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Hi everyone. I have been a member for a good while but just never posted. I am at a point where it is becoming pretty clear that I am not gonna be a good guitar player. I have been working on it for about ten years (off and on with instructors) and I am just NOT VERY GOOD. But I am okay with that. Just turned 50 and didnt expect to go on tour anyway. I play because I really like to.
My question is if you can steer me to more videos or dvd's like the ones here. I can listen, watch, read the tab, and come off okay, which I get a big kick out of. Doing anything other than mimiking what I see is looking pretty doubtful.
Would love to understand theory and be able to figure out stuff, but I just cant seem to get my mind around it!
Thanks for any direction that you can give me.
Wayne
Raleigh NC
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09-06-2013 07:58 PM
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Wayne, have you ever considered this:
www.jbguitarworkshop.com
?
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Wayne, do you play bass? It's a great way to really get the bass-ics drilled into you and work on your rhythm and groove at the same time. It will also make your hands stronger and give you more opportunity to play with others. For beginners and intermediate players I think doubling on bass has an immediate and very positive effect on their guitar playing.
You might also find that you like bass...or drums, better than guitar anyway.
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How about watching a lot less videos and playing more? I don't think I've ever watched a complete instructional video or DVD. It gets confusing when you apply all these other peoples personal concepts and points of view. Once you kind of get it it's time to go get it. Listen to music for inspiration.
That's what I think from the minority view.Last edited by henryrobinett; 09-07-2013 at 01:48 PM.
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Thanks guys. I have looked at some of the online stuff but am a little leary about it. Interesting that the bass suggestion was made because I have played some bass in the past couple of months and its a lot of fun. Not sure if its helping my timing or not.
Henry - you have a good point. Not so much watching videos as depending on tab. That is sort of what prompted the post to start with. I got to thinking that if I had really been trying to learn to play for the past 10 years instead of playing tab all the time......I would be a lot better off.
I actually made contact with an instructor here locally through this post and I am going to give that a try. My interest has always been jazz but I have never had an instructor who is interested in it. Playing AC/DC is just not interesting to me or (in my opinion) a challenge the way a well played jazz tune is. Thanks for the responses.
WAYNE
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What I did and basically the way I teach my students, is admittedly difficult, but it works on the basics incessantly, almost before the real candy cane stuff. Your fingers know what they're supposed to be doing. The tabs, licks and more musical stuff you study then has real contex. You know more of what you're doing. The mystery is removed somewhat and you just work it.
Every method will probably work eventually. I just hate to see guys continually spinning their wheels in the sand going from teacher to teacher, YouTube to YouTube, book to book and seemingly going nowhere, or at a snails pace.
Just keep working it. Remember consistency is what will get you there. A little bit every day is way better than a lot once a week or two.
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I sense a lot of frustration in your post . . . and I also read the post to be in conflict with itself as well. You admittedly are not currently and will never be "very good" . . . what ever that means to you. OK . . . so then you've already accomplished much more than most others will. Your own specific realities. Yet, you seem to want to become more than you believe that you can. Ya can't have it both ways. Either you can learn . . or you can't.
Too many people are led to believe that if they read, study, wood shed, live and dream guitar . . they will eventually become "very good". Not all will. Everyone will certainly improve and each at a different pace. Ya gotta break that term . . "very good" . . down to what it really means to you. For me, personally . . I am indeed a very good guitar player . . as compared to someone who has never even pick up a guitar. However, as compared to a Pat Metheny type player . . I ain't shit.
What are you own self imposed goals? Have you asked yourself that question? Do you want to learn . . really learn music and apply it to guitar playing? Or are you comfortable just mimicking someone else's playing? Neither is wrong and it's your choice to make.
Based upon your comment .. "I can listen, watch, read tab and come off ok" . . I believe that you can indeed learn. I would doubt that you have any kind of a learning impediment. It's sounds to me like you're having a difficult time with study and practice structure and routine . . and that you haven't yet been exposed to a jazz guitar teacher that has recognized that and offered constructive council and teachings to over come it. My suggestion to you would be first and foremost, define your goals. Then, if those goals include becoming a better musician and not just a better "player" . . . . seek out a teacher who knows how to teach music and structured study habits . . . not just one who is a great player. There's a huge difference in the two. Sometimes you'll find both attributes in a teacher . . . but, more often than not, you won't.
