-
I agree, Good point. About 3 years ago, I started studying with a damned good instructor. Great credentials. Berklee grad and studied with William Leavitt. As he was teaching me various fingerings of the M7, dom7, m7, m7b5 & dim7 arps and tensions . . he INSISTED that I say the interval out loud. I resisted, forgot didn't want to . . etc.. But, he wasn't taking no for an answer. I'm glad he was persistent. I learned to not only hear and anticipate the interval . . but understand it as well.
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
-
09-24-2013 04:49 PM
-
On a single string if you start with the same scale degree, then there is just one pattern. Originally Posted by Jonzo
one octave major pattern starting on root
---1--3---5---6----8---10---12---13------
one octave major pattern starting on 2nd degree
---1--3---4---6----8---10---11---13------
etc....
-
I don't know but for fun maybe I will introduce my Kindergarten class to Pat Martino's Sacred Geometry Harmony concept or do some Atonal ear Training with the third grade( I actually do this, they LOVE it...for real).But for real I encourage new guitar students to pick out melodies they can sing on one string...I think it's a great excercise and helps establish some relationship with movement up and down the neck equaling certain intervals etc.
-
Practicing with eyes closed and singing what you play seems to help my ear, of course, theres always a long way to go...
-
[QUOTE=princeplanet;363159]Practicing with eyes closed and singing what you play seems to help my ear, of course,
Yeah . . I always feel like that. But, then I remember this quote;theres always a long way to go...
"It may take a little time to get to where you want to be, but if you pause and think for a moment you will notice that you are no longer where you were. Do not stop . . . keep going." . . . Rudolfo Costa
-
My thoughts.
1. Noodling is not a good use of time. It is filler while watching TV and it is entertaining, but it does little to progress skills. Learning is not done with the fingers. It requires the mind. And if your mind is free ranging, don't expect much improvement.
I was told many years ago that keeping a guitar in my hands while talking to others or watching TV helps by making the guitar feel like a natural extension of your body. It really doesn't help that much. I suppose it's better than nothing.
2. Practicing fretboard patterns, while not a waste of time, is best done while the brain is engaged. For example, while doing some vertical drills you should be thinking " D major pentatonic, C shape" then shift to another drill.
3. Ear training is far more important than I ever previously thought. Here is a free site to work on this. http://www.good-ear.com/ There are also more sophisticated programs for purchase.
4. If you want to play well, you need to play often and smart. Don't waste your time on gear issues.
5. I learned vertically first and now have to focus on the horizontal aspects. I don't think it would have made any difference in the end if I switched the order of learning. It's all about digging in somewhere and filling the gaps as we find them.
6. Listen to music whenever practical. If you like hearing the news or sports, you have to make a choice. But when driving with music on, really listen and preferably sing the tones. When you are bored with that, harmonize.
7. Once you know what you intend to play, use a metronome.
8. Music theory is not only important, it's interesting.
9. A good guitarist is a musician first and guitarist second. The only possible exception I can think of is Jimi Hendrix, but then he wasn't human.
-
For me vertical is taking more time to learn. But which patterns are hardest doesn't change the question of whether there are benefits to starting with the hardest one for you. Originally Posted by bako
-
I like getting the heavy lifting done first, and outta the way to some degree. That way I leave myself plenty of rewards down the track (I hope !). But for me that involves knowing a ton of devices in all the 5 main vert positions in every key intuitively, as well as all the in between pivots.
-
I start my students learning the circle of fourths up and down each string and then cross strings simultaneous to learning major minor and dominant arp shapes across the strings. I think a problem for most guitar players is they start on the instrument to just mess around on it or try to just play some pop stuff, it's part of the guitar culture to come at it from a comparatively folksy ignorant perspective, i haven't ever met anyone (although I am sure there is one exception) that was like I'm gonna pick up a bassoon and teach myself how to make reeds and then just figure out a nirvana song or two, so guitar players need to learn all of it to reach mastery, most stop short because it takes more effort than the folk chords. And mindlessly wiggling their fingers on one or two scale patterns doesn't get one to mastery, every other instrument gets to the place where they know all the note names and how to create them on their chosen instrument (or how I put it to my students "you paid for the whole guitar why not use/learn the whole guitar")
-
I never ever used the CADGED system. I don't really even know what it means besides chords, arpeggios and scales (?) based on the basic open chord shapes of C A D G E? Interesting but it seems limited in scope to me. It misses some areas of the fretboard, I think.
-
I never did CAGED. Probably because I'm not a fan of sounding like a guitarist, and box playing puts me in that sound constraint. If you transcribe a horn solo, chances are it is not going to fall easy on the fingers, and outside any box pattern you might know.
