Thinking while playing guitar

[pingu]

First, Werner thinks interference from the "mind" while practicing is destructive. I disagree.

I confess to not having read the book
But in all the vids I've just watched (I binged on him for a while there !)
he makes it clear that when practicing you must use the conscious mind

Second, Werner believes that things need to be practiced to TOTAL mastery before you move on to something else. This is both silly and dangerous.

Again I confess to not having read the book but ................
In the teaching Vids his point is that when practicing you should take a very small thing
that is not easy for you at the moment,
and shed the hell out of that little thing till it is as easy for you as the "easy stuff" is for you

get it ?

I found that so valuable ..................
its like , in the practice room you search and destroy your little weaknesses one by one

BTW he says
Playing out is a completely different process ...........
I love his schtick that "you can't be free in improvising if you want to play well"

Anyway maybe the book is different but I doubt that ,

I am deffo one of the love Kenny Werner people

but hey I'm no great player , you may be a much more accomplished player than me
can you play the bridge to Blue moon ?
I might shed that tonight I think !

[Reg]

Thanks for response targuit... so that was a yes I can improvise and no vids yet? Cool, how about playing through the Practical Standard Group tune Donna Lee or Dolphin Dance, Wes tune...Leila, Movin Along, West coast Blues... some Joe Henderson... Punjab or Shorter tune... whatever tune you want. Would just be cool to hear you play. Sounds like your a great player.... would dig hearing some.

What do you want to hear about gigs... I'm a middle of the road pro... I have had and still do have moments. I have a cool gig in Cuba coming up, that will probably be interesting. I get all the gigs I want because I'm reliable, can read anything and play just about any style.

Best of luck with personal wk problems.

The thinking etc... thing is fairly well beat into the ground. Players still have to make their choice and see how well it works for themselves. It's pretty difficult to talk or be talked into becoming a accomplished player.

Reg

[Reg]

I would be really interested to hear your thoughts on this, Reg. I've been trying to figure out what the right balance is in my routine. I feel like there's a certain amount of performance rehearsal I have to do in order to stay "in shape" for gigs, no matter how much I'm practicing other skills, but I'm struggling to find that right balance that gives me time enough to focus on both.

Hey ecj... I don't really get to practice enough... but I use many of my gigs as practice, so I'm somewhat getting performance practice. Personally performance practice is being able to have contact with the audience, try and get them to be part of my improve or performance. Not staring at my guitar etc... Being able to play and still have contact with the rest of the players and keep contact with the audience.

Example... I played a gig, a somewhat showcase type of gig... all original material at smaller Union sponsored venue. The venue gets a packed house and gets the door... but needs to make a substantial donation to one of our local non-profit Jazz organizations. The Union pays the band... and we try and promote jazz locally. We somewhat smooze more than usual to help draw in the audience and make Jazz more personal for the audience. It seems to be working well.

This is a somewhat extreme example... but the point is my playing's not the only thing I'm concentrating on, It's just part of what's going on. You obviously need to have your playing together to cover. One of the reasons I always preach musicianship so much. There are other types of gigs where totally different aspects are part of the performance, show and musical pit type of gigs or any gig with conductors.

Anyway... might be interesting discussion. I also play with some very serious purist. I just don't take music as life and death etc...

Reg

[targuit]

Ciao, Reg! The tales of the gigs was in regards to that Cuba thing. When I noticed you not posting for a while, I thought you might be in Havana.

Leila it is. Great song with nice changes. Love that song. I think I first heard it off my Riverside collection of albums back in the day when I first got into Wes in my early twenties. I'm working on it now, with my Sibelius program open as I transcribe the chordal progression off Wes' recording a measure or two at a time. I'm thinking of laying down a bass track and sax and piano perhaps with my synth. The weakest link is my canned percussion in my Korg D1200, but you'll have to understand. Maybe I'll just leave it as a hi hat click track. I'm looking forward to soloing over the changes, though if I don't use my Yamaha classical, it's gonna be the Godin LGX electric. Will try to get a warm and woodier tone.

