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Why are all strings separated by a fourth except the G and B strings are separated by a third?
Is it common to memorize fourths for all notes so that you can easily find notes on adjacent strings?
I am not sure if my brain can handle that.
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02-20-2013 03:34 PM
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I wouldn't combine memorizing intervals and memorizing the fretboard at the same time...I'd get the fretboard down first.
There's only 12 notes...each string has a different starting point and moves upward chromatically...
Take it in five fret chunks, 20 minutes a day...say 'em and play 'em. Play easy melodies, sing the notes name as you play it. Set a timer, pick a note, and find all of them inside your five fret area.
Once you get those five frets down, do the next five. You can have the whole fretboard licked in a month or two if you put in the work.
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When I was playing bass I was taught to learn the natural notes on one string at a time, by playing a C major scale up and down on one string (open string to about 14th fret.) That drilled in where the natural notes are, how a major scale is constructed, and worked on shifting positions for technique. It helps to say the notes as you play them to further drill sound into the brain and make a connection with the ear.
Once done on one string down move to another till all strings are covered. Then you know all the "white key" notes of the neck.
After that then need to work on things that use that info like reading, or practice whatever scale patterns you're using do them in C over the neck to drill in "seeing" the same notes in a different way.
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Thanks for all the great tips.
Now it doesn't seem as mind boggling and I haven't even started working on it.
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1. I'm not certain, but I think because the standard tuning we use makes it easier to play certain chords. For example tune your B and E strings to C and F, and then try to play some barre chords....It doesn't work.
Originally Posted by jnbrown
2. It believe it is common for advanced guitarists to have all intervals memorized and internalized so that they can instantly figure out what 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, etc... is from any note they are playing. At least, I know I use this all the time. It helps me sight read easier, it helps me memorize melodys easier, it helps me with chord construction, and it even gives me better ideas for improvising.
Just do what Mr.B says and memorize notes first. If you then want to add intervals into the mix, you'd be better off starting with octaves probably. This would help you find notes faster, and on multiple strings in the same position.
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The author of "Fretboard Logic", Bill Edwards writes that throughout the development of the guitar luthiers have been experimenting with several different tunings and number of strings to find the optimum tuning and they came up with six strings and today's standard tuning as the best for four fretting hand fingers because it comfortably facilitates fretting all kinds of chord shapes without having any non-chord tones on any of the strings that needed to be muted or skipped then.
In his book there is a comparison chart with earlier lute/guitar tunings and none of them seems to work better.
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Sounds like you are just beginning. If so, then I have to tell you this. Originally Posted by jnbrown
Beginners tune their guitars the way they are told to. Some of them go on to become great players. But very few deviate from the standard tuning. For the beginners it is too early. For the professionals it is too late. And for the wanna be professionals, it is even later because they are overwhelmed with all they they need to learn and feel the stakes are too high. For the recreational player, there isn't time; they just wanna bang out a few choruses
Very few have tried both ways. So very few are really qualified to speak on this issue. Only a few odd-balls have actually spent "time on instrument" both ways. I happen to be such an odd-ball. I played 10 hours a day when I was a teenager using standard tuning. As an adult, there were months when I never played at all, but other months when I took lessons and played recreationally/whatever. But when I returned to looking at the scale patterns and chord patters, they filled me with disgust and dread. Of course, all that ugliness was due to the G to B string third. The horrible asymmetry. Music is great, but my time is much too valuable to be wasted learning endless stupid and ugly patterns for scales, arpeggios and chords. It's about as interesting as memorizing the phone book.
It helped that I had seen other entrenched absurdities and wastes of time in other areas. The United States still resists implementation of the metric system. Many people continue to type with two fingers even though with 8 hours study they could make things much easier on themselves. Other people will spend a thousand hours trying to learn a language in a vacuum when a couple hundred hours of immersion would work better. Young doctors are made to work 16 hour shifts during their residency because things have always been done that way.
And I had heard Allan Holdsworth say that if he were to begin again he would tune in fourths. And seeing as I thought he was the most innovative player around I figured tuning in fourths was at least worth a try.
And two years ago I switched. And man oh man, was it the best thing I ever did with respect to guitar. Hours practicing back in the day doesn't compare. Getting great information and tips from the guys on this forum doesn't compare. Tuning in fourths has made everything super easy. So for example, probably few people use harmonic major. I don't. But let's say I had to learn harmonic major in every position. It would take one or two days to learn it very well vertically across the neck. Why is that? Because when you tune in fourths, there is really only one form to learn. All seven positions collapse to one. I suspect most guys would need a week or longer to get it down and then they would need to keep practicing it or else they would lose it. Learning one form is 1/7th as hard as learning 7 forms. Suppose you only use harmonic major rarely. Fine, when you tune in fourths, it takes you 1/7th as much time to get up to speed.
