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Your progress sounds great.
Originally Posted by chancho
As far as "being careful over the A7", make sure that you don't leave the C# out of your lines totally. That 3rd is a very important note. You can still play on a C Maj scale, just substitute the C# for a C natural. (You'll change that later too)
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11-10-2012 05:16 PM
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Mickey Baker's chord books are excellent! That's how I started. Great choice!!
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Hey,
Ben here, from Germany with my first post. I've been playing guitar for 10 years now - mainly blues/rock/pop in different bands - and want to learn some jazz. Found this forum a couple of weeks back and found this thread on a search for a good method book. Been practising since and finished the 6th lesson + read through the whole thread and learned a lot so far. Thanks to all the knowledgable forumites, especially Michael Joyce for a lot of good tipps + the homepage.
Just a few questions - first, what's the thing with the 2h rule? Is it something MB came up with, cause I can't find it in my copy. I also find that I absorb some lessons much faster while others need that time, depending on the songs and chords I already know. I think it's more of a rough guideline for beginning-medium guitarists while others get the most out of the book in less time.
Second, contrary to some posters I think that there are a lot of great videos and studiorecordings of MB but not necessarily with a typical jazz tone (smooth, clean, neck-hb...). He pioneered much of the way guitar was done in early R&B and rock and is considered one of the busiest sessionplayers of the 50s. He was an inovator rather than a traditionalist and is also rated one of the top 100 guitarists in the rolling stone magazine.
One thing I found out that helps me in my learning process is to alternate between a lesson in the book and learning a tune out of my realbook (chords + melody). I can apply the things I learned and it's great to find that my fingers and ears really benefit from the lessons.
Thanks again everybody, will keep up to date with this thread as I work my way through that great little book.
Ben
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Kurt Cobain was Number 6 if I remember correctly.He was an inovator rather than a traditionalist and is also rated one of the top 100 guitarists in the rolling stone magazine.
but +1 for Mickey Baker
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Well, not that it should divert this thread, but sadly Mickey Baker left us a few days ago at age 87. May his two books live on forever. Play on Mickey.
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Gentle Guitarist,
This is my first post here, and also nearly my first post anywhere, so please forgive my violations of protocol and etiquette. I've recently started guitar lessons, and am using the Mickey Baker Vol 1 to get my chords vocabulary started.
As part of my practice protocol, I have programmed the chord changes in Lessons 2, 3, 4, and 9 into Band-in-a-Box, and try follow along, starting very slowly and gradually increasing tempo as I gain comfort in changing chords.
In practicing Lessons 3 and 4, I wonder if the progressions shown there are generic, or if they are possible arrangements of real tunes. Does anyone know? And if so, are there guides to the other progressions in the book. Doing the changes is enjoyable, especially when I get the chords right, but I think it would be more fun if I had a melody going on in my head as I played.
Thanks.
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RIP Mickey
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@MikeMajor7th - Welcome to the jazzguitar.be forums. It's a very friendly (and at times, highly opinionated) group of folks. Do not let the occasional spirited discussion scare you off, there is a lot of good information to be found here. I think it's the best site of it's kind.
As no one has given you a reply in a few days, I'll ty to remember what I can from working through the book and IIRC, the changes are not based on any particular tunes, but are typical of what you would find in a standard. Again, I am at work and this is my recollection. Certainly, if I am incorrect, someone will jump in and let me know. I'll try to remember to take a look at it this week-end.
One thing you could do, if you were of a mind to, is to use something like the "Vanillabook" site to program in some tunes that you know and use Mickey's chord grips on them as a adjunct to your studies. Just a thought. Or download the "RealBook for BIAB" and use that right off (it can be found on various sites).
Good luck with your study and have fun on the forums.
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What a great idea! I didn't know about the Vanilla book when I worked through Mickey's book. Originally Posted by ah.clem
Here's a link, for those who don't already have it bookmarked:
The Vanilla Book
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Hi Mike, Originally Posted by MikeMajor7th
I started a project of recording the Mickey Baker exercises that stalled out (dang full time job). Check out post #36 where I do just what you are suggesting, I use the Mickey Baker chords for Autumn Leaves. Also check post #27 where I take the liberty of adding some chords that "Mickey should have included" (you'll need some of those for Autumn leaves as Mickey doesn't include any m7b5 chords).
Mickey Baker Course 1 - mp3s and videos
Cheers,
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Dear FEP,
Many thanks, and thanks for leading me to other threads. The "MB Course 1, MP3's and Videos" thread appears to be very informative. "Autumn Leaves" is a favorite, and I'll look forward to working on it.
Best regards,
Mike
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Hi, new here!