I did consider some other choices. I confess I just dislike Donna Lee intensely - maybe I just don't grok that song's appeal. I do like Dolphin Dance but that would require a lot more work than I have time for today. I used to listen to Wayne Shorter more back in the day with Zawinal (sp?) and Weather Report (absolutely loved My Body Electric back then) but they are horn players and I ...I don't have any "horn envy".

Jay

[targuit]

Almost done with my transcription. I'm doing the melody as well, though I'll probably be loose with it. Since I don't have Transcribe or anything like that, I have to start and stop the YT video every few measures to switch to my Sibelius to enter the notes. And with a song like this I sometimes lose my place. Big pain. But nearly done, and I can solo along to my transcription. Love this song, and I can't wait to record it. Gotta decide whether to use the classical or electric for the lead. I hope I can finish it today, but if I run out of time, I have to wait till the next weekend. We really should go to three day weekends....

Jay

[Reg]

Hey Jay... sounds like way too much work... just read the head and solo through the changes. Most phones can record or even your computer etc... I just use a cheap little Kodak Zi1 and make backing tracks with, again cheap DigTeck JamMan. Quality somewhat sucks... but fine for Forum and youtube posts.

But does sound like your enjoying the process... it is a great tune. looking forward to post.
Thanks Reg

[targuit]

Hey, Reg! I don't want to derail the post, as the topic was thinking while playing. When I'm playing, I'm doing intense listening and then responding as the music is flowing by. In another thread I recounted what Robben Ford replied when I asked if he mentally scat his solos or what he was thinking. He replied, No, that he kind of rode the emotional wave of the music. And I like that analogy, because a good surfer makes adjustments to his body position, feet, weight balance - all this in response to the wave he or she is riding. I think a musician does that too. Not to say that you can't step outside the flow and think about what you're doing. But in the moment you likely make so many adjustments that you are not even aware of as you respond to the musicians around you and to the music in your mind.

I don't doubt that you, Reg, can multitask in the moment of performance, but not everyone can. And I think you agree that a lot of your preparation is in practice at least for those who don't play nightly. Not to mention the lifetime of playing behind you.

I'm looking forward to recording that beautiful tune. I find that doing the transcriptions helps me get inside the music well, especially as this is a song I never committed to playing. Thanks for coming up with that suggestion.

Jay

[mr. beaumont]

"Leila's" a pretty straightforward tune...I'd personally like to hear you ear your way through a tune with a few more curveballs.

[Spirit59]

When are we really "thinking"?

There's got to be many levels of brain activity that fall somewhere between really doing something "without thinking" (like the fact that your heart beats without any conscious thought) and doing something as a result of some calculation ("hmmm...think I'll play something out of this Ab melodic minor shape over this G7 chord, as it's 1/2 above the root...")

Even when we feel like we're "in the zone" and don't feel like we're thinking, I suspect there's more going on there than we might believe...

...and even accomplished players may be unintentionally misleading or misrepresenting their approach because who can be %100 self aware about how they are doing something? No musician can know everything about their own process, and somebody who has been playing for forty years (or even twenty) would have a tough time cataloging their entire education and the evolution of their approach.

Right.

[docbop]

When are we really "thinking"?

There's got to be many levels of brain activity that fall somewhere between really doing something "without thinking" (like the fact that your heart beats without any conscious thought) and doing something as a result of some calculation ("hmmm...think I'll play something out of this Ab melodic minor shape over this G7 chord, as it's 1/2 above the root...")

Even when we feel like we're "in the zone" and don't feel like we're thinking, I suspect there's more going on there than we might believe...




Right.

Thinking relates to experience level. Early on you think about fundamentals, technical issues, and hoping you selecting things that make musical sense. As you experience grow and you start to trust yourself you get to focus more on the other musicians and more on your own musical ideas. Then once mastered the instrument and completely trust in yourself then its all about expressing yourself, listening and creating with the others, being in the moment. So how much you think depends on skill level, self trust to let most of whats going on run on automatic while you just steer.

[targuit]

"Leila's" a pretty straightforward tune...I'd personally like to hear you ear your way through a tune with a few more curveballs.

