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Hey guys, so I'm starting out learning some jazz and theory stuff, and I was wondering...do you guys recommend memorizing every note on the fretboard? I have thought about it, and in some ways it might be better just knowing scale and chord forms and positions, that way if you change to, say, half-step down tuning, you can still apply everything in the same way. I dunno...I mean I can definitely see how knowing where every single note is on the fretboard would have its obvious advantages too. What do you say?
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10-20-2012 12:59 PM
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Absolutely learn where the notes are. It's not that difficult - there are only 12 of them, and there are only 6 strings.
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If you want to play jazz, it's absolutely crucial, imho.
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By all means yes!
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Memorizing the whole fretboard might be a bit much to swallow all at once. I think it's reasonable to learn it in pieces. I'd suggest learning to read with Leavitt's Modern Method. You'll learn a position at a time, by the time you're finished you'll know the whole fretboard.
As an aside, you do need to know the 6th and 5th strings just to get by when you are reading chord charts. I guess that should be done right away. And if you know the 6th string then you know the 1st string too.
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Ok, and I imagine it would be best to start with just the naturals, right? And then the "gaps" can be filled by whatever key your in. I'm already getting a system down, pretty much have both E strings down, and the A string is coming along nicely. But yeah, what would you guys recommend about the whole "flat/sharp" thing?
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I can't claim to know anything about Jazz, but I can offer a starting point with regards to fretboard knowledge, though my answer will have a "blues" twist.
Originally Posted by Jbeckforever
Let's say we start playing a blues in E (E maj). So we'll be playing E, A and B7.
That's a I, IV, V chord progression (1st chord of Emaj, 4th chord of Emaj, and 5th chord) which is E, A and B7.
Then you meet someone and they want to play a blues in B flat (for whatever reason), what chords will you play?
This is one option:
B flat is on the sixth fret of the sixth string, so you move up and bar the sixth fret, and play the same chord forms (or chord shapes). Now without working it out or looking it up, I don't know what actual chords I'm playing, but I do know that I'm playing the I, IV, and V chords in the key of B flat.
What's more, from knowing only the root, I know that on the same fret of the next string up (6th fret of the 5th string) is the fourth note in the key of B flat, which is the root of the IV chord, and two frets up from that (8th fret of the 5th string) is 5th note in B flat which is the root of the V chord.
So you've now got your 1st, 4th and 5th notes in the key, from which you can orientate yourself to find the other notes if you need to solo.
So I'd say the first step would be to learn the notes on the 6th string, then the 5th.
I realize that maybe the more advanced guitarists/musicians may not like these short cuts, but that's one way to start.
Another, which is what brought me to this forum, is to learn to read music.
Michael
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Learn where all the natural notes it help simplify the task. Also just learning note positions doesn't do a lot to help remember it you need to apply it. Read heads of tunes, read notation in guitar books, not tab you'll probably find better fingerings that way. It's use that makes it stick and open the fretboard to moving around without being locking into a position. Also from talking to book authors many have said they don't create the tab for their book it's done by the publisher which would explain so really awkward fingering I seen in some books.
What helped me learn the fretboard (FB) was when playing bass told to play C major scales on one string till I had it nail ascending and descending, then moving on to next string and next. That will teach you all the natural notes on the FB. Then learn to play C major scales using two strings. That really make you understand how major scale is constructed. Those seemly simple exercises teach FB, major scale theory, finger-shifting technique, and ear training. After you master this 3 octave scales and arpeggios will be a snap because you don't need a finger pattern you can work it out as your play your will know the theory and FB well enough.Last edited by docbop; 10-20-2012 at 01:43 PM.
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You need to know the fretboard fully---at least as far up the neck as you intend to play---but you need not learn it all at once. Bite off manageable chunks, chew thoroughly, swallow, breathe, take another bite...
One exercise that's helped me in this was to play triads (1-3-5) or a easy four-note cell (1-2-3-5) beginning on low E at the 12th fret. Say the root out loud but nothing else. (If you want to announce the other notes, call them 'third' or 'fifth'). So you work down the neck on two strings (the low E and A.) You can do this away from the guitar too, visualizing it. (I do this while drifting off to sleep.)
That is the easy exercise. The next one gets you through the cycle in a narrow range. Start on G at the 3rd fret, low E. Next is C on the A string, then F on the D string, Bb on the G string, and Eb on the B string. Remember, play the triad (or four-note cell) and only call out the root. Eb is played on the 4th fret of the B string and the next note in the cycle is Ab, which brings you back to the low E. You move up and down the strings and along the neck. (I usually stop on the C note on the B string at the 13th fret.)
