Where do the fingers go?

[jadarite]

The 2 biggest things I have a hard time grasping when seeing written music is the exact fingering for scales and the second is which chord specifically to play. I know the theory involved but when I see A minor 7th for example, which voicing should I use? I am used to choosing between 3 groups of strings, the upper 4, middle 4, and bottom 4. Add voicing into it and we get a hefty set of permutations just to figure out which fingerings the original player intended.

For the scale part, take this pattern: (major scale) 4, 134, 135, 13, 124, 134
Each number represents a fret and a comma separates the notes to be played on a single string starting with the lowest string.

So I finger pinky, then I do first, third, and pinky again for the 5th string. Now, when I go to the 4th string, do I play 3 with my second finger and then stretch the pinky to the 5 fret.

Am I thinking this all wrong? Should I be playing up the fretboard and not across (getting out of the "box")? Another way would be to play the 5th and 6th note both with the first finger and slide the hand up to play the 7th note with the third finger and octave note with the pinky.

[bako]

So I finger pinky, then I do first, third, and pinky again for the 5th string. Now, when I go to the 4th string, do I play 3 with my second finger and then stretch the pinky to the 5 fret.

Yes, but the stretch is from 1-2, going from 2-4 is then back in the 1 finger per fret realm.

[Guitarzen]

I finger that pattern two different ways, one is I finger it index - middlle - pinky, or the other way is to shift back a half step and play the note on the 3rd string. Either way is fine. Different fingerings lend themselves to different licks so knowing all the possible fingerings is an advantage. Playing it in the position you describe, you can also just hit the 3rd string open to get that note and not have to shift or stretch. I always tell my students with that box it's "stretch or shift". The other general rule is when you can use an open string, go ahead, especially if it makes the fingering easier. Fingering is always a flexible thing with guitar, it depends on the situation, choose the fingering that is easiest and most efficient, don't get stuck on one fingering, because one type of fingering will not work for every situation.

As far as the chords thing, you are talking about chord symbols on a fake sheet? Play any damn voicing you want. But read up on the concept of "voice leading" to help you make better choices. In general, voice leading means move the least amount you can in order to play the next chord, so think: if there is a common chord tone, don't change it, other notes try to move by step or half step in order to get to a chord tone for the next chord. This is why knowing your chord formulas, and notes on the neck is so important for comping well.

[fep]

The 2 biggest things I have a hard time grasping when seeing written music is the exact fingering for scales and the second is which chord specifically to play.

I'd say I do 90% of my reading from 3rd position to 7th position (i.e. my first finger is around the 3rd to the 7th fret). I'm aware of the key of the moment and most of the time aware of the chord of the moment and my fingerings are influenced by that.

If you do enough reading, this all just kind of evolves over time... I don't have to think about the fingerings.

[Vladan]

... In general, voice leading means move the least amount you can in order to play the next chord, so think: if there is a common chord tone, don't change it, other notes try to move by step or half step in order to get to a chord tone for the next chord...

this hold true if goal is to keep it hermetic and straight Jazz. If you're for more open sound, moving shapes arround is better choice. One way or another, due guitar construction, you'll end with several notes being the same and in same octave, only on differend string, in another part of the neck. Strictly speaking, that's voice leading, too. Voice leading rules specify only notes/ pitches, they do not mention strings and timbre/ tone.

[mr. beaumont]

Actually, that sounds like you're talking about common voices...

Nothing "hermetic" about good voice leading...and it's not just for comping.

[Vladan]

Mr. B. ypur comments are always helpfull.

It turned the way you've noticed because I used that quote to expand, where common chord tone is mentioned in context of voice leading.

I agree somewhat on "not hermetic", too, but, as you corectly understood, I was sepaking about comping, and I still say moving shapes sound is more open.

Also I should have used "or", not "and", btw "hermetic" and "straight".

[Reg]

This an older post I made...

"You need to understand where I start from, my basic references.

Even though I'm going to begin with technical BS, fingerings, chords, scales, arpeggios... You need to understand the concepts, both actual playing as well as approaches behind that playing.

So there are levels of playing as well as levels of harmony/theory approaches... your level of physical skills and your level of understanding what your playing.

1) I'll start with fingerings... methods of organizing your fingers with all aspects of playing... I have a base fingering system or my default starting point.

2) Through that fingering system, I'll get into scales, arpeggios etc...

3) Chords, how I comp...

4) I use the same methods or systems of organization... "reference, relationships and development" for almost all aspects of my playing.