Jeff,

When I speak of playing by ear, it's a pretty educated ear. I'm not guessing at the chords nor flailing blindly at the melody. But a recording or video will always speak louder than words, so I'm going to do the deed and you see if you like it. I likely will not have the opportunity to record until next weekend. (My recording studio is my living room and my son does have to sleep even if Dad is up in the middle of the night. Oh, and when awake, my son tends to live on the computer where my Sibelius is housed....sigh....) Of course, you could always post a version as well if you like. I think your last post was a nice version of Summertime, not the twistiest (new word) of progressions.

What I don't get is why everyone seems to think that playing by ear suggests that you are indifferent or ignorant of functional harmony, which got Bach and a couple of other guys in the Immortals club. (No direct comparison implied.) I would agree that one does not need post-Miles Davis chops to play Leila well. I think Wes would agree. He muddled through somehow with his ears in good company. Jim Raney, Joe Pass, Birelli Lagrene.... Remember, theory is the explanation of why something sounds good, not a surrogate for the notes.

I did take a turn at playing Herbie Hancock's version of Dolphin Dance. It is more twisty harmony, but I just don't have the time right now to transcribe it to the point of doing it justice. If you have a suggestion, I would be interested to check it out. Joe Henderson is a favorite of mine but Isotope was not on the menu for me today.


Spirit -

I agree with you on many points, though the calculation you suggest ("hmmm...think I'll play something out of this Ab melodic minor shape over this G7 chord, as it's 1/2 above the root...") would be something you play intuitively, which is not the same as "mindlessly". Just as I doubt many novice surfers could handle the Pipeline waves, few guitarists without years of experience and knowledge could navigate complex harmonic changes without...wait for it..."wiping out".

Jay

[GuyBoden]

Targuit, your posts are very articulate, could you post a link to one of your recordings, so I can have a listen.

Looking forward to listening.
Guy

[mr. beaumont]

Targuit, I'm not trying to put you in the spot--I'm just saying Leila's a tune that somebody with an educated ear wouldn't have any problems with.

You've been pretty clear that you feel your approach works on whatever you need to cover, so for me, it'd be interesting to hear you play a tune where I know my ears couldn't cover.

and I'm not sure what me playing "Summertime" has anything to do with it...I'm not sayingca song needs to have a knotty progression to be worth playing.

[whatswisdom]

When I speak of playing by ear, it's a pretty educated ear.

I too am looking forward to your playing example. I'm all ears. Thanks.

[targuit]

I agree with you, Jeff. "...interesting to hear you play a tune where I know my ears couldn't cover."


But I'm not sure just what kind of "problem" you would anticipate would be solved by ...what? More detailed theoretical investigation? I suppose one could posit that you can't play what you cannot hear. But if there are twelve tones in any key or, on a more micro level, available over any root, it seems to me the only obstacle is more one of preference or taste. And execution, of course. If you could give me a concrete example of a tune you would find taxing your abilities (which are excellent) or mine, I might better comprehend your point.

Granted I do not gravitate toward John Stowell's or Derek Bailey's type musical taste or approach. But I am not trying to be 'everyman' to play every style on earth. For example, I don't care for or play the music of Metallica. But they are not likely to call me for a gig.

I assumed your comment about Leila suggests it's not complicated enough a progression or not 'modal' enough or something of that nature. I do recall a CD of Pat Metheny - "Reunion" - with Gary Burton that had some really twisty progressions with
very clever structure. But ultimately, it is accessible to the ear or no one would be able to play 'em. Technical ability to execute might be a different story.

Guy and Whatswisdom - I have a YT channel but I recently removed a bunch of covers and even a couple of originals of mine (convoluted copyright issues), so the channel is currently depleted to one original which is more a country style song. My video creating options are limited to a MacBook iPhoto or a Canon camera video thing which is not terribly good. But I 'll either post a video or create a multitrack recording with link to my Soundclick site. For me recording is actually easier than doing video. I know camcorders are available for a modest sum, but hey, we docs are the new impoverished serfs of the State and money is tight. Not to mention time.