You'll know the notes much better after a few weeks of this. It will also come in handy when you play standards and need to move chords in a cycle (such F-, Bb-, Eb9, AbMjr, DbMjr and so on).
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I think it's a non negotiable to know the fb IMO. You wouldnt contemplate learning say a clarinet any other way. Yet we often compromise this - to our detriment - on the guitar because of its pattern system. The way I finally got it was by playing major scales up and down the strings - one note per string and one finger. E.g. C on 8 position E string then D on 5th position A string etc. So all at different pitches. Then work through a different sequence of strings but same scale. Then jump around strings randomly doing the scale. All the time consciously knowing what note you are playing. Play a simple tune in the same way one note per string. Do it in your head away from the guitar. It's tortuous to start then gets easier![CHORD]
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as said before....break it into say 4 sections first...
frets 1-4...5-8...9-12...
using the four fingers of the left hand 1,2,3,4...frets 1-2-3-4...all six strings for a week....memorize the notes by letter name....
next week frets 5-6-7-8...all six strings for a week...as above...do this for 5-10 min before you do anything else...
time on the instrument..pierre
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I learned the notes on the neck when I learned my drop 2 and drop 3 voicings.
I took for example major 7th drop 2 chords on the 4321 string groups(these are the easiest to start with) and played all inversions of C major 7th up the neck and down again. I located the root of each chord shape. Then I did the same for F major 7th and all the way through the cycle of 4ths.
When you have done this with drop 2's and drop 3's for major 7th, minor 7th, dominant 7th and minor 7thb5 on all string groups, you'll know the fretboard AND all the most important chords.
When you practice smart like this, you actually practice something you will use and learn the neck as a bonus instead of just locating the notes by themselves and not learning anything musical.
Do the same for your major scales. C major scale, find all the C's on the low e string and play the scale from there. Then locate all the C's on the A string and play the scale. Do this on all strings, and for all keys.
I did hours of exercises like that when I was starting out and as a result, I always know what note is on the fret my finger is on and which chords can be built around it.
It is work, but that's the only way to learn it.
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I have been lazy about this over the years. I know the fretboard "pretty good" but I have holes where I have to think too much about it. I just got my new issue of Guitar Player magazne, the Holiday 2012 issue with Earl Slick on the cover, and there is an article by Jesse Gress called Shapes of things 10 things you gotta know about the fingerboard. I haven't gotten heavily into it yet but it looks like it is really going to help me.
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Here's another tip:
Pick one note, e.g. C, and learn to see that note in everywhere on the neck. When you got that one, move on to another. There's only twelve notes so eventually you'll get there.
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Make an effort to learn all the basic notes on the 5th and 6th strings, excluding accidentals, so you can have a basic "picture" of what notes are where without thinking too much about it. This'll allow you to sight read chord charts and use octaves to figure out every other note on the fretboard!
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This is a great thread. Here's a great way to learn the neck and make it fun and meaningful. First, take Kalebima's advise. Learn all the notes on strings 5 and 6. Very important. Now, learn your major scales using only four adjacent frets. As an example, learn the Gmajor scale by starting with your second finger in the third fret. Play this scale up the neck in all keys until your comfortable and have it well memorized. Now, learn the EbMajor scale by starting with your fourth finger on the fifth string, 6th fret. Play this scale up and down the neck until it's well memorized.
Once you have this to memory, it's time to tackle a tune. Start off with an easy tune you're familiar with. Let's say, "Hear's That Rainy Day". It's in the key fo G. This tune has some sharps and flats. It will make you think. That's good. Experiment with other tunes. You'll be surprized how that neck will become familiar quickly. The best thing it's fun.
Hope this helps.
Randy
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That method is why so many guitar players ten years later still don't know the names of the notes on the D, G, and B string. Just have to take the time to learn the notes because if you're serious about improv your going to need to know it so you can do voice leading, targeting notes, know where your guide tones are, where are the color tones to add to chords and on and on and on. Originally Posted by Kalebima
Same with learning to spell your chords, its all about laying a solid foundation.
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The way I do is to draw a note on a grid. Lets say I pick the A note one day, first I draw all the A notes on the grid, then I play all of them. next day I pick another note. I find this works for me.