-
Been noticing a bit of "anti CAGED" sentiment of late. Not sure I understand everyone's problem with it. I mean, when learning to comp chords, if you could play drop 2, drop 3 and closed grips across all string sets in 4 different positions (ie, inversions) for every chord you use, then ain't that enough ? Well, no, that's only 4, CAGED is 5. OK, then is that enough? Well for me it is. So why do we need more? When you comp, you move from grip to grip, ie, from shape to shape, sometimes staying in a position for smooth voice leading, sometimes along the neck to move to different inversions (eg, 4 bars of C7, you move it around, right). Originally Posted by jtizzle
Same goes for your scales, arps, devices etc. You move from position to position. You link your C A G E D positions, from any string. There, you have the entire fret board available to express your ideas, be they horn-like or not. CAGED is a great way to map out the neck for every chord or pitch collection, even if you don't find the need to play between the "cracks" in hybrid positions, or to shift positions often. I play the difficult Parker lines best where I can employ economy, with both hands. For the left hand, that usually means I'm trying to minimize movement (much like horn players- you don't see their hands moving up and down the horn so much, do you?). In any one position, you have practically a two and a half octave range. That's plenty for most lines. You run out of notes, you move to another position (hopefully before you reach the positional high or low). What's the problem?
Some of you will say that you sound more musical with slides, slurs etc. I've never been convinced, you can still slide and slur with positional playing. Others will say that the greats all seem to move around the fret board a lot, so it must be the "right" way to play. Yeah. a lot of the greats heavily favored 3 fingers, you gonna do that too for the same reason?
I say employ a technique that works for you. If you think you sound better playing lines along one string, then practice that. All I know is that if I'm going for 8ths at 300, I play cleaner if I move around less, not more. What am I missing?Last edited by princeplanet; 10-29-2013 at 12:26 PM.
-
Well, same goes for chords, I don't try to sound like a guitarist in that sense, I try to sound like a pianist (although I do a very bad job at that haha).
I don't move from "grip to grip". Thinking in grips will not really get you places in terms of smooth voice leading. For example, a pianists really warm comping range lies within just about two-three octaves, depending on the key they're in. It's not a lot of moving space if you want to play some nice extended chords, which just so happens to be the preference of us jazz people. So they find the best possible ways to move in order to get to the next chord and emphasize the sound. It's not that they're thinking in grips or positions (although there are plenty of stock piano voicings), but they think in terms of the notes they want. Guitarists can learn a grip for BbMaj7 and immediately it applies to all 12 keys, which is a huge advantage, but disadvantage as well. We have probably the easiest instrument to transpose in, which will sometimes make us think we don't have to do the mind-work since we can just let our fingers do the playing.
In terms of line playing, it's not that I play like a sitar in just one string. I use all my strings, but I don't think in positions. When you play in a position, your chances of running out of room are really high. A trademark thing of a sax player is how they can start really low, under middle C (equivalent to our first position), and do a run that goes all the way up three octaves above (equivalent to our 8th position or above). Most guitarists can't do that because they are locked in the mentality of knowing the key in a position better than other positions. I mean, take any group of 20 guitar players and ask them to play a C major scale, more than half are going to play it in either 2nd position, root on the 5th string 3rd fret, or 7th position, root on 6th string 8th fret.
It's not about sliding and slurring. Every guitar player does that, it doesn't make you sound hip. Also, many Parker lines are very guitar friendly, which I do love about it, because it's halfway between playing like a guitar player since it's mostly chord tones and arpeggios, but it's horn ideas, so it drastically changes your playing. Taking a look at Bud Powell steps out of that for a bit and makes you get outside a guitar box playing, but it still has it's guitar friendly parts.
I'm talking about when you get to guys like Joe Henderson, Coltrane, Freddie Hubbard, and Woody Shaw. Those lines are a bitch to play on the guitar, but when you get them under your fingers and you play them, people are immediately drawn to what you're doing, because they don't know what the hell that was, it just doesn't sound like it's supposed to be on the guitar. Those kind of lines don't fall into box playing and take you out of your comfort zone.
-
Well I'm a bit curious. Would like to know an example of a line, of say 3 octaves or more, that you think moving between CAGED positions can't cover. I know what you're saying regarding certain chord voicings that fall between the CAGED divisions, many inversions we all use breach 2 adjacent CAGED positions. But with bop phrasing, to get the chromatics and enclosures, you're always forced to move out of the strict CAGED thing too. Further, there are always some parts of a phrase, either transcribed, or what you make up yourself, that have to utilize a hybrid of 2 or more positions. But I think I can see 80% of what I do in terms of "belonging" to one of 5 positions or another. And for the other 20%, I'm still aware of the positions I'm "straddling"....
Reply With Quote
Julian Lage Trio - Sat 27th April - Marciac,...
Today, 03:57 PM in The Players