5) I'll have to get into forms, rhythmic concepts and what reading and playing jazz charts is... not simply what's notated.

There are more skills and we can get into them as they come up...

My harmonic/theory approaches are simple, use of Modal interchange, use of Blue notes harmonically, Modal concept approaches and use of Melodic minor non-functionally. There's actually more... but it's very standard.

An example... I'm soloing over Gmaj7 to Cmaj7...
My starting point is diatonic... Ima7 to IVma7...

Next relationship could be... Function relationships or function subs;
Gmaj7... access to VI-7, then III-7
Cmaj7... access to II-7, then VI-7

Now I have choice of developing those subs, through modal interchange, blue notes, MM etc... lots of choices.

Or I can introduce more subs through different methods... tri-tone, approach, sub of subs, Related IIs or Vs... implied or deceptive relationships for sources of subs. Other reharms etc... and then start developing through my basic jazz tools for developing relationships...

Every note I play represents a complete harmonic structure...

Anyway this aspect of my playing, how I approach, will if nothing else help you understand how you play... everyone will get something out of it. But I do need to start at basics.. with out a solid mechanical method of fingering and understandings of what your playing...you'll hit walls when tempos get up.


1) Fingerings... I'm a position player, I base all my fingerings or how I see and hear and get out what I hear from positions. (1st finger determines position).

I use different fingerings to help imply different styles. Same notes played in one position have a jazz feel, while when played with a different fingering will sound like rock, blues etc...

I base all my fingerings off 6th string roots and use 2nd finger for those roots...which creates all 1st finger stretches. This is my starting point of reference... My mechanical method of feeling and not having to look at the neck to hear or see where I am. It works well for me.

My reasoning was... my 2nd finger is the strongest, and my 1st finger has the most mobility... which lead to 2nd finger as base and 1st finger for stretches.

There are other fingering... 1st finger, and 4th finger based and some 3rd, 4th finger stretches or combinations of 1st and 4th, hybrids and special purpose etc... I do use many of those. But they are all used in reference to my 2nd finger base starting point.

Everything I do and play in music has a beginning, a starting point, a reference. From there I have methods of using, creating and developing relationships. This doesn't mean I always go through the process of relating to the beginning... I've trained myself... and my instincts, I trust them. My reactions even when spontaneous are really somewhat organized.


This fingering and mechanical references may be a little boring at first, at least I hope so, but my approaches for actually comping and soloing won't be boring. They will help you understand different systems of playing the same collection notes with different implications.

This complete set of fingerings...starting on each degree of Gmaj. becomes one large Grid... one fretboard pattern. When I see or hear Gmaj... I instantly drop this grid on my fretboard. My basic reference is to Gmaj. If I see A min. (dorian), the same grid would drop on my fretboard... but now with reference to Amin. dorian. That becomes my basic reference... same notes and basic pattern... but completely different usage, different starting point as beginning reference, different notes create the guidelines for creating relationships. The how I use the notes.



Attached Images



I somewhat use the same mechanical system for comping...
I use root 6 or 6th string root chords along with Root 5 and root 4. I also see and can use root 3 chords but not much. Those are my starting points... references for voicings and harmonic development.

I usually just voice my lead line, the top note, or have line going on in bass notes. All with reference to my position and what approach I'm using, same with soloing... I don't simple hear a line and play it. I hear the line in context with a harmonic approach. Just as you hear a melodic line or chord progression. What harmonic approach(es) I'm also hearing have influence on the melodic line or chords I'm referencing and developing.

This fingering and mechanical references may be a little boring at first, at least I hope so, but my approaches for actually comping and soloing won't be boring. They will help you understand different systems of playing the same collection notes with different implications.

Here is a sample of basic movable chord forms, all based on open position with roots on 6th, 5th and 4th strings. There all 7th chords which is somewhat the starting point, that starting reference that I always relate to... at least with jazz.

You can take any form of a chord... be aware of the voicing style, how the notes are arranged, and then use that "voicing form", again the arrangement of the notes.... and use for all chords of a tune. You'll become aware of what the lead note is as well as what other lead notes are available from that form of voicing. Eventually you'll be able to hear and use as you choose.

If you keep the same voicing style through a passage... your creating a style or sound... when you mix different voicing styles, again your creating a different style or sound. Your arranging whether your aware of it or not.... It's almost like traditional voice leading, but instead of a few sets of one dimensional rules... (I'm taking it for granted we all know and understand traditional voice leading... if you don't... it's not complicated.) Again you have many different voicing styles which become a tool to use as you choose. You can make a lead line, a melody or a groove line on top be out front or somewhat more background like... by how you use your voicing types. Voicing styles are one of many tools which help create different jazz styles.

