Some advice on M.Baker books, and BIAB.

[Mikejaycox]

I'm going to be entering my freshman year as a music major in a few weeks, and i guess i can't explain how excited i am. I took entry level music classes for a year at the college to get ready for the audition, it was worth the hard work. Reading music and finally understanding some theory has made me appreciate playing much more.

In school, the lessons are heavy sometimes. In the way that through music school, you are already given plenty of work. I want to really accomplish alot. I am shooting to get into the jazz band( My teacher has been preparing me, i am getting confident that i may be ready) and was wondering if i working through Mickey bakers jazz book would be great on the side of my school work. I hear the book is generally more useful when knocking out 1 lesson a week, so maybe i'd shoot for that. Anyone else really like this book ?

Also, Band in a Box for practicing, yes ? I only have so many people to jam with at the moment, that number will increase throughout school, but since i am new to jazz, would this be a very solid investment?

Sorry for a heavy post, i can clear things up if need be.

[loydb]

BIAB == greatest practice tool ever IMO.

[fep]

I think Mickey Baker and BIAB is a great idea for preparing you for a big band.

Biab is a great tool for someone in your situation (and my situation also).

For pros and those that gig a lot or play with others a lot, BIAB isn't necessary or nearly as useful. I think that is why some of the really accomplished players aren't that excited about it.

But when you are first starting, BIAB is great for getting you to play in time and play the changes whether you're comping or soloing.

In BIAB, you can set up loops of the Mickey Baker exercises, mute the BIAB guitar part, and add your own part. You can record your part too and listen to the play back for instant self-critique/evaluation.

BTW, BIAB with Real Tracks is vastly superior to BIAB with just the MIDI.

[Ozymandias]

Band in a Box is a great practice tool, but if you just want tracks to jam along with iReal B may be all you need and it's a fraction of the price. I have both (although my BIAB is a few years out of date now) and I never use BIAB now. BIAB will do lots of stuff that iReal B