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Hey Wayneman. Anybody who is driven enough can play reasonably well, even if they "aren't very good". Even jazz guitar, which is so often presented as an insurmountable difficult amalgam of difficult theory, technique, etc, is in fact not that hard to play reasonably well even if you aren't that talented (I'm proof of that). (Playing very well is another thing entirely, you'll notice that for every 1000 self-labeled jazz musicians only one or two are actually very good). Every path is different, hence the countless approaches offered on a forum like this.
Originally Posted by wayneman
But the bottom line is you have to be driven by the love of the music to put in the time in a way that moves you forward. If you aren't listening to jazz much (or if the only jazz you listen to is guitar) it will be impossible to improve as a jazz musician. I'd recommend to you (and anyone else who wants to get good at jazz but isnt getting there) to spend 10 hours a day for the next month and listen nonstop to Louis Armstrong, Lester young, Bud Powell, Charlie parker, John Coltrane, Clifford Brown, Duke Ellington, (avoid guitarists!) to "get" what this music is about. Then when you go back to your guitar you'll understand the music in a way that no instruction book or instruction video or online forum could ever teach you.
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Patrick - you and pkirk nailed it. You were able to articulate what I was trying to say and I know a big part of that is listening to more jazz that is not guitar. For whatever reason, that had not occurred to me. I had never been into jazz before I started playing guitar so even the "standards" are not second nature. Sometimes when I listen to one version, it sounds nothing like what I expect. This sort of leaves me still wondering what the song sounds like broken down to a simpler version. Its hard not to listen to guys like Joe Pass because it is pretty awe inspiring stuff. But (too me) it often gets so busy and complicated that the essence of the song is almost lost. I'm going to have my first lesson with the new instructor Wednesday and I am going to try to keep doing enough of the fun stuff to enjoy what I'm doing, but take on the more difficult things I should have been studying all along (which is not to say that isn't fun - just more work!).
Your right, there was a lot of frustration there but I am on the right track.
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10 years. Standing on it's own, it sounds, and may seem, like a long time - Compared to what? It's not.
An average black belt earns that belt around 5 years. In the serious study of say, a martial art like karate, one doesn't even begin serious study until you've reached the black belt level. Attaining a black belt means you've learned the fundamentals - The basics. You've countless more hours, days, years, of training ahead. In that sense, a black belt is a beginning. That's all.
But, you say, this is the study of jazz guitar?
I'd studied martial arts for many, many years, before deciding to dedicate myself to the study of an instrument. The persistence, the discipline (sweat), the injuries - It's all part of the journey, for there's a lesson in each. And one day one realizes the teaching, the learning, is in the daily struggle.
I doubt there's one serious musician here that hasn't faced what I refer to as that 'wall of frustration'. That wall where we find ourselves in what we feel is a dormant state, not progressing forward as quickly or smoothly as we think we should. We're each chipping away at the wall. Occasionally we'll knock off a clump...but usually, if you're lucky, it's a fine dust.
This daily dust from your wall is your path. Period. Staying on our path is the reward. That is all there is to know.
Make becoming a jazz musician completely secondary to your goals. Don't be obsessed with tomorrow's outcome. Immerse yourself in those moments of joy that occur each day. Being immersed in the present is the best cure against obsession with what may, or may not, happen in the future. Release the burden of what did or did not happen yesterday that is a burden to you today. Just open your hand. There, it's gone. The only day, hour, minute within your control is this one - Today. Become a master of this moment. Don't futurize. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Reevaluate what you've done, set a course to a new direction, begin to fill in some blanks to those things you find confusing.
But in the end, know this - The struggle IS the journey. Each day is a possibility to discover something new. Remind yourself how privileged you are to have the opportunity to study this art, in this day and age. In gratitude one can find themselves refreshed anew - One breath, one day at a time.Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 09-08-2013 at 01:14 PM.
