The Problem of Practice Bloat

[Jonzo]

Consider that a practice exercise is followed by “do this in all 15 keys” or “do this starting from all four fingers” or “do this in all possible root positions”. Each variable increases the amount of work geometrically.

Now consider that each skill must be maintained. So, over time the amount of material that needs to be reviewed also increases geometrically.

Further consider that the subject of Jazz is infinite.

Finally, consider that the time that each of us has in each day is finite.

The main problem in learning jazz is one of opportunity cost. There are an infinite number of “good things” to practice, but eventually they start superseding other good things.

How have you managed this without your head exploding?

[jtizzle]

Taking it slow. With a month of working scales tediously, you'll have it down, at this moment you can shift your focus onto something else and review scales once a week or even with more time in between.

[cosmic gumbo]

How have you managed this without your head exploding?

Who says it hasn't?

[mr. beaumont]

Apply everything to musical situations, know five things well instead of fifty half-assed.

[JohnoL]

Consider that a practice exercise is followed by “do this in all 15 keys” or “do this starting from all four fingers” or “do this in all possible root positions”. Each variable increases the amount of work geometrically.

And that is just for standard tuning. Then you must do the same for all of the open tunings also.

[JakeAcci]

You have to focus on what is the most important to you as an individual. It's completely about prioritizing.

It's not finding what's good or important, but figuring out what is the MOST important for you at this time.

I'm a fan of practicing a few hours a day and picking no more than three things to work on at a time.

[jtizzle]

And that is just for standard tuning. Then you must do the same for all of the open tunings also.

Also the "drop" tunings. If you're a true musician you gotta go as low as Drop F#. That's with a 6 string.
Then you gotta do 7 strings, 8 strings.

Eventually you wanna get to a 42 string pikasso guitar.

If you can't do that, the jazz gods will be ashamed of you.

[coolvinny]

I find that if I really take the time to learn something well, then I don't forget it. This is even more true if I learn something by ear. Whether it's a tune, an entire solo, a lick, whatever...if I really learned it well, then I've still got it. Literally a 30 second refresher will bring it back under my fingers.

Anyways, there is no magic formula. I sort of follow what Jake suggested below which is to only work on a few things per day. Sometimes it's just one thing, other days it's as many as 5 or 6. Sometimes it's just one thing for days on end! I keep a practice journal to keep myself honest and to make sure my 'practice diet' makes sense.

[Jonzo]

Some people have given responses about the values that they use to limit choices, but I am really more interested in real world examples. Which limited group of chords, fingerings, techniques, etc. did you chose to perfect early on, and why?

[mr. beaumont]

It's tough.. to prioritize...I always felt it was best to give yourself several options and go withroll with what makes the most sense at that moment...something that you can apply musically right away...I think the more i do that the wider the pool of info that makes sense gets...

[jtizzle]

Some people have given responses about the values that they use to limit choices, but I am really more interested in real world examples. Which limited group of chords, fingerings, techniques, etc. did you chose to perfect early on, and why?

A huge mistake I did was to actually focus on one aspect of each part of my playing.

Major harmony (and it's modes) and root form chords.

These two things I learned so well, that I now overuse and I'm having so much trouble getting out of them. I recently started working on restructuring my playing in order to get out of this rut, and I'm having huge problems, pretty close to information overload.

I feel that as a beginner, as tough and horrible as it sounds, you need to practice everything. But giving focus to one thing at a time.
Weird, I know.

But say, month one, you practice major scales (and modes) every day for an hour or two. You'll have that down, next month you practice melodic minor (and modes) for an hour or two a day, spend a half hour after that reviewing your major stuff. Same with the other stuff. Practice root chords for a month, then go on to 1st inversion chords, and dedicate a half hour to continuing your root form stuff.

Of course, maybe a month won't be enough, or a month will be too much. You have to know how much time to put into something without over-practicing (yes, there is such a thing as over-practicing something). The easiest way to grow as a guitarist is to grow with the freedom to not get stuck with something.

[jasonc]

I agree with Jeff that you need to do things in a musical context. I've never been big on "excercises". My classical guitar professor used to always say "All of the technique you need is in the repertoire.". For example, if you aren't very good at finger independence then play some Bach. You will get better at moving your fingers independently because the music requires it. But you will be working on music and not some abstract finger wiggling excercise.