I have a question bout lesson 13. Mickey is talking about vamps. He is wrinting one chord progression and then four different ways to play this progression.
The first two bars are |C Gdim| Dmi G7|
Im a little bit confused about how to look at this. Is this a 1-5-2-5 progression or a 1-2-5?
Mickey is either substituting the Gdim with another C or he is substituting it with the relative minor(Ami).
Dont know if I am making myself understood here but Im confused about how Michey uses the dim chord and how he substitutes it.
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Hi there this may be one thought about the chord progression you mention.
I would view it as a variation of a 1 6 2 5 progression. My interpretation of the Gdim chord would be that it is functioning as an altered 6 chord (Dominant to the Dm) If you look at the notes of the G dim (G Bb C#) in terms of an A7 it outlines the b7th b9th and the 3rd of that dominant chord. As you know altering a dominant with tensions before it resolves down a fith (or up a 4th) will produce the required feeling of tension and release.
There may be other views on this but that's how I came to view it.
Hope that helps the MB book has been and still is my favourite jazz tutor book, I've been through it many times and never fail to gain inspiration or learn something new when revisiting it. You've picked a handsome publication to help you on your journey.
Best wishes
Chris
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Yes, Chris is right. Think A7b9 - it has the notes G Csharp E Bflat. When played on a guitar at these frets:
5x5656
...the top four notes look, smell and taste like a dim7 chord. So we treat it as if it IS a dim7 chord. As you might know, any note of a dim7 chord can be called the root, hence MB calling it G dim. You can move this chord up or down three frets, if you like, and you'll always end up with the same chord. But try not to forget that we are only pretending it is a dim7 chord - it's really the top four notes of the A7b9 chord.
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Gdim = C#dim
in which case you can look at it as a rising chromatic progression from C to Dmin (which is implicit in the 1-6-2-5). Just another way of looking at things.
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Thanks for the answers!
About this:
How do you know if a 6 chord i is functioning as a 6 chord or a 1 chord then being the relative minor? (in C) Can a Amin7 be a 6chord or does the 6chord always have to be a dominant chord? Originally Posted by Cabbycabbage
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It doesn't have to be a dominant chord. Any minor chord in a key can be temporarily made major. Even the ii7 chord can become a II7. It can just help give a little push to the next chord.
Have a listen to that great pop song, "Sitting On The Dock Of The Bay". It's in the key of G, but every chord is turned into Major: G B C A x2 Then G E x2. Simple but effective.
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I'm pursuing Mickey Baker Book 1 again. I would like to use TablEdit. What do I use to open the .tef files?
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Lesson #14: | G6 / C#dim7 / | Cmaj7 / C#dim7 / | G6 / C#dim7 / | Cmaj7 / C#dim7 / | G6 / G13...
What is the function of the C#dim7? More importantly, how do I understand it so I can remember it and use it in other places?
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Hi Frank,
I believe you're talking about the 3rd and 4th exercises of Lesson 14. I'm sure you, like me, have been frustrated by the possibilities of analyzing chords. My personal take on this is that Mickey is taking a number of chord forms that the majority of notes will move chromatically, and he starts the movement on the chord that he ends it with. In this case it's a G6.
In your question, you have G6 to C#dim7 to C Maj7. I believe you meant to use a C6 (form 3).
Mickey's introduced 4 new chord forms in this lesson and his form 28, a 6 or as he refers to it a ma6 is actually a 1st inversion E min triad (E-G-B with G in the bass). As a G6 it's lacking the D, but our ears actually hear the D as it is a 2nd harmonic of the G bass note. Instead of playing the G on the 5th string, try playing a D on the 6th string, 10th fret. Now we have a 2nd inversion G6 with all 4 notes, right? Ok, move that form to the C# dim7. Note that the G and E on the 2nd and 3rd strings stay put, but the D moves down to C# and the B on the 4th string moves to Bb on the 8th fret. Now move to the C6 (form 3). Note that the G (2nd string) and E (3rd string) remain in place, and the C# moves down to C, and the Bb moves down to A. Then he moves back ending on the G6.
So I believe he's just filling measures of G harmony with a logical (and smooth) chord movement involving chromatic movement. Now perhaps you could say the the C#dim7 is a passing chord to make the I to IV progression smoother.