All voicing have inversions, you can play all the notes or some of the notes, whatever you choose... The root position chords... become a reference point, a mechanical method of learning your fret board and what's available in any position.

The sample voicings I notated are somewhat vanilla, very basic but useful and for most guitar players great starting point.

One of the goals or where you want to get... is to be aware of all the aspects of comping... Generally you want to get to the point where you have control of the lead line, next the bass motion and then the inner voices. If you have control of the bass line, you'll generally not get in the way of the bass player. And as far as implying the harmony... when you understand harmony, jazz harmony... there are many methods of implying a chord besides simply playing the 3rd and 7th. Fifty years ago maybe... I'll get into some of those methods... in next few posts.

Attached Images So the same concept of a large grid being dropped on the fretboard also works with chord forms. It is more difficult to apply because you need to be aware of harmonic implications of what your playing... but eventually that awareness becomes easy.

[Guitarzen]

this hold true if goal is to keep it hermetic and straight Jazz. If you're for more open sound, moving shapes arround is better choice. One way or another, due guitar construction, you'll end with several notes being the same and in same octave, only on differend string, in another part of the neck. Strictly speaking, that's voice leading, too. Voice leading rules specify only notes/ pitches, they do not mention strings and timbre/ tone.

That's an interesting statement there. Don't quite understand what you are saying, but interesting. I had to go look up "hermetic" and it made me laugh. Odd choice of words there. I don't need a lesson from you Vladan in voice leading, I spent plenty of years actually studying it in college, it doesn't appear you did.

Voice leading rules specify only notes/ pitches, they do not mention strings and timbre/ tone.

That's correct, and neither did I specify strings, timbre or tone. When I said "least movement" I meant between voices. But strictly speaking, there is no reason to be jumping all over the place when the notes are right next to where you are at. But please Vladan, do record us a video lesson on your "open" comping techniques, I'd love to see and hear it. And as I explained, it is a complex topic, best learned properly from a book or school (like I learned it). But I gave the simple one sentence explanation designed so any beginner could understand it. Though it's apparent you didn't.

[Vladan]

What can I say, except: Wow!
I could add - I will not. But I will not. Ooops! I did it (again).

Further, I never disagreed with you, never oposed your statement. Never tried to give you a lesson. Also, after Mr. B. warned me (in his above post) I was too much on a BS side, I understood where he could have read it, and offered an explanation.

So, maybe somewhat drastic example, but wow factor is already there..., if you want to stay hermetic OR Straight Jazz, play all notes as close as possible to precceding (lead). If you want to rock, and be open, move arround your powerchords.
On a second thought, maybe you're right? Maybe there's nothing between the two (poles of music? sic!)?

Glad you laughed on "hermetic", I hoped someone would. Was it a bigger laugh with a reference to "no air in, no air out", "obscure and difficult", "deliberate use of exceedingly obscure, convoluted symbolism", or something else? 'Isolated from outside influence", maybe?

As I said, I won't, but feel free to browse my youtube channel. In about 3% videos there (2 out of 60 something) you can actually see me play. In quite more you can only hear me. A number of videos is is with sequenced music, and a number is without any music. Enjoy.

[Guitarzen]

Maybe I misunderstood you a bit. It could have to do with the fact that english is a second language for you (but you speak it quite well, i'm not putting you down!). And also you have a tendency to say goofy things. I just called you on it, get over it! And your response was no less goofy. Let's not get sidetracked from the purpose of the thread. And don't put words into people's mouths. If you want to argue with me, send me a PM, and i'll be glad to ignore it.

[Vladan]

My wife says I look like Goofy, so I'm cool with that. In regard to what I said, i choose to understand your usage of "goofy" as "protruding", and let it go.

Interesting detail, while speaking of languages. In my language, PM has such a meaning you'd not like being told to go there, while on the other hand, it's quite commonly used ammong friends, while greeting each other, it goes together with "hello".

And don't wory, they rarelly understand me over here, too.

[Reg]

Hey Jadarite...

why do you use that fingering for a maj scale... what's the reference, the next question would be what are your default fingerings for the same scale starting on each scale degree, same question, why those fingerings.

When you don't develop a base or default fingering system that covers the complete fret board for each scale... your going to have problems and have questions like you asked.

Even though I use that example I posted as my default fingering reference for maj scale and all degrees of... I use all kinds of different fingering for reasons....but those different fingerings still have reference to, and are based off my default fingerings.