Jay

[mr. beaumont]

I don't think the tune would have to be too modern, just a tune you don't already know that has some harmonic curveballs...

I'd be hoping to see NO problem that needs to be solved...I'm not one of the "put up or shut up" guys...I just know that if I get handed a sheet and a few moments to go over a tune before playing it, I'm doing a quick analysis to see what different ways I can get through it and actually play something decent...I'd be more interested to see how you'd work in that situation rather than taking a week to learn a tune...because once you know a tune, well, you know it...

[jckoto3]

Hey targuit, I for one wouldn't mind hearing your country-style original song, if'n you'd be so kind as to post a link.

[targuit]

Ok - stepping back in time. Here is a link (I hope) to my Soundclick page - Jay Dreams - yeah, hoakey I know, the play on "day dreams".

Jay Dreams

Two songs up, with one duplicate. Believe it or not, I had trouble loading 'em (such a tech wiz), so one is duplicate and both have some serial number in the title. (sigh) Anyway, both of these are originals.

City Lights - a song I wrote in a white heat in the last two days of December a few years ago to make the deadline for a Roland competition that was supposed to involve Roland synths. So I composed and recorded (improv, in fact) the song, recorded in my living room with my son capturing the momentous event with my Canon camera a video to put up on YT. As the idea was to demonstrate something meaningful about Roland equipment, I first recorded backing synth bass, sax, and clarinet over a canned shuffle drum track in my Korg D1200. Then for the video I recorded what you hear as a vibraphone track 'live' for the video with synth access Godin LGX -SA electric. Unfortunately for the tune, since I lack a DAW computer software music sequencer or editor, I didn't process or edit the tracks (lack of time and equipment), so the blues tune has a "Dixie-land" quality to it. I should have let the virtual sax and virtual clarinet take turns rather than the "all at once" thing, but hey, I was improvising in the true sense. And the vibes track was indeed improvised live as well. Looked pretty cool on the video, with me playing guitar and hearing the vibes, and snow falling in the background. There is, in fact, no 'guitar' track, but it is all me playing guitar through the synth. But in order to enter this competition for some hunk of Roland equipment as the prize, you had to give the copyrights to the song to Roland! Something that is a clause called "song for hire" or other. I had actually written two songs - the other a nice bossa style jazzier piece, but I didn't want to give up copyright for that, so I whipped up literally City Lights in less than 48 hours. Heck, took a couple of hours just to upload to YT and I just made the deadline. And no, I did not win squat.

My Destiny - another song written under the pressure of a deadline. I hoped to get it in for the American Idol songwriting competition in 2009, I think, the last year they did that for the finale. I got inspired at 4 AM, quickly recorded a scratch track, dashed off some lyrics, went to work, ran home and tried to get the demo tracks recorded and make a CD thing to upload before the midnight deadline. Truly a last minute inspiration. I missed the deadline by an hour or two.

So they are both a bit rough, unedited, couple of clam notes. Not my finest work. And finally, if you search for Madoff's Madness on YT, you will find my lonely channel (one song) left with my original multitrack recording of a song I wrote as a joke for my son. Woke up one day with a melody in mind, and during breakfast I started making up lyrics to make my son laugh. Decided to pursue the Muse...aahhemm... and completed the masterpiece in a weekend. The song was dedicated to the victims of the infamous Madoff, ex- NASDAQ CEO and fraudster of the 21st century. It is a bit repetitive, but hopefully makes you laugh. All original. Since it was recorded as multitracked, this magnificent video I did with the Canon against the background of my fireplace with a fire burning on a hot June day. The first few bars it looks like I'm out of synch, but I couldn't tell when the audio would kick in. So, I'm singing over the prerecorded song. Not live. Justin Beber -eat your heart out! The YT compression really sucks the life out of music.

Anyway, I hope you listen with headphones on, as the audio tracks just sound better than through laptop or desktop speakers.

