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I signed in tonight to ask this question and found the following thread:
Transcribe No More! (by Mel Bay)
I am wondering how you go about doing this, transcribing. Do you actually sit with a pencil and paper and write the notes on the grand staff? Do you write the notes such as Ab C,C#? Do you learn the material and then write it down?
Just curious, since I am ALMOST ready to start trying this.
Thanks for any tips you can give me.
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08-18-2012 10:29 PM
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I've only written out one full solo, of about 3 I've fully transcribed. Wes' Unit 7.
I sometimes write out bits and pieces like choruses I transcribe. I did a chorus of Grant Green's All The Things You Are, Coltrane on Giant Steps, Wes Four On Six, Lage Lund ATTYA, and maybe 5 or 6 more I can't remember.
Then I've transcribed a bunch of things that I haven't written down. Some Dexter Gordon solos, Jim Hall, Kurt Rosenwinkel, Ect.
I usually don't like writing anything more than 8 bars. I tend to write out more licks than anything, I mainly write down licks in a few keys, so I get the hang of what it contains. I have a book just for licks and things of the sort where I take a page (of 12 staves) and write down either scales or licks in all twelve keys, so I can visualize what's inside of it. Usually under the first key I write it down in, I write down the interval numbers in relationship to the scale (like r, 3, 5, b7, b9 or whatever it is). To see it better and what it functions as. I also have a small companion notebook, or put it on the side, what the lick can be played over (like, does it have multiple uses, or what it outlines, or what sort of things it can function as).
Really useful, helps with learning licks.
Anyways, your question.
I define transcribing as just learning a solo by ear. Doesn't matter if I write it out or not. I think most of the value comes from the ear training and hearing what the soloist is doing and imitating it.
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I don't always really transcribe...i usually just write things down if the line i'm copping is too long to remember...and if i don't understand why a line works by playing it, i definitely write it down.
I grab some staff paper and a pencil...i usually don't worry too much about getting tbe timing exact...i just figure out what fits in each bar and try to get the pitches right..
To me, the listening and hearing are the most beneficial.
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I write it out bit by bit. Typically I'll do the melody and a solo from one tune, then move on to another tune. And I'm slow as molasses -- it takes about 6 weeks currently. (I don't do this everyday).
I try to get about 10-15 seconds of notes each time and I write it down in Tab form, then later copy it into standard notation -- but like Mr. B, I don't bother much with rhythm values. That I get by listening to the record repeatedly and trying to match the phrasing.
I start a session by reviewing what I've got on a tune. And finishing the writing doesn't mean the tune is done. I still go back and re-play parts.
What I've gotten from this so far, is to get great musicians' language under my fingers. It opens doors. I can't necessarily connect it to the chords, but more what I get is just the kind of lines you can play, and the rhythm.
And BTW, if it's fast playing, I transfer a recording to my computer and some software allows me to slow it way down.
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For assimilating something into my playing I think this seems most direct:
Listen repeatedly
Try to be able to sing the segment in question
See if you can figure out the notes just by listening and singing
Find a way to play it on the guitar.
Writing down is helpful for analysis.
The point is to internalize the piece of music in question, not to get it on paper as fast as possible.
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Adding, I also think as much attention should be paid to rhythm, dynamics, timbre, spacing, note duration, etc. as is to pitches
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Jake, if you can sing the part in question, haven't you already internalized the phrasing? What does spending the extra time getting things right on paper rhythmically get you, other than an archived lick (which could be valuable in and of itself)
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I think you might have misunderstood. I was saying to figure it all out, and that putting it on paper is helpful for analysis as an additional step. I wrote "attention paid" to those other elements besides pitch, but attention paid doesn't necessarily mean writing it down. In fact, I think it's more important to be able to sing/play the rhythms than write them down.
I guess more specifically, when listening and trying to 'get' the line, I think it's important to pay attention to all of those elements, rather than just the pitches, but it doesn't have to be on paper. Writing it down is an additional step that is useful in some ways and not directly useful in some other ways, in my opinion.
