Easier way to remember/internalize chords in a tune?

[jazznylon]

Hi all! I've come across a dilemma in learning new tunes.. regarding chord changes. For me it is easier to remember the melody of a new tune and internalize it, however the chords are harder to memorize. To further illustrate my point, I can comfortably play the melody of 20-30 or so tunes (Au privave, Sugar, etc.) though I only know about 5-6 tunes when it comes to playing chord changes (Blue Bossa, Autumn Leaves, etc.). The way I learned the chords of those tunes was by playing them for a long period of time (strictly repetition!). I can sight-read chord changes well, its just the matter of remembering them that troubles me.. I've heard suggestions of learning the chords not by note name but rather by the changes (such as 2-5-1). Can someone expand on this? Here is an example:

All of Me in the key of C:
1 - ? - ? - 2 - - ? - 6
C-E7-A7-Dm7- E7-Am7

How do you approach to learning chord changes in tunes? Is there an easier way to memorize chord changes rather than playing them for long periods of time? - L

[Vladan]

Wewll, in absolute numbers it's

136 236,

but you'd have to take care of minor and major.


I'm not sure going by numbers is any easier than remembering actual chords. It is if you can always think in those terms, wherever you are, to know on which no. it is, and to be able to jump to the next. I can not do that.

If I'm on Am, and someone tells me: you're on 6, now jump to 2, I have to think: if I'm on 6, then I'm in C, so 2 is Dm, it's over there, ok there I go.

If I'm on Am and someone tell me to go to Dm, I just go there.

[MattC]

My two cents-you absolutely should work on thinking in terms of numbers, as well as the full name of the chord, with root name and quality. Learning the qualities of all the triads and 7th chords diatonic to major keys at the very minimum is a fundamental skill as far as I'm concerned.

So simply knowing that in any major key, you have 2 major 7th chords (the I and IV), 3 minor 7th chords (the ii, iii and vi), 1 dominant 7th chord (the V), and 1 minor 7th b 5 chord (the vii) is a basic foundation to this.

Next note that any chord's quality can be changed to create a secondary dominant. So if an E minor 7th chord is diatonic to the key of C major, and you raise the G in that chord to a G#, you now have E dominant 7th, or V of vi. The G# in the E chord acts like a leading tone and pulls the ear more strongly to A than did the G natural. It also creates a tritone interval between G# and D, the 7th of that same E dominant chord. This is all basic theory.

I'd work on getting that stuff together if it isn't already. And then practicing recognition of common chord progressions should come a little easier. The standard repertoire has a lot of common progressions.

The nice thing is that this can be practiced away from the instrument (spelling chords on paper or mentally, visualizing the fretboard, ear training, etc.) as well as on the instrument (practicing comping, arpeggios and melodically outlining chords, etc.) Keep at it, you'll get it together.

[ColinO]

My suggestion is that, when you play the melody you should keep the underlying harmony in mind - ie know what chord you are playing the melody over at any given time. That way you are learning the chords while still playing the melody.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I find that playing a song in different keys helps me learn the progression - it forces you to think more in terms of the progression generally that about one particular instance.

As for All Of Me:

CMaj7 % E7 %
A7 % Dm %
E7 % Am %
D7 % (Dm7) G7

I think in 4 bar or 8 bar chunks. The song relies so heavily on the circle of fifths, the progression writes itself!

[teok]

You're treating the chords and melody as separate and distinct, but they're not. Once you learn the melody and chords you now need to combine them by analyzing the song. You used All of Me as your example:

The first chord is Cmaj7 (the i Chord). Now play the notes that comprise the melody over that chord. The notes are C, E, G - the i, v & iii of the c maj scale. So that's a Cmaj triad over a Cmaj7 chord.

Now do that for all the other chords in the song, and identify what those notes are in relation to the chord (triad? arpeggio? scale? if so, which? etc) and when you practice be consciously aware of what you're playing in relation to the chord.

You can sing along with the tune but instead of the lyrics you can sing the notes or the scale degrees and at all times keep firmly in your mind what chord you're playing over. Right now you're just playing the melody and paying no mind to the chords but you should know what chord you're on at all times - that's kinda the whole point.

Doing the above it will dawn on you real quick that if you don't know your fingerboard and notes in the major scales, you're f*cked,

[jazznylon]

Vladan - Yeah, thinking in pure numbers '1, 4, 5' might not be the recommended way to go in standards with secondary dominants, its too ambiguous! Thinking in Roman numerals I find is better though as it is more specific in situations like this.