Below I've tried to notate it and "scrunched" it into 1 measure. Another version of that "progression", using different inversions can be added to that to really be interesting (2nd measure):
Try a G6 with a barre on the 5th fret giving you an E (2nd string) an a G (4th string), a B on the 6th string, 7th fret, and a D on the 3rd string, 7th fret. That's a 1st inversion G6. Now move the B to Bb and the D to C#(or Db). That's another C#dim7. Now raise the fingers on the 6th and 3rd strings and you have a 3rd inversion C6 (or most of us will call it a root position A min7, right)
Mickey talks about parallel movement in his Volume 2. Also, compare that Exercise 3 with Exercise 2 of the same lesson. In the first two measures, he's holding a G note and moving the others up or down the fretboard. IMO, it's the same concept.
I hope this helps, Frank. What do you think?
Best regards,
Mike
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Yes Mike, C6 not Cmaj7 (I didn't have my book with me when I posted from work
)
Great stuff, I like your analysis and that second example illustrates the parrallell movement really well.
I had also noted the common tones of G and E and had come up with my own thought on this, similar to yours with a slight addition.
There is a blues cliche:
3x343x G7
x2323x G9
x3535x C7
x4535x C#dim7 (connected the bass notes from C7 to G)
x5543x G
x6564x Eb7
x5453x D7
4x454x Ab7
3x343x G7
Here the C#dim7 acts as a passing chord between the IV and the I in second inversion and continues the chromatic bass line of B C C# D.
My take away is a dim7 chord can connect the IV and the second inversion I with a chromatic bass line. Or, in more general terms, a dim7 chord can often be used to connect and 'fill in the cracks' of two chords whose bass notes are a M2 apart.
And if it works going up, then why not also moving downwards.
This is pretty powerful when you think of using inversions, it works for so many chords, such as:
x5756x Dm7 (root position)
x6757x D#dim7
x7558x Cmaj (1st inversion)Last edited by fep; 05-28-2014 at 01:24 PM. Reason: Some oops... V s/b I
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Hi Frank,
First of all, it's really nice to meet you. I really like your comment "filling in the cracks". I could have worked on that for a year and not come up with anything that good!!!
Yes, dim7 chords are generally used as either passing chords or as a dominant substitutions (usually called V7b9 without a root). In the notes I've written for the website, I mention that musicians other than guitarists call this chord a "doubly diminished 7, because it has two tri-tones or dim 5th intervals. And they think of a chord with just "dim" added as a diminished triad (like a vii chord in a Major scale). If they take that dim. triad and add the naturally occurring 7th to it, they called it a half dim.7 and some even write it with the degree symbol with a diagonal slash through it. We guitarists mostly seem to like to call it a min7b5.
In addition to passing chords, here's how to find the dominant chord the dim7 subs for. A simple chord building exercise is to take any 4-note diminished 7 chord form and move any note 1 fret lower or flat. We have then a 4 note dominant 7th chord form. So that one dim 7 form can substitute for any of those seemingly unrelated dominant 7th forms.
Now if we take that same dim 7 form, and raise any note in it by 1 fret or sharpen the note, we have a half dim7 or min7b5 chord form. Likewise that one dim7 form is related to 4 seemingly unrelated min7b5 chords.
I remember as a little kid, with a ukulele chord book discovering a diminished 7 chord. I thought to myself "why would anyone want to use such a strange sounding chord?" And now, maybe like you, I can't live without it!
You can really have a lot of fun with Mickey's course, can't you?
BTW, going back to the post on Mickey's Lesson 14. Also, you can actually play that G6 - C#dim7 - C6 movement with the G held on the 6th string (Mickey's form 3 G6) to the C#dim7 but with a G in the bass, and the C6 as I mentioned with the bass note on the 6th string (modified form 28). I'll bet some folks reading this will think "when does it ever stop?"
Have a great day, Frank
Mike
Best regards,
Mike
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Hi Mike,
The 'filling in the cracks' is a term I learned from a guitar teacher, Bill Thrasher, circa 1978. I'll see if I can dig up the sheet/lesson where he uses the term and post it here. He's using it for a different type of example and it's brilliant.
Cheers
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I love Mickey's book and this thread. I see I still have much to learn from both.
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Greetings and thanks all for the posts in this topic. I started taking Jazz lessons in May and my instructtor is using the MB book. I have copies of both 1 and 2 and am pretty far into book one. Biggest problem for me has been the lessons titled "Blues solo". Having a hard time here because the solos do not sound like blues that I am accustomed to. Makes it hard to hear the melody over any kind of chord pattern. Too many years of playing standard 145 variations may have tainted the learning sponge. The other problem for me is the up coming lesson where MB leaves a measure blank and asks the student to fill in. I am missing something here because I just don't have anything to put there. I'm drawing blanks. I know we are supposed to put in a "run" of some type but being as I really do not understand what makes up a run I'm kind of left standing on the fill-ins.
Any ideas as to what am I missing.
Al B.
aged RnR plunker.
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