What eventually happens... the fret board becomes grids or mechanical patterns which reflect what I choose. In your example of Abmaj or G#maj. When I hear or decide to use that harmonic reference, Abmaj... as I said my entire fret board becomes those fingering patterns... from my Example.

What is cool... if I choose to hear or add another harmonic influence... I just drop the new harmonic grid on top of the existing or starting grid. I can hear or physically see the relationships.

Example could be... I start with your Abmaj. which I choose to be Ionian, Then I decide to add Ab Lydian as my first relationship. I now hear and see the two patterns.
Now I decide to drop F Dorian... from the Ab Lydian relationship and from that F Dorian I drop F min pentatonics as the next relationship...

1)Abmaj Ionian
2)Abmaj Lydian...(modal interchange)
3)Fmin Dorian ... (Fdorian is function sub of Ab Lydian)
4)F min pentatonics...(different harmonic application of same notes)
5) add blue note application to Fmin pentatonics

So I used harmonic concepts to create applications to pull from for creating relationships and developing them...
Improvisation...

But I performed using very physical applications applied to my fret board... How I realize what I'm hearing or creating... how I finger what I hear.

Eventually the fingerings... the fret board becomes internalized, you think about it only if you choose to.

Reg

[jadarite]

Play any damn voicing you want.

I am looking for some starters which don't have oddball fingerings.

I got this file called Jazz Guitar Chord Bible, and they throw out a chord progression like Cmaj9 - C6 - Dm11 - G7

For fingerings:

7th Fret Cmaj9
X1312X

5th Fret C6
X2314X

7th Fret Dm11
X2143X

7th Fret
X2413x

My fingers are not landing on the right strings between chords. I can play them individually, but when I go to play them as a chord progression my hand just won't change quick enough.

why do you use that fingering for a maj scale.

I didn't choose it. I saw it as one of the many out there. Is there a list of most frequently used scale patterns I should be using instead? The one I gave is relatively easy to play compared to some of the others.

Also, one question I haven't seen the answer for is should I be playing scales from strings 6 to 1 and 1 to 6, or are there scale patterns I should learn which go from one low fret to a high fret? If so, I would be very interested in seeing what the fingerings for those would be.

For example, should I jump 4 frets and play that way or jump 2 frets? More less? This is why I am boxed in because I don't know which fingers go where. I know the theory involved and I can see the patterns in my head, but when it goes to actually playing it feels like I am losing a game of Twister.

[Vladan]

Cmaj9 => em7 => X1312X as written
C6 => am7 => 53111x you end with A and G octave lower
dm11=>FMaj9=>x43111 (5th fret position)
G7 is just G7, play it eherever it suits you

[Jimmy blue note]

Where do the fingers go?

That's what he said.

There is a school of thinking that says you don't use the pinky at all. Anyone else aware of this rule?

[Reg]

So Jadarite'''

your example of fingerings... looks like there might be a few mistakes in tab...

You probably meant...

Cma9/E... X 7 9 7 8 X (E-7)
finger........ 1 3 1 2

C6/E....... X 7 7 5 8 X
finger........ 2 3 1 4

D-11/F.... X 8 7 9 8 X (really a Fmaj9)
finger........ 2 1 4 3

G7/F....... X 8 9 7 8 X
finger ....... 2 4 1 3

Not what I would hear or think of as jazz voicings... more of an exercize of using common function subs and inversions.

Standard Micky Baker style of jazz voicings could be

Cmaj7.... 8 X 9 9 8 X
finger .... 1.. 3 4 2

C6 ........ 8 X 7 9 8 X
finger .... 2 . 1 4 3

D-11 .... 10 X 10 10 8 X
finger..... 2.... 3 . 4 1

G7......... X 10 9 10 8 X
finger......... 3 2. 4. 1

Those also all have the same note on top, "G" . All these voivings are based on the chart from above that I posted.

I don't know the Chord Bible... but from what you posted... and the title, I would throw it away.

Again The example I posed above of scale fingerings... works, and the concept of why to start with those scale fingering patterns is explained.

The fingering pattern you posted is based on rock and roll fingerings. It's a couple of fingering patterns that you adjust for different scales, or chords. It is very flawed as a starting fingering for using as a reference. The fingering is very usable for creating a specific type of sound... the fingering naturally creates articulations. But not as a starting point.

Reg

[ecj]

jadarite - I'd suggest getting a couple of the "standard" jazz guitar method books that are widely accepted as containing good information for new guitarists. My suggestion would be to get the William Leavitt Modern Method for Guitar book 1, and the Mickey Baker jazz guitar series.