Or look at chords. For every chord played with fourths tuning, there are about 3 chords played in standard tuning. And there are a lot of chords. So that is a huge waste of time. If you tune in fourths, you can spend all that time seeing all the very pretty connections with related chords and voicings.
I am writing this not to give all the standard guys a hard time. I am writing it because I believe fourths is far far superior for jazz. I kept waiting for the shoe to drop. Supposedly it would make chords harder. That's just a myth passed around. Makes some harder. Makes some easier. Makes nothing impossible except a big Em chord. If playing big triads is the key to your jazz repetoire, then perhaps fourths is not for you. But if you don't like to make things 7 times harder on yourself, tune in fourths.
As I was saying for the chords, it's not just the ease of memory. It's being able to visualize things very very very very very very very very quickly. For example, if I am playing an arpeggio, I can tell you exactly where the #11 is. I can tell you exactly where the b9 is. And I don't spend hours a day thinking about it. I just read it off very simple patterns. How simple? Four notes and a two fret shift. That's a bread and butter arpeggio pattern. Four freaking notes and a shift.
Sure, great players master the fretboard. It's important to them. Just as some guys can memorize the phone book, which evidently is important to them.
But there is a huge difference...HUGE...between remembering 1-800-hot-dogs and remembering 1-435-763-4241.
Most cliches are true. One that isn't is: there are no short-cuts in life. Uh, excuse me? I used to take the short cut home from school every day through the woods. Tuning in fourths is like a tunnel under the Himilayas.
Segovia doesn't like to be told he tunes his guitar badly, but he does.
jnbrown, the fact that you are complaining about the G to B string issue says to me that you should really go to fourths. Send me a PM and I can get you started. You'll be amazed. For anybody else who wants to try: A lot of you like "limitations" as a path to creativity. So try this for a day or two: cover up the B and E strings with tape. And then play around with arpeggios over standards.Last edited by jster; 02-21-2013 at 11:02 AM.
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The B string has been a source of irritation and frustration for me a lot in the past, so much that I've tried playing in all fourths tuning on several occasions, but then that presents a new set of problems since all my chord shapes are no longer valid. Not to mention that it confuses the hell out of my younger students!
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You have to just forget those old shapes. Don't try and translate. Just as when you learn to use the metric system, you don't translate liters to pints. As for your younger students, just teach them fourths. They'll learn much faster and thank you later. Especially the shredders! Originally Posted by bondmorkret
Last edited by jster; 02-21-2013 at 12:59 PM.
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I've never tried the symetrical tuning system (all 4ths) but I'm sure it would be easier to master scales and to improvise in that tuning, but not so great for comping. It occured to me that the guitarist of the future might simply change tunings for each situation - 4ths for soloing - standard for comping. This wasn't really practical before, but now with the technology we have (i.e. gibson self tuning guitar) this is completely practical. But you'd have to start learning that way from the beginning. Someone like me who has memorized all their scales in standard tuning and been practicing them in standard tuning for 23 years, wouldn't do better by switching tunings all of a sudden.
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What ever system you use just becomes your reference... it doesn't really matter.
I play bass professionally also... have 4,5 and 6 string basses all tunes in 4ths. Also play cello, tuned in 5th.
I don't believe the point of learning to play the guitar is always the shortest distance from point A to B. But I also don't believe the tuning makes any difference... You might run into "clan" issues, and a few voicing difficulties, but probably not many. I would make effort to check out guitar players who use tuning in 4ths and see how they cover the standard aspects of playing guitar. Listen and see how the technique effects their playing. I personally don't like symmetrical patterns... that's generally what they sound like.
The tuning issue will be the least of your difficulties.
Reg
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Well I'll add my voice to this debate to back up jster, because I'm a fan of fourths tuning also.
For me the only DISadvantages are minimal: certain chord shapes aren't practical, namely:
Cowboy chords (irrelevant to jazz);
Barre chords (which I prefer not to play, as my joints really don't like them);
certain pet grips like xx5433.
These are easily outweighed by the gain in simplicity and efficiency. Because learning the
shape of an arpeggio is so much easier, I can put my time into playing with the note order within the arp,
and how to connect one arp to another.
The ultimate goal for me is to connect the Interval shapes on the fretboard to Sounds in my head, to play
by feel. I believe fourths tuning is my best avenue toward that, although as Reg says there's still much
work to do.
I've also found since switching, that transcriptions make a lot more sense. I can see things more easily:
hey, he's doing a descending G7.
jster, do you have any playing samples on Youtube?
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I'm not sure I see a big difference in terms of tuning in 4ths. I think it is overstating it to say that there is only one scale fingering when you tune in 4ths and 7 when you standard tune. In reality, the only difference between the two is that you have to remember to move the pattern up a semi-tone when you get to the second string. Same with arpeggios - same pattern with standard and 4ths but in standard you just remember to hike it up a semi-tone when you get to the second string.