Mattc - That secondary dominant bit was interesting. I actually understood what you said! I'll look into analyzing other chords/progressions and see if I can make connections.

ColinO, teok - Guilty as charged! Yeah I haven't been really thinking about the chord changes while playing the melody. Really haven't thought of that until you guys mentioned it. I should write the note relations between the chord and melody and the functions on the real book. Incorporating chord/melody looks to be important too.

BigDaddyLoveHandles - I've explored that idea around a bit in the past but haven't went along with it much. Thinking in chunks seems much more manageable than just throwing myself out there.. Good Idea!

It seems one of the important ways to really get to know the tune is to analyze it more in depth (which is something I admit lacked doing haha!). Thanks guys! I am open to other suggestions if there is any more left

[JazzinNY]

Something that helped me a lot: search for a video by Les Wise on memorizing chords. Basically, you condense them in timing. Play them through quickly, only one beat per chord.

Do this repeatedly, and it really helps your brain organize the sequence better.

The other thing I do is just think in patterns: 6 chords is a lot to remember, but: ii V I from D, then from C, is only 2 things to remember.

[Jonzo]

There is a book called Insights to Jazz that identifies chord groupings common to jazz standards and gives them mnemonic names. It is also referred to as Lego Bricks method. Search these terms and you will find it.

So instead of remembering individual chords, you remember a few "bricks".

It strikes me as a method that would appeal to some but not to others.

[Vladan]

Re lego bricks, isn't it how we all do it? I know when I'm to learn a new song, I always think in relation to songs I already know/ play, widely known hit songs, or standard progressions,, "hm, this is the same as that one, but here I change to ..."?

[Jonzo]

Yes. With Lego bricks, someone has done a lot of the work for you. It allows you to approach learning standards more systematically.

On the down side, someone has done a lot of the work for you.

[jckoto3]

Yes. With Lego bricks, someone has done a lot of the work for you. It allows you to approach learning standards more systematically.

On the down side, someone has done a lot of the work for you.

If it's the book/method I'm thinking about, I think there's another downside and that's learning a bunch of goofy and complicated nomenclature to learn the bricks. Not that this complaint in any way invalidates the method, but it seems that using more standard roman numeral analysis (or something) would have been easier than inventing a bunch of jargon. I like the idea, but I wish the descriptions were more "standard" and would make sense to someone unfamiliar with the method.

I don't know if it is what I'm thinking about though since I can't get the "Insights in Jazz" site to load right now. If I remember correctly there was another Lego Brick book that came out before this one.

[Jonzo]

Yes. You are right about the goofy nomenclature. Often the best mnemonics are goofy, but that only works if the goofiness has significance to you. I believe most of the labels come from song names, or are somehow descriptive of the chord movement. Of course, the best mnemonics are ones you invent for yourself.

That said, you can take or leave the labels, and still get a lot out of the book. The author provides a hierarchy of the frequency with which each brick is used in a large body of standards. So you can learn them in an order that gives you the most bang for the buck.

As I said, the method is not for everyone. There is some useful information in it, and some people find the whole system very effective. There is an online community of users who are really into it.

[Petimar]

I learn to hear the changes by how they fit the melody. That way I only need remember the melody. Much less to remember but requires ear training.

[Jonzo]

Pertimar, is there a method for learning to construct harmony from melodies, as you do?

[jazznylon]

I started working on the playing every chord on each beat approach and I got to say, it has helped cement me what the chord changes are for each tune (by a lot!). I owe my thanks to you JazzinNY. The video is just what I needed at the moment.

Pertimar, is there a method for learning to construct harmony from melodies, as you do?

I would love to know how to play chords changes (that would make sense) over any given melody at any given moment.. playing against recordings that only have the melody in it might help. you know what? I am going to start doing that (and/or at least at some point later in the future) and see if that works

[Vladan]

I never did it that way, but I have an idea about playing the melody note on top, and below it any chord made on diatonic note of original key as root, but not nescessarily trully diatonic chord, and without nescessarily playing ithe root as a bass note. At the same time making the sequence of roots follow some standard scheme, like circle of 5/4ths, scale pattern, tritone, 251 ... It's too hard for me to execute and concieve in real time, but I still think it would go a long way.