Jay

[targuit]

BTW, it just occurred to me that this link probably should be somewhere else, but I'm at work so between appointments I just threw the post and links together in response to the request for some musical links of my originals. Hope it doesn't cause consternation or upset anyone. I have not posted this stuff previously, as it is a bit extraneous. Hope not to offend anyone. Y'all.

Jeff - if bad Dixie Land counts, that was an improvised song. I had sketched out a chord progression, but when I went to record City Lights I kinda lost my place on my lead sheet, so I ended up just winging it. And the parts are all improvised. (Grimly...) it shows.

If I'm considering a piece of music off the cuff, I certainly like to see them call The Shadow of Your Smile, This Is All I Ask, Stardust.... songs I'm familiar with. In that case my first question is about the key and tempo, or if there will be any modulations. And then I try to get the sense of what the band leader would want in terms of approach and wing it.

If I don't know the song but have a lead sheet, I can sight read and if I see the chords, I can hear it in my mind. I don't know what else you can do.

Jay

[whatswisdom]

City Lights - a song I wrote in a white heat ... My Destiny - another song written under the pressure of a deadline.

To contrast with mr. beaumont's suggestion: Why don't you put something up that's not hurried and perhaps best represents your skills? It appears that you are going out of your way to put up examples of playing that is qualified by lots of excuses.

[Reg]

Hey targuit....

Don't worry about posting anything... unless you really want to or enjoy doing so. Very few on this forum do post much, it's can be lots of work and create stress etc... I don't mind posting off the cuff... or with no prep.... I'm suppose to be a pro, that's what we do.

One piece of music is just that... one piece of music. Don't take or make it that personal, it's just music.

Your verbal posts are great contribution to the site. Feel free to PM me anytime about whatever...Reg

[Reg]

Getting back to thinking... when your using a chart or sight reading. Complex harmony or complex chord patterns and changes may require more thinking simple because your not familiar with them.... or your skill level of playing may not be developed enough to be able to play them.

When your playing skill level is developed enough and you sight reading well. Complex changes become just another Blues... I'm not dishing Blues, I dig playing Blues, my point is there not complicated, you know most chord patterns and their variations, you are able to see and hear the relationships between the melody and changes and understand what they imply... not just what's notated.

You can either put the tune in your box, less thinking involved. Or put your playing into the box implied by the tune... usually involves more thinking and interpreting notational aspects.

Reg

[targuit]

Thanks for the feedback, Reg. I don't know if anyone actually listened to the stuff I did post. Not making excuses so much as relating the comic truth of coming up with something very quickly and unfortunately not editing it properly. Although City Lights is a blues tune created with my Roland synth, it isn't the ideal way to represent sax, piano, clarinet, bass and vibes. It is all guitar playing, just no "guitar track". And it is a couple of years old. I haven't been writing as much original stuff lately as working on jazz standards.

Whatswisdom - Gotta ask you if you are male or female, as that image would suggest the later?

The stuff I took off my YT channel was essentially covers.

Anyway, I want to put up a recorded version of Leila. Kinda gives me the impetus to post. I would not have put up the country style songs if not for the request here. I've learned more about using the limited recording equipment I have since I wrote those tunes.

[whatswisdom]

targuit: male. Avatar is from one of my favorite jazz guitar albums. Not trying to be negative about your posts--sorry if came out that way. It seems from reading your long explanations that you're stressing about the content of the playing. Taking your time to put preparation into a short sample of your skills is the way to, imho...

[mr. beaumont]

Whatwisdom's avatar is the cover of Derek Bailey's "ballads," a very strsnge, very cool record.

I took a listen, and just being honest, I don't think it says much about your jazz chops...which is no big deal, as they aren't really jazz showcases for guitar...again, I don't think you need to put up or shut up...the peanut gallery can be brutal on the internet (though this site is pretty friendly) I was just suggesting that it'd be interesting to hear you approach a tune more "cold" and maybe talk afterward about what went on in your head during...

Were there latency issues with the synths? The time in that piece is pretty out...tough to play something that swings to a drum track like that though

Wish I could hear the vibraphone part by itself...sounds like you actually played "vibe like" lines and the synth patch is the most believable sounding.