Split your practicing up in sections. Fundamentals: scales, chord inversions etc. Tunes: pick a couple of tunes a week and just learn to play the head as written and play the basic chords Vocab: Learn a solo or a lick then play it over changes trying to vary it a little bit every time. etc...

One quick thing about chords....try not to learn "grips" but rather learn to build the chords. This is something that Frank Vignola told me to do years ago and I am so glad I did it. Take any chord you know then learn each inversion of that chord by moving each indvidual voice up. So if you take the C Maj 7 voicing with the root on the 5th string you have root, 5th, 7th, 3rd. Now move each voice up to the next inversion so now your root moves up to become the 3rd, the 5th moves to the 7th, and the 7th moves up to the root, and the 3rd moves up to the 5th. Keep doing it until you've done every inversion on that string set and continue on to different string sets. I hope that helps some.

[colski]

“do this in all 15 keys”

15? AAGGHH

[Jonzo]

I agree with Jeff that you need to do things in a musical context. I've never been big on "excercises". My classical guitar professor used to always say "All of the technique you need is in the repertoire.". For example, if you aren't very good at finger independence then play some Bach. You will get better at moving your fingers independently because the music requires it. But you will be working on music and not some abstract finger wiggling excercise.

Split your practicing up in sections. Fundamentals: scales, chord inversions etc. Tunes: pick a couple of tunes a week and just learn to play the head as written and play the basic chords Vocab: Learn a solo or a lick then play it over changes trying to vary it a little bit every time. etc...

One quick thing about chords....try not to learn "grips" but rather learn to build the chords. This is something that Frank Vignola told me to do years ago and I am so glad I did it. Take any chord you know then learn each inversion of that chord by moving each indvidual voice up. So if you take the C Maj 7 voicing with the root on the 5th string you have root, 5th, 7th, 3rd. Now move each voice up to the next inversion so now your root moves up to become the 3rd, the 5th moves to the 7th, and the 7th moves up to the root, and the 3rd moves up to the 5th. Keep doing it until you've done every inversion on that string set and continue on to different string sets. I hope that helps some.

You kind of contradict yourself with "it's all in the music" and "scales, chord inversions, etc." Is this because jazz is different than classical?

[MarkRhodes]

[quote=jasonc;249405 My classical guitar professor used to always say "All of the technique you need is in the repertoire."[/quote]

Great line! I'm going to write that at the top of my practice log!

[coolvinny]

Some people have given responses about the values that they use to limit choices, but I am really more interested in real world examples. Which limited group of chords, fingerings, techniques, etc. did you chose to perfect early on, and why?

This post in particular reveals to me that you would greatly benefit from some one-on-one lessons with a local jazz pro. Save yourself some frustration and take a few lessons.

[jasonc]

You kind of contradict yourself with "it's all in the music" and "scales, chord inversions, etc." Is this because jazz is different than classical?

How is that a contradiction? A chord is something I play all the time in tunes (I will occasionally employ more than one chord per song. ). Inverting a chord while I'm comping is something a lot of people do while playing a tune. I play scales when I play tunes. When I mean excercises I mean stuff that has no direct musical application. Stuff like playing first finger (1) then your second finger (2) change strings and do it again. Like 1,2,1,2, then 3,4,3,4 etc...I just don't get that kind of stuff. A stand-alone non musical excercise to get your fingers moving is ridiculous because you could just play some counterpoint and get your fingers moving with the added benefit of actually playing a piece of music. You know? The one great thing about classical is that practicing it is very cut and dry. You can't play this passage? Then you slow it down and take it measure by measure until you can. Jazz isn't as clear cut but it still boils down to working on problem areas.

[jasonc]

Great line! I'm going to write that at the top of my practice log!

You can have it gratis. It really makes a lot of sense.

[mr. beaumont]

After thinking about it, the amount of knowledge needed to start playing jazz tunes is pretty small.