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Speaking as someone who is not a good guitarist, here's how I see it. Whatever level I am (not much different from last year but hey-ho) I can play things at my level, below my level, or above my level. It's tempting to play above my level because that gives me the illusion that I'm there, when I'm not. When I play things below my level, I can get them to sound great!
I can relax and focus on tone and control. I love anything that sounds great.
So I try to get by with a combination of 'at' my level and 'below' my level, and hope that someday I do get better.
I've been reading Musician's Way, very very slowly, and there's a lot of wisdom in there.
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Wayne - Tell us a bit more about where you are musically right now, your musical tastes outside jazz, and whether you read music or not. Playing music to me is like the Tao - the Way - it's a journey and you should enjoy the ride.
But improvement can happen at any stage, though what steps to take may depend on where you are on the journey.
You mention videos and DVDs. Well, as you know, instructional videos are on different levels. One guy who I think is an excellent teacher is Pat Donohue. His playing is masterful, and he is very articulate. You don't need the ability to read notation. Check out some of his instructional stuff on YT.
It does make a world of difference if you can read notation, if you know your chord construction, if you know the fret board fluently, if you have developed good technique. If you are reasonably comfortable with the basics, get yourself a Real Book, like Hal Leonard's Real Little Ultimate Jazz Fake Book. Sit down with a good chord book and work on songs you are familiar with and want to learn.
Alternatively, you could invest in Band in a Box if you feel you are ready for that level of playing with accompaniment.
I've been playing essentially some fifty years plus. I was fortunate to start with classical training, but developing your ears is essential to learn to play jazz.
Jay
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Time to figure out what you don't want to learn, and enjoy focusing on what you do like. That way you avoid that niggling thought in the back of your mind "am I just wasting my time here?" Not too late to be a specialist in your own schtick. What's your bag? Swing? Bop? Hard Bop? Post Bop? Modern? Comping? Chord Melody? Blues? Modal?
Sure, you can have fun with them all, but try picking one and make it your main thing. my $.02...
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A single "Learning Curve" isn't a concept that really applies to the guitar. For me, it's more like riding a bike up a hill. Once you get over that hill and start coasting down...wheeee! Uh-oh.... there's another one up ahead! After a while, a lot of guys just coast.
But you can choose the size of those hills. Keep them small to start. A simple tune. Different ways to use one chord. Copy a phrase you heard. Take something you know well and play it in a different part of the fingerboard. You can get engrossed in this simple stuff, and it will make you better.
There's a reward for the work you put in. It's that pleasurable tingle you get when you play something you never did before. If you're not getting that, then it's just work and you'll never be a good player.
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I have been playing for a few months and i can say the learning curve is huge.
I am finding that you don't know whats next until you get there.
Henry nailed it, get the basics mastered. I am a long way from doing that but have made a lot of progress.
Try finding a local instructor that knows jazz and you admire their playing.
It took me months to find somebody but glad i did.
I have only taken one lesson so far and won't need to take another one for a few months so a little money goes a long way. I tried the Jimmy Bruno workshop for a while before I found a local teacher and thought it was worthwhile and cost effective. It is likely that you can play better than you think if you practice the right stuff and get instruction.
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To the OP: do you do any of the things listed in the following link? Jazz Improvisation: A Four-Prong Attack-
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Well. I had my first lesson with the new instructor and things are gonna look up soon. He's really into jazz and seems to really know what he's talking about. The most important thing for me is that he can explain it. I have had about four different instructors and he really makes it easy (easier anyway) to understand. Not taking anything away from the other instructors. A big part of it may have been where I was at the time. I allowed myself to get so frustrated with the theory that I just figured I couldn't do it so I turned into the TAB MONSTER! This has given me a fresh perspective and I am ready to go. Climb another hill as it were - and wait to go down the other side. I appreciate all the responses and will post again in a few months. Who knows. Maybe it will help out someone who is frustrated.
Wayne
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