how important is it to sound "modern"?

[mastodonovan]

Hi everybody, in the aebersold's ii-V7-I work book, he talks about how important it is to copy current players articulation and feel. Now where I live in Detroit, it seems like every one is trying to sound like Wes, Grant Green, or Benson. Currently I"m transcribing Green's "Idle Moments" it is much friendlier then the Joe Pass record I was trying to work out haha. Anyways, what is your take on this?

[mr. beaumont]

When did Aebersold write that?

I depends on what you want to do, really. If you want to hang in NYC and gig with the young guns, my guess is this is pretty darn good advice.

[Bill C]

tell your own story, not the story you think you should tell

[mastodonovan]

Thank you Mr.B and Bill C for your responses, I dig what you're saying about telling your own story, I guess I'm just trying to get good and it seems like the easiest way is to imitate the guys who are until I've got my shit together. Mr.B that helps to put it in perspective. The book I read that in is volume 3 the ii V7 I chord progression, a new approach to jazz improvisation. 'strive for smoothness and clean articulation on everything you play no matter what the pattern of tempo. It is particularly important to listen to current jazz players and copy their articulation and phrasing" I don't know when this was released. A friend sent it to me in pdf format. Have either of you used anything like this to get ii V I's down in all keys?

[Jonathan0996]

That Aebersold book was probably written in the 1960s, but it's still good advice if you aspire to be a modern player. Not everybody does, and that's ok too. But Mr. B. is right (as usual) when he says that you'd better be ready to play modern if you wanna hang with the young lions of NYC. Be ready to play All the Things You Are in seven.

That said, I think developing players need to deal with bebop before they get to any of that. You've got to acquire the vocabulary of jazz before you can take on the subtleties of modern harmony and improvisation in a compelling way. Some would say you've got to go back further than bebop, but I think bebop will do. Then take on the post-bop stuff (Wes, Benson, et al). Then the modern stuff.

To my ears, the guys who go straight to playing modern without paying any of those dues lack the substance that a better rounded musician has. They lack the breadth of the jazz vocabulary to draw on when they really need to dig deep. Your mileage may vary, but that's the way I hear it.

[mastodonovan]

Thank you Johnathon for your response, where do you start with bebop?

[mastodonovan]

I"m sure I could just do a search, sorry for the dumb question. Thank all for your replies.

[dinot]

Swing feel and articulations depend on the style of the music you are playing (it may even be different for each song in the same setlist), the era, the arranger/composer wish, the lead trumpet's direction (in the case of a big band), etc.
So you may want to learn the different types of swing feel.
It's funny, but Christian has a pretty modern swing feel if you ask me, it's very straight.

[newsense]

'strive for smoothness and clean articulation on everything you play no matter what the pattern of tempo.

This sounds like pretty good advice independent of the era of the players you wish to emulate ! I think Wes, Jim Hall, Scofield, or Lage would all agree.

[dinot]

Yeah, but it's a little weird to say it that way. I think what mastodonovan meant is being clean and clear when you play, instead of having a blurry playing.
Articulation is a deep topic, specially when it involves winds instruments.
For instance, the bebop articulation is just that... for bebop playing. Of course you can play it anywhere you want, but it doesn't mean you HAVE to play always like that... not even if you play a wind instrument.

[MarkRhodes]

tell your own story, not the story you think you should tell

That's great advice, and I say that as a guitar player and as a writer!

[Guitarzen]

It depends on whether you are playing just for your own enjoyment, or to make a living at it. If you want to make a living at it, you have to pay attention to whats hot & what's not. All the great jazz artists that had successful careers did.

[mastodonovan]

Well making a living at it is definitely my ultimate goal, I haven't heard to many of the current fellows, but I've heard Julian Lage and I like what he's doing, and I really like what Lage Lund is doing.

[JakeAcci]

Well making a living at it is definitely my ultimate goal, I haven't heard to many of the current fellows, but I've heard Julian Lage and I like what he's doing, and I really like what Lage Lund is doing.

Let me just be the first of many to tell you that very, very, very few people make a living from just playing jazz guitar.

Some get by playing other styles + teaching guitar, and even that is rare.

But very few people make their living just from playing jazz guitar.

[vsaumarez]

Follow mostly what you like, not always what you feel you should play. You've got a better chance at been good at something you enjoy, than something you don't.

[oldsouth]

There are many great modern jazz musicians, so I don't mean to criticize them in any way. But, one has to notice that the jazz audience grows smaller each year. Is that because the tastes of the public change and have diverged from the direction of modern musicians.... or is it because modern musicians no longer play music that is accessible to the majority of the public (regardless of taste and knowledge)? I don't know. I play a lot of standards and big band type music and everyone seems to like it. But, I'm not a pro and I certainly don't live in a city that fosters professional musicians ($75 bucks a night is the best one can get around here... so I have a day job). I always just say, play what you like and hope others will like it as well... if not, still, just play what you like.

