Andrew Green fingerings

[Ozymandias]

I've developed osteo-arthritis in the index finger of my fretting hand. So far the main playing problem from this is it's difficult for me to half-barre with that finger or to "roll" my index finger to play consecutive notes on adjacent strings at the same fret.

I remember reading that Andrew Green discourages barring and rolling as a means of playing notes on adjacent string at the same fret and in the circumstances I'm intrigued by that. Has anyone tried to use his fingering and how did it work for them? Do you think it might be a solution for my problem?

[randalljazz]

in jazz guitar technique green advises using the longer finger on the lower string in such cases. "This fingering may seed odd at first, but it makes difficult passages easier in the long run." (p.9)

being a classical player first, i adapt many jazz fingerings to suit my technique, and green's advice coincides with that in some cases. neatness of fingering lends itself to speed, clarity, and the absence of unwanted notes ringing.

[JakeAcci]

As years pass I roll less and less. I find it winds up being clearer and quicker to use separate fingers, though some times it's unavoidable. I wind up rolling almost exclusively with the first finger when it does happen, but if your problem is in that finger I'd imagine it would be pretty simple to work out fingerings where that duty (when essential) is covered by the middle finger.

I also had a physical therapist tell me once that the half barre motion/position isn't great for your hand. Green feels the same way.

[Ozymandias]

Thanks guys. I've ordered Green's book and will check it out.

There's no way of knowing for certain but I have a strong suspicion that years of rolling/half barres have contributed to my problems, which are caused by wear and tear on the cartilage. Rolling never came naturally to me but the tutors I read (Leavitt, Ted Greene et al) all implied this was correct technique so I put in a lot of repetitive practice time working on it. I wish I'd come across Andrew Green's ideas earlier.

[fumblefingers]

you could make it a point to cease practicing triad arpeggios for starters. try to get by with seventh chord arpeggios

[Ozymandias]

After receiving Green's book and working with it for a few weeks I thought I'd offer some initial impressions.

Surprisingly (given that it seems to be the most controversial feature of his method) the book actually a little thin on the rationale for recommending what, for most players, would likely represent a fairly drastic change in fingering technique. His view is that avoiding barres:

- is less likely to lead to tendonitis
- is easier than it may appear at first and eventually produces better results, including better time and easier fingering of fast passages.

No real evidence is offered in support of these.

In fact there is no systematic fingering method on offer. There are suggested fingerings for a few pages worth of exercises but for the vast majority of the exercises you are free to come up with your own fingerings, provided you observe the basic principle of avoiding barres. Obviously the exercises where fingerings are provided provide some guidance on the type of fingerings Green thinks work.

There are some disadvantages with Green's approach which he doesn't discuss, principally that it undermines the concept of position playing, which is important for sight reading and reducing the number of fingering decisions that need to be made when learning new material.

However, I have experimented with incorporating his concepts into my playing. I've ignored the book's chronology and prioritised exercises where fingerings are given to try and understand the principles; and in learning new material I've tried to incorporate these principles. I've also been working on triads and 7th arpeggios.

I have to say my impressions after a few weeks working with this are generally positive. As the initial awkwardness goes these fingerings often seem to suit me better than the orthodox rolling/barre method of playing same-fret/adjacent string passages. I feel there's less stress being put on finger joints. I've reworked some parts I learned using orthodox technique, including some licks it took me a lot of repetition to really nail, and my impression is that I'd have mastered these more quickly using Green's approach. I'd stress that this is a personal response; someone with stronger, more flexible fingers who finds the rolling method comes more naturally than it did for me might be better off sticking with orthodox fingering.

I have some reservations. My reading is adequate rather than good and I keep meaning to find time for a concentrated attempt to improve it. But most of the material available for that will assume orthodox fingering. Since I'm sure Green himself is a very good sight reader some advice on that would have been welcome.

[fumblefingers]

I can tell you that avoiding rolling not only helps avoid tendon stress, it also helps avoid arthritis pain for older players (not old, just older), and probably even joint wear and tear - a few decades of which can lead to arthritis.

my issue with Green's approach is that it's a speed killer. rolling really facilitates speed.

great classical players don't really roll that much either, FWIW. But then, they don't play a lot of "horn lines" either.


all food for thought.

[bobsguitars09]

" the concept of position
playing, which is important for sight reading
and reducing the number of fingering
decisions that need to be made when learning
new material ."

can someone expand on this?