There are a million different ways to finger, voice, articulate everything on the instrument. Start with some proven methods and save yourself some headaches and time.

[Reg]

Good advice from ecj. Mickey Bakers book doesn't need a teacher... the Berklee or Leavitt method books do. By that I mean, you need a lesson plan to be used with the leavitt method. Hopefully a teacher who understand where it starts and where it end up. Most students get lost in the Leavitt books.

[docbop]

jadarite - I'd suggest getting a couple of the "standard" jazz guitar method books that are widely accepted as containing good information for new guitarists. My suggestion would be to get the William Leavitt Modern Method for Guitar book 1, and the Mickey Baker jazz guitar series.

There are a million different ways to finger, voice, articulate everything on the instrument. Start with some proven methods and save yourself some headaches and time.

I agree with ecj looks like you're trying to run before you can walk. Slow down and build a solid foundation as Howard Roberts would say... you don't want to be practicing making mistakes.

[Vladan]

Cmaj7.... 8 X 9 9 8 X
finger .... 1.. 3 4 2

C6 ........ 8 X 7 9 8 X
finger .... 2 . 1 4 3

Reg

Reg's advice is good as always. Change btw these 1st 2 chord's untill you drop. I'm not joking.
If you wan't to play voicings as Jazzers do, you have to learn this and fully conqoure chords with skipped strings.
This change from M7 to 6 is the first lesson and the essence of it all.
If you just want to sound somewhat on a Jazz side, find the easiest way that suits you.

[ecj]

Good advice from ecj. Mickey Bakers book doesn't need a teacher... the Berklee or Leavitt method books do. By that I mean, you need a lesson plan to be used with the leavitt method. Hopefully a teacher who understand where it starts and where it end up. Most students get lost in the Leavitt books.

There's a nice DVD that goes with the Leavitt books where an instructor walks you through the first book demonstrating all lessons, etc. I'd suggest picking that up, too. It has a lot that didn't make it into the books themselves.

[Reg]

I just went through Berklee's Modern Method 1.

Great book with lots of material. But for comping, I don't like the approach. I don't like the idea of learning chords with relationship to position and chord form. You get through the entire 1st book and don't have any organized concept of what the chords are in relationship to. How to comp.

I'm a grad of Berklee... so I won't knock the book too much, but If I was teaching a somewhat beginner student and going through book 1, I would also have a comping and chord structure book to go along with, Or just a hand out with notes to form a solid understanding of what comping is and a collection of movable chords to start with. You won't get that from Book 1.

I don't have Bakers books anymore... but as I remember he gave you a collection of chord forms for each type of chord... and there all movable.

Hey ecj does the DVD cover any comping concepts or just applications from Method I ?

Back to chords and comping... Hey jadarite,

Each of those basic 7th chords I posted are just starting points from that position.... that means.

From That Gmaj7... 3rd position root 6 chord form... you can play any version of a Gmaj chord.
Triad, 7th. 9th 11th, 13th or version of. The same is true with the rest of the chords based on root 6 ,root 5 and root 4.
The concept is to be able to play any chord anywhere with any note on top.

The scale fingering patterns work with each root 6 chord form. Root 6 Gmaj7 chord form... with Gmaj Ionian scale fingering.

After you get Root 6 together, you'll be able to see the relationships for root 5 and 4 chord forms with that same root 6 scale form.

Ex. Amin dorian or the second degree of the (Gmaj scale)... is the same fingerings as Root 5, D7 chord form, or Root 4, Gmaj7 chord form.

The actual chord is only one possible voicing that you can play from the scale fingering from that position.

So... Rt 6 chords A-, A-7, A-13 etc...Rt 5, D7 D9, D13 etc... Rt 4 Gmaj7, Gmaj9 etc... all can be voiced from Rt 6 2nd degree scale patten of Gmaj , usually called A dorian. (it's just a name for the fingering, no relationship to real modal concepts). A dorian and Gmaj Ionian 2nd degree are the same thing... the same collection of notes and fingering.

Anyway this method of visualizing the fretboard works... you won't have weak spots or walls. Makes sight reading and not watching your neck while playing easy.

If it look or sounds interesting... I'll keep going... or not. I'm not selling anything, and don't really care. I'm off to gig...

[edh]

How did this get from fingering the scale to fingering chords?

[Vladan]

How did this get from fingering the scale to fingering chords?

Liike this:
Where do the fingers go?