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Yeah, i got you..i wasn't really disagreeing, just looking to see your thought process.
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My method is very similar to Jake's.
(1) Burn the solo onto a CD maybe 50 times.
(2) Pop that CD into your car and listen to nothing but that solo for a week or more...all the while singing along with it. Don't stop until you can sing the whole thing exactly as the original musician played it.
(3) Now learn to play it on your guitar. Don't worry about positions, fingering, etc. Just be able to play it exactly as it was originally played. For faster solo this can take quite a bit of effort.
(4) After you've got it down on the guitar, put pen to paper and notate the solo. Write down the chords that underlie the solo as well.
(5) Now comes the hard work. Go through the solo and write down the relation of the solo's notes to the underlying chord. Analyze the hell out of interesting sections/runs/etc. and see if you can make sense of what the player is doing. Do you see a descending bebop scale? Enclosures? H-W diminished scale being used? Is the player outlining the chords, or going outside? etc... In every single solo I've transcribed (a few dozen to date), I always end up being surprised by something.
(6) Take 2 or 3 or 4 of the best phrases of that solo, extract them (put 'em on paper), and learn to play them in all keys, in every area of the fretboard.
I've done it the "other" way - learning bits and pieces of a solo, and writing as I go - but those snippets get forgotten. It's when I do an entire solo and then extract and work on pieces that I end up assimilating those licks and they become part of my playing.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Word, well, I guess to answer your Q more directly Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I think that spending the time to write the rhythm out if helpful for analysis. It's possible to see some rhythmic schemes or concepts being used that may have alluded your ears. A lot of folks use some fairly mathematical concepts in the rhythms of their solos and sometimes seeing those things on paper can make them make more sense (or less, depending on how your brain works, heh.)
There are other analytical aspects that might be easier to perceive on paper, like which beats the phrases ended and started on, how much space was in the phrase, how long was it exactly.
All THAT being said, I definitely now have the opinion that it's much better to really have in your head before you have it on the guitar, and it's better to have it on the guitar before you put it on paper.
I just feel that the stronger the connection you have between sounds you've heard and execution on the guitar, the better you will be at improvising with intention. Putting stuff on paper strengthens the connection between sounds you've heard and written music, which is also valuable, but for the performing improviser, obviously playing is the most important. Or something.
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Many decades ago, I sat in front of a turntable with my guitar in hand and learned things by rote.
A few decades ago, I sat with a cassette recorder, pencil, and manuscript paper and transcribed.
In recent years, I sit at a PC with both Sibelius and Transcribe open and I notate (say, 2 to 4 bars at a time) into Sibelius as I go.
We have great tools, now, for doing this!
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I transcribe one chorus at a time. I make it a point to be able to play it back along with the soloist so that I know I am spot on. By this time the chorus is completely memorized, so I am able to sing it while comping the chords. Then I move on to the next chorus.
For intense rhythmic solos, I have found that writing it out is very beneficial to me. It helps my reading of rhythms immensely.
I always pick solos apart and analyze them on the spot. I finger it in every position I can think of, staying out of my comfort zone so that I am seeing it in its entirety everywhere on the neck.
Once that is done I start playing it in different keys, especially ones I need to work on more. Once I am comfortable with it, I start pulling out small phrases and use them for motif. I take my time when internalizing lines I really like, so that I may be able to use them meaningfully, on the fly using different fragments.
There is nothing more satisfying than to take the masters ideas and make them your own. This has been the most effective tool I have found to learn vocabulary.
Time Well Spent: My First Jazz Guitar Transcription - Fretterverse.com
Very satisfying indeed.
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for all of your suggestions. I will begin trying this. I am back to playing in church so my Jazz studies will have take a back seat again. It is interesting because i started studying Jazz to improve my church playing and it has worked well. There are lots of extended chords, passing chords and tones involved in Gospel music that I could not even hear until I started studying Jazz.