I standard tune. And I like to think that there are really only 3 patterns for a major scale for example. One pattern starts with your first finger. The second starts with your second finger and the third starts with your 4th finger. Learn those three and you know all the major scales in every position. Same with any scale or arpeggio.
When you tune in 4ths, I imagine that the same is true. There is more than one pattern for a major scale even when you tune in 4ths.
I don't think that there is a magic bullet although as you see, some guys really swear by it. I tried it for about a week and didn't really find it easier than standard tuning. I guess it depends on the guy.
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Several years ago I switched from typing on a QWERTY Arranged keyboard to Dvorak. It took me a few months to fully adopt Dvorak but I've never regretted it.Beginners tune their guitars the way they are told to. Some of them go on to become great players. But very few deviate from the standard tuning.
I'm very willing to experiment and switch to all fourths tuning. Are there any resources that you could suggest for beginner reading?
Cheers,
Evan
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You don't really need tuning-specific resources. From a general source you can find arpeggio shapes and single-octave scale shapes that work on the low-pitched strings. Then you just play them on any string set (until you run out of strings, and then you fold one note under for an arpeggio inversion).
From a general chord book, you just tilt the top two strings (pitchwise) down a fret, and see if it fits your hand.
You mainly want to learn some usable shapes for maj7, min7, dom7, half-diminished, full diminished, and 7flat 9 arpeggios, and Major / Dorian / Mixolydian / Locrian scales. (There are actually at least 2 shapes, one going right and one going left, but it's best to stick with one for a while and really burn it into your memory). Also work on learning the notes on the fretboard and reading notation.
There is a 4ths-specific book by Ant Law, though I haven't seen it.
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I would think if your going to make a commitment to a tuning system that is different from the existing standard... you would have checked out as many players using the system as possible. Generally fingerings have a effect on your playing until you get to a pretty high level of performance.... most don't get to that level.
Reg
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Please don't do that. At some point many beginner's have similar thoughts when they realize the scope of the task of learning the guitar neck (notes + intervals). There are no shortcuts, and different tunings won't make it much easier, or at least the benefits will be outweighed by the drawbacks. Originally Posted by Evan
Start by learning every C-note on the fretboard, on every string every octave, and learn it's associated position on the staff. Learn it so well that you can almost physically see it. When you know that note, there are only 11 others.
For intervals, start with octave shapes-- that's the first level of fretboard organization. If you can learn to see octaves then there is no reason why you can't learn to see other intervals just as strongly.
But really you'll learn the interval structure of the fretboard by saying out loud the note names and the degrees/intervals of every chord or scale position you grab.Last edited by RyanM; 05-10-2013 at 01:55 PM.
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Wow, interesting discussion. I've been playing for over 30 years with multiple instructors and I have never heard of tuning to 4ths, but certainly makes sense.
As far as learning the notes, I'm certainly no expert and I think everyone has their own method... the trick is to find one that works for you. When I was doing such thing, I learned C major all over the fretboard figuring I could always go flat or sharp on a note by choosing the fret below or above. It seemed to work pretty well.
But probably more importantly, even today, when I'm playing scales and chords, I'm not thinking of memorizing the shape or a pattern (although that does happen too), I am learning the notes of that scale and as I practice I think in my head about which note I am on. This pays off in that you are not only learning to play the scale but you are memorizing the notes of that scale instead of just learning the patern.... as well as learning the notes on the fretboard.
Try any of these methods mentioned and see what makes more sense to you. You may find a whole new way to memorize the fretboard none of us were even aware of. But most likely, memorizing the fretboard just takes a lot of patience and work. Good luck.
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Most of the stated technical advantages for all-fourths tuning hold for major-thirds tuning. M3 tuning is discussed in many threads, so I won't bore you with its pros and cons here.
For experienced players, transferring your knowledge from standard tuning is a considerable advantage, of course.
I can imagine that the resonance of the all-fourths may be superior to major-thirds, on an unamplified acoustic. (I play an Ovation, which has pietzo pickups and a shallow body and so is designed to be played through an amplifier. Many players hate Ovations, if they have only heard them unamplified.)
I prefer the resonance of Fripp's New Standard Tuning C-G-D-A-E-G or an open overtone-series tuning like C-C-G-C-E-G to standard tuning or major-thirds tuning, but this is my personal preference.
--Kiefer
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The first lesson I give for "fretboard notes" is as follows...
Just the musical alphabet ie A-B-C-D-E-F-G (by rote) on each of the strings..
1st string....fret 1 3 5 7 8 10 12
F G A B C D E
then the other strings..one at a time...till all a memorized....
the learning of the sharps and flats are that much easier to learn...
Another lesson is play one scale on one string only...up the fingerboard...
time on the instrument..
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Because 4 divides 12 and 5 doesn't, the fretboard of M3 tuning is much simpler. Originally Posted by Evan
Before switching, you may wish to examine the resources at this page.
Major thirds tuning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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