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I copied some of one of my previous posts... It gets into what fingering system I start with... I'm always aware of what note(s) I'm playing, although most of the time I don't think about... It's become internal, I don't need to physically think C, Eb etc... but at any moment I could.
If I wanted to I could Mechanically be aware of note names because of my fretboard awareness through my Fingering system. The entire neck is mechanically tied together through the fingering system logically, at least for me.... It works well and has for years. I don't need to watch my fretboard to play or be aware of what note I'm playing... There are other systems...
***unfortunately you will only become as good as your fingering system will let you. Any fault or problem in your fingering system will be magnified, cause breakdowns and create walls later. It's more important than most think....
Anyway here is part of my previous post...
So there are levels of playing as well as levels of harmony/theory approaches... your level of physical skills and your level of understanding what your playing.
1) I'll start with fingerings... methods of organizing your fingers with all aspects of playing... I have a base fingering system or my default starting point.
2) Through that fingering system, I'll get into scales, arpeggios etc...
3) Chords, how I comp...
4) I use the same methods or systems of organization... "reference, relationships and development" for almost all aspects of my playing.
5) I'll have to get into forms, rhythmic concepts and what reading and playing jazz charts is... not simply what's notated.
There are more skills and we can get into them as they come up...
My harmonic/theory approaches are simple, use of Modal interchange, use of Blue notes harmonically, Modal concept approaches and use of Melodic minor non-functionally. There's actually more... but it's very standard.
An example... I'm soloing over Gmaj7 to Cmaj7...
My starting point is diatonic... Ima7 to IVma7...
Next relationship could be... Function relationships or function subs;
Gmaj7... access to VI-7, then III-7
Cmaj7... access to II-7, then VI-7
Now I have choice of developing those subs, through modal interchange, blue notes, MM etc... lots of choices.
Or I can introduce more subs through different methods... tri-tone, approach, sub of subs, Related IIs or Vs... implied or deceptive relationships for sources of subs. Other reharms etc... and then start developing through my basic jazz tools for developing relationships...
Every note I play represents a complete harmonic structure... On that Gmaj7... if I play 8th note line... starting on 2nd string 7th fret... F#, G, 1st String, 7th fret... B. 2nd string... 8th fret...G, F#
F# G B G F#. Harmony or what each note implies harmonically could be, F#ma9, Gmaj9, B-7, F9, E-9 all for that original Gmaj7 chord... with those notes as lead line...
X 10 7 7 7 X
X 11 8 8 8 X
7 X 7 7 7 7
X 8 7 8 8 X
X 7 5 7 7 X
Anyway this aspect of my playing, how I approach, will if nothing else help you understand how you play... everyone will get something out of it. But I do need to start at basics.. with out a solid mechanical method of fingering and understandings of what your playing...you'll hit walls when tempos get up.
1) Fingerings... I'm a position player, I base all my fingerings or how I see and hear and get out what I hear from positions. (1st finger determines position).
I use different fingerings to help imply different styles. Same notes played in one position have a jazz feel, while when played with a different fingering will sound like rock, blues etc...
I base all my fingerings off 6th string roots and use 2nd finger for those roots...which creates all 1st finger stretches. This is my starting point of reference... My mechanical method of feeling and not having to look at the neck to hear or see where I am. It works well for me.
My reasoning was... my 2nd finger is the strongest, and my 1st finger has the most mobility... which lead to 2nd finger as base and 1st finger for stretches.
There are other fingering... 1st finger, and 4th finger based and some 3rd, 4th finger stretches or combinations of 1st and 4th, hybrids and special purpose etc... I do use many of those. But they are all used in reference to my 2nd finger base starting point.
Everything I do and play in music has a beginning, a starting point, a reference. From there I have methods of using, creating and developing relationships. This doesn't mean I always go through the process of relating to the beginning... I've trained myself... and my instincts, I trust them. My reactions even when spontaneous are really somewhat organized.
So I'll go through and make examples and charts of fingerings and make short video of hand positions etc... maybe wait on the vid for better material.
I somewhat use the same mechanical system for comping...
I use root 6 or 6th string root chords along with Root 5 and root 4. I also see and can use root 3 chords but not much. Those are my starting points... references for voicings and harmonic development.
I usually just voice my lead line, the top note, or have line going on in bass notes. All with reference to my position and what approach I'm using, same with soloing... I don't simple hear a line and play it. I hear the line in context with a harmonic approach. Just as you hear a melodic line or chord progression. What harmonic approach(es) I'm also hearing have influence on the melodic line or chords I'm referencing and developing.