The church culture that I am involved in actually frowns on written music so I have developed the ability to use my ears to play what i think it should be. However, I have never learned to play things exactly as the original. This has benefits and drawbacks. I will now try to apply what you folks have so generously explained to both genres.
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2bop - I find working on reading rhythms and being aware of all possible subdivisions makes accurate rhythmic transcription easier. I think the more consciousness one has of how different rhythms sound, feel to play, and look on paper, well, the better they would be at connecting all three.
I spent a few years working primarily on rhythm...it was very helpful and I think really brought my musicianship to a completely new level.
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Thanks man, glad you dug it! Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
I love my J6 as well...Great axe for the $ at the time...
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Also throw out there what I've heard Victor Wooten talk about in interviews and how he transcribed things when learning and over the years would go back and start fixing and refining the transcription because his ears and musical knowledge has grown.
So for those having trouble do the best you can, you can refine later. The process of transcribing is the main teacher.
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I use a program called Transcribe! Seventh String Software - the home of Transcribe! and have for years. Does everything you could possibly need it to do to help you transcribe, including harmonic analysis (it can tell you the notes in chords). To write the notes down I use Sibelius - the best notation program, in my opinion. I loop or slow down small segments of the recording, write it down immediately. I transcribe with guitar in hand. I just feel my ear and fingers are faster than just my ear and brain alone at finding the notes. It's totally possible to transcribe by just using your ear and identifying intervals, which is how I had to do it when we had dictation tests in college. While I'm notating it, I will also try to figure out the best fingering. This probably makes my transcribing process much slower than it needs to be. But I kind of like how I do it, because by the time I finish writing it down, I simultaneously know how to play it at that point. I absolutely need it in written form because there is no way I can remember every single solo I have ever transcribed in addition to all my solo guitar pieces, without being able to occasionally glance at the sheet music.
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Yes, that suits my logic to a "t." Originally Posted by JakeAcci
Rhythm is still my weakest link in the musical chain...well, guess I need to stop procrastinating and get busy with it. Thanks all for the input!
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There's a lot of different approaches to transcribing; whole solos memorized and played along with, licks extracted and written down, etc, etc. What all these approaches have in common is that you're working toward something, playing lines like Wes, comping like Ed Bickert, figuring out what to play over Giant Steps. So it's easy for the actual work of transcribing to get lost in the shuffle.
Transcribing is a skill like any other, it can be practiced and improved. If it's a real struggle to cop the solos you dig, maybe take a step back and try something simpler. Pay attention to what the challenges are, hearing pitches, notating rhythms. This is where a good quality published transcription book can come in handy. Work on your own, then correct and learn from your mistakes. Software like Transcribe is a vast improvement over the little Marantz tape player I started with, but give things a shot in real time before resorting to half speed. It won't happen overnight, but eventually you can be copping whole phrases in real time rather than struggling note to note.
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I think the thing that is important is what is done with the transcription. A lot of people pull stuff from albums or remember some lines and figure them out, the stuff might show up in there playing for a week or so and disappears. So they got a riff(s) and the riff might return if the right situation happens again. So the end result was like the old saying "someone gave you a fish and you ate for a day".
If you transcribe something and analyze it, what chord was it used against, or what chord was it implying, rhythm used, what notes are falling on what beats, and so on. Then the transcription becomes a recipe or formula that can be applied to other chords, situations, and so on. Or as the old saying goes "teach a person to fish you feed them for life."
Now the first scenario sometimes turns into the second if a player really likes a riff they will analyze it so they can "make it their own".
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It's in pursuit of that "formula" that's always driven me to transcribe. Although, transcription for jazz piano can be a daunting task, for inevitably there are a lot more note combinations being played than are on jazz guitar. Still, I've acquired countless transcribed voicing combinations that I'd not discovered otherwise. Originally Posted by docbop
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What's the old Zen saying..... The journey is the reward. Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
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