[dinot]

Jazz was popular when it was made for dancing and radio play, and the lyrics sucked.

[jtizzle]

I'm pretty vocal on my opinions about this type of thing. Jazz is and always has been about sounding modern or hip.
Even back in the day, in the 40s, people were trying to sound like bird because he was the shit as far as contemporary went for them. But they weren't trying to sound like Scott Joplin, who was active before the 1920s.
I do admit that guys like Wes, Grant Green, Joe Pass, ect are still to this day great players (as dead as they are). But us musicians playing in the year 2013 shouldn't be trying to sound like them.
There's nothing wrong with playing straight ahead. Look at Peter Bernstein, who's almost the Grant Green of today. He's just gone as far as to play tea for two in 5, in the same groove as Take Five. Nothing REALLY modern about that, but his phrasing and choice of notes is as modern as it gets. Or even Jim Hall, who was alive and playing in the 60s and before that. He's modernized his sound quite well regardless of aging or whatever. He's kept up with the time.
I just feel like every musician should be trying to do something new, not trying to be a copy of someone. That's how I define being modern. The more new things you're coming up with, the more modern you sound. And it's not about copying guys like Rosenwinkel or Kreisberg, because playing exactly like them will also just make you sound like a copy, not modern. Just do something new and different.
But that definitely doesn't mean you should skip the learning steps. As modern as you want to sound, you still gotta know your standards, and be able to play them. And if you have to sound modern over ATTYA, then by all means do so.

So yeah, I think sounding modern is as important as it gets in jazz. That's why the greats are great.

[kofblz]

I feel no responsibility to try and "sound modern" or blaze any new jazz trail, thank god. That's partially because of where I am on the learning curve, but also because I've never really liked modern jazz. It's enough for me to just sound like I know what I'm doing with trad standards and to play them the way I hear 'em.

I thought bebop was modern.

[Bill C]

What really intrigues me is when a musician sounds completely contemporary and totally "in the tradition" at the same time. Will Vinson is a great example of this.

[fep]

For me there is a question of how accomplished you are.

I think if you don't learn your instrument really well you're not in a good position to do your own thing. If you can't navigate your way through traditional changes in a solid and beautiful way, do you really have the skill to play in a modern and outside way? I don't see how you could.

Learn the fundamentals first in the traditional way.

[redwater]

I would say: You got to go where your heart says go!

Even in NY some young guns play the more traditional stuff AND make a Living.

Music (Jazz) could be seen as a Tree. The Tree has its Roots, and then there is a Stem and then the Branches and smaller branches and some leafs. BUT the Tree grows.

For me it worked best to study some Players of every Era of Music. From the Root to the Leafs.
If you don´t know what happened in Harlem in the 40s you have a weaker Root.

[Guitarzen]

Let me just be the first of many to tell you that very, very, very few people make a living from just playing jazz guitar.Some get by playing other styles + teaching guitar, and even that is rare.But very few people make their living just from playing jazz guitar.

This is true.

Thank you Johnathon for your response, where do you start with bebop?

If you are asking newbie questions like this, you are so far from being in the zone where making a living is even a remote possibility, that you'd be better off planning a different career. There are many players that are extremely skilled at playing jazz and cannot make a living at it, and it might take you 10-20 years just to equal their skills.

Even in NY some young guns play the more traditional stuff AND make a Living.

Are you so sure about that? Making a living means able to pay down a mortage, have full medical insurance for your family, and be able to put away enough money for retirement. It's worth noting here that when you are self employed, you do not have an employer covering your medical insurance or contributing to your retirement fund, it's all on you. I seriously doubt the validity of your statement. I do know guys who are able to rent an apartment and eat, just from playing music, but not "make a living" by what we traditionally consider that to mean.

[Stevebol]

When did Aebersold write that?

I depends on what you want to do, really. If you want to hang in NYC and gig with the young guns, my guess is this is pretty darn good advice.

NYC is really diverse when it comes to jazz. It used to be anyway. My teacher from the 70's was from NY. He loved jazz but had to learn classical first so he combined them. It was weird because he told me right away that I was going to play with a pick. I thought, you don't so what's up with that? Took me a long time to figure that out. Then he tells me to listen to all these players that he didn't play like at all. That actually made sense.

[cosmic gumbo]

Sometimes I want to hear the Catfish Strut played like it was yesterday, and sometimes I want to hear it played like it's the 21st century.