[Ozymandias]

If you're playing in, say, the fifth position there is a presumption about which finger you will use to fret each note. Frets 5,6,7,8 will be fretted by fingers 1,2,3,4 respectively with the first and fourth finger being stretched to play frets 4 and 9 when required. So when you see a fifth fret 3rd string C coming up you know that will be fretted with the first finger, which quickly becomes automatic.

Green's system takes away that certainty. If the preceding or following note to the C is a 4th string G or 2nd string E you will need to decide which fret to play with your first finger and which with your second as you are not allowed to use the first finger for both; the "correct" answer will vary with context (eg what the 3rd note in the sequence is). If the 3 notes are played consecutively even the 3rd finger may come into play. Even if you accept that Green's system gives better results in the end the extra decision making involved seems certain to make sight reading trickier.

[Ozymandias]

I can tell you that avoiding rolling not only helps avoid tendon stress, it also helps avoid arthritis pain for older players (not old, just older), and probably even joint wear and tear - a few decades of which can lead to arthritis.

my issue with Green's approach is that it's a speed killer. rolling really facilitates speed.

great classical players don't really roll that much either, FWIW. But then, they don't play a lot of "horn lines" either.


all food for thought.

Green claims that with practice his method will actually facilitate speed. I've only worked with it a short time but my feeling is he may be correct, for me at least. But I always struggled a bit with the rolling approach. I was able to use it after putting in the time, but I always felt I was fighting against nature. My fingers are not very strong or flexible so this may be my problem. I now have arthritis in one finger and wonder if years of forcing things have caused or contributed to that.

[JakeAcci]

I've found that time spent with non-rolling techniques has increased my left hand speed on some passages. For me it just depends on the line. You might be surprised how quickly you can get the hang off doing these minuscule shifts to avoid rolling.

[jsepguitar]

The idea of fingerings, by that I mean which fingers to use, not which position to play in, is something that is still cloudy for me. When I started playing I heard about 1 finger per fret and was a slave to it for a long time. Most of what I've seen mostly relates to playing up and down a scale form and not really in "real life" situations.

It's funny because when I try to play something written in notation my fingers are flying all over the place. Then I see someone on Youtube play it effortlessly and their fingers hardly move and I realize there's an easier way. When I play out of a book that has suggested fingerings I'm usually exposed to ideas for fingerings I didn't think of. I'm slowly getting better at it.

I just wish there was a book or resource that provided fingering strategies. I haven't really seen anything like that. I guess it would be hard, because the best fingering is really dependent on where you're coming from, and where you are going, and that is infinite. But some ideas for strategies in dealing with common issues would be helpful.

[monkmiles]

I can't speak to the fingering techniques, but I just wanted to say I'm a big fan of Andrew Green's Structures and Comping books...two of my favorite books.

[Krah13]

I've developed osteo-arthritis in the index finger of my fretting hand. So far the main playing problem from this is it's difficult for me to half-barre with that finger or to "roll" my index finger to play consecutive notes on adjacent strings at the same fret.

I remember reading that Andrew Green discourages barring and rolling as a means of playing notes on adjacent string at the same fret and in the circumstances I'm intrigued by that. Has anyone tried to use his fingering and how did it work for them? Do you think it might be a solution for my problem?

I don't think that I'm saying something new but Technique is just a mean to an end. The end is playing music and this could happen by using many different techniques. I use a lot the techniques you are reffering to, but I'm pretty sure that you can make music by employing different approaches.

[Jazz_175]

Suppose you want to play the following quartal pattern:
a G minor pentatonic played in fourths, so starting from G at the third fret, 6th string,
you have
G 6th string
C 5th "
F 4th "
Bb 6th "
D 5th "
G 4th "
C 5th "
F 4th "
Bb 3rd "
D 5th "
G 4th "
C 3rd "
and so on
(it is also interesting combining this pattern with some side slipping...)

You can find a fingering where you use a different finger for each note, but I doubt that this fingering can be used when playing fast or very fast the above pattern.

[JazzinNY]

some ideas for strategies in dealing with common issues would be helpful.

I start with the key signature of the tune -- say it's 2 sharps -- key of D. I look for a major scale starting on the 2 finger, on the 5th string (or sometimes 6th).

If I play in 4th position, the 2 finger is on the D (5th string). So that's where I'll start.

IF the song really stays in that key, then you're golden. Otherwise you have to move, and I notate in the sheet music where I move to.

[sjl]

Someone knows something about Andrew Green? His web is down.

I've heard that Peter Sprague uses a similar system of fingerings (He doesn't barre).