

I think we all know the answer to that.

**christianm77** · 01-02-2014, 11:19 AM

I think the more you learn the more fluent it gets. Try to go beyond position playing - practice playing the same arpeggio in diagonal positions along the neck and so on. Don't get stuck.

Really it's best if you don't think of shapes at all, but it may help you get started.

**christianm77** · 01-02-2014, 11:25 AM

BTW - this relates to what ECJ said. A big issue I have with many budding jazz guitarists out there is that they don't play language - at least not in the way that horn players do. It's something I'm trying to fix in my own playing. Arpeggios are good things to practice and a great way to get started but you have to learn to play lines.

Learning to sing and play lines from records is the best practice for this. I find that it becomes more intuitive that way.

BTW - if you learn Parker by ear I find most of the time the lines are pretty logical. I found them very confusing when I was reading them.

**Susan Palmer** · 01-02-2014, 12:35 PM

My 2 cents: Make sure you are learning the interval and note names as well as the fingering. I've heard a lot of students who end up relying on the finger patterns instead of hearing the notes in relationship to the chords. Check out The Guitar Lesson Companion, Volume Two if you are looking for a thorough, progressive and practical approach to learning them in the CAGED positions.