I think people get bogged down by all the immensity when they start thinking of new material as "stuff they have to learn before they play." Truth is, you can cover the first 40 years of jazz about (including a lot of the classics beginners and experienced players enjoy alike) with some basic stuff...but you gotta really know it...I've talked about 12 essential chord shapes...I'm pretty sure Reg talked about the same ones...you learn those and start learning heads and you can play tunes...then everything else has an actual CONTEXT.

I've talked about these things before, actually...

Chords and how to build them all over the neck, and arpeggios that go with each.

A good working knowledge of major scale harmony


You can go pretty far with that. Everything else is gravy. But gravy is delicious and you want some, trust me.

[Jonzo]

How is that a contradiction? A chord is something I play all the time in tunes (I will occasionally employ more than one chord per song. ). Inverting a chord while I'm comping is something a lot of people do while playing a tune. I play scales when I play tunes. When I mean excercises I mean stuff that has no direct musical application. Stuff like playing first finger (1) then your second finger (2) change strings and do it again. Like 1,2,1,2, then 3,4,3,4 etc...I just don't get that kind of stuff. A stand-alone non musical excercise to get your fingers moving is ridiculous because you could just play some counterpoint and get your fingers moving with the added benefit of actually playing a piece of music. You know? The one great thing about classical is that practicing it is very cut and dry. You can't play this passage? Then you slow it down and take it measure by measure until you can. Jazz isn't as clear cut but it still boils down to working on problem areas.

I see what you mean now.

[coolvinny]

How is that a contradiction? A chord is something I play all the time in tunes (I will occasionally employ more than one chord per song. ). Inverting a chord while I'm comping is something a lot of people do while playing a tune. I play scales when I play tunes. When I mean excercises I mean stuff that has no direct musical application. Stuff like playing first finger (1) then your second finger (2) change strings and do it again. Like 1,2,1,2, then 3,4,3,4 etc...I just don't get that kind of stuff. A stand-alone non musical excercise to get your fingers moving is ridiculous because you could just play some counterpoint and get your fingers moving with the added benefit of actually playing a piece of music. You know? The one great thing about classical is that practicing it is very cut and dry. You can't play this passage? Then you slow it down and take it measure by measure until you can. Jazz isn't as clear cut but it still boils down to working on problem areas.

But even some of those totally un-musical exercises (like 1234, 2341, 3412, etc, or various more difficult, multi-string, string-skipping, ascending/descending variations) are useful when you're working on something really specific, like keeping the pinky finger under control or getting comfortable with 'economy picking' (or alternate picking, if that's your thing). The key is to avoid overdoing it. Maybe spend 5 - 10 minutes on this stuff if it's directed at a problem area, no more. Once you've fixed the problem, then you can forget about it.

[Jonzo]

When you say the technique is in the repertoire, it confuses me. Improvisation is about making choices. If you don't know you scales, chords, and arpeggios, how is the repertoire going to provide you with technique?

[Jonathan0996]

I agree with Jeff. If you practice nothing but abstract things in all 12 keys, you're head will explode. Or you'll just get so bored that you'll give up playing.

What you're trying to do is play music, not scales, not quartal chords, not arpeggios. Yeah, it's useful to spend some time working these things out, but playing tunes is what you're trying to get to. If you're not playing tunes every day and constantly developing your repertoire, I think you're cheating yourself.

If you spend less time on technical stuff and more time on music, it gets a lot more interesting -- and I think it gets more productive too. You can't ignore that stuff altogether, but knowing every scale in multiple positions in every key isn't a prerequisite to playing tunes. I think getting to know a handful of tunes deeply will teach you more than a year of playing scales.

[Jonzo]

I have been thinking lately that the "practice sheet" method might be the best approach for learning jazz for the beginner with limited time. Chose a tune and
Play the melody
Play the roots of each chord
Play the roots and thirds
Play the thirds and sevenths
Play the arpeggios
Play the scales best suited to the chord

This is from Berg's Book. I suppose us guitar players would play the chords too.

After doing the above, improvise on the tune.

If you really wanted a minimalist routine, this would make a pretty good year of study. Yes?

I suppose one would start doing this in one fingering position, and then add others as one gained efficiency.

[pingu]

practice bloat ?
don't practice !
take time out and just play some tunes ............