This fingering and mechanical references may be a little boring at first, at least I hope so, but my approaches for actually comping and soloing won't be boring. They will help you understand different systems of playing the same collection notes with different implications.
Best Reg Attached Thumbnails
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As the majority of posts say, you really have to learn all the notes on the fretboard if you're going to allow you're playing to flourish. I tend to visualise the fretboard in terms of scales. The best place to start is the C major scale. Learn it in different parts of the fretboard. Use any method fot memorising as you like. When I was learning I tended to try and visualise the fretboard when I'd be walking along the street...still do in fact. Clever trick to add to this is try and sing the notes you are visualising, helps keep it musical and a bit more interesting NB mind watch out for the traffic
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For my experience there are three steps in learning the notes on the fingerboard.
1st step: Learning the "shape" of C7 one octave arpeggio. Starting fron the 5th string, 3rd fret.
2nd step: Learning the intervals. The first note that you are playing is the Root, then you are playing the 3rd, 5th, b7th.
3rd step: Learning the notes. The Root is C, the 3rd is E, 5th-G, b7th-Bb.
These three steps need time to master. You can simply start by memorizing the shape, then you memorize the intervals and finally you learn the notes.
This process will not work for everyone. I just share my experience.
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I've posted on this subject many times... maybe this vision will help
I always have a reference... you can call it a single note tonal reference, harmonic... whatever, you can call it magic, divinity... even if your unaware of what your playing.... I'm always aware...I always have a reference and so should you.
So to explain this reference verbally... take that reference note, melody, chord... whatever your playing, hearing or seeing on the neck of your guitar... and have the ability to impose a template or position scale pattern over that note, chord or whatever your playing...in whatever position your playing from... (hopefully not staring at your neck, but to start OK).
Obviously that position scalular template can change at any moment and more than one are usually going on at the same time, but I like the ability to verbally explain what I'm playing. Somewhat after the fact...
So if your a melody improver ... you can easily see and explain harmonically or melodically what your melodic sources are... not just the notes your playing. That template which you can drop on your neck... From low to high string and 2 to 2 1/2 octaves anywhere your playing.
The rest are simple... almost mechanical...you might even begin to see and hear logical choices reflective of different system or styles of playing...soloing.
The point isn't to see as arpeggio's, scales or how ever you choose to hear, play or talk about.... The point is to train yourself and have the notes on your neck become internalized.... the next step would be to take this concept to become your entire neck... one big picture, sound template.... however or whatever you need or want...
Generally in music you have....the reference, then the relationship(s)... then development.
Don't get hung up on scales, arpeggios, any organized collection of the notes.... eventually you will hear and understand them all. But generally how you learn your fretboard will influence how and what you play... just be aware.
Reg
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In one of Matt W's lessons about learning tunes, he made it a point to learn the melody in many ways, vertically and horizontally:
1. On each of the 6 strings individually;
2. As Pierre mentioned above, in the 3 sectors: (a) 1-4; (b) 5-8; (c) 9-12.
That not only helped me cement knowledge of a tune, but the collateral effects of fingerboard awareness was pretty cool, too.
Also, my teacher had a very good lesson on the critical idea of LEFT hand finger independence; using the concept of 4 fret coverage correlating to the 4 fingers, with the 1st and 4th finger being able to go up and down the FB 1 additional fret. The idea is that being locked to a particular fingering should be avoided--one can play a line/scale starting on any finger, provided the 1st and 4th fingers can stretch accordingly. That also helped with understanding the FB. The goal is to never be lost on the FB, regardless if one goes across the FB or up/down the FB and not to be encumbered by or tied to specific fingerings.
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What I've noticed over the years... when a guitarist doesn't have a base or beginning fingering reference... they get lost and hit walls. Without a method of connecting the entire neck together... to become one pattern.... you'll develop small unconnected fingerings from tunes or whatever method you practice.
Be careful...Anything or any method will work to a point... but if you want to get to a technical level of being able to play jazz at typical jazz tempos... does the system your practicing work beyond practice.
I believe you should be locked into a beginning fingering system. That doesn't mean you always have to use that fingering, but you'll always have a reference to relate other fingerings to.
Learning melodies in many different fingerings is cool... but your not going to learn many tunes... and generally as I said you develop a bunch of unconnected fingerings... and your technique will reflect that. No chops, your articulations will be what your fingerings make you play... Being able to start on any finger... still needs to have a reference to a base fingering system.
What is your base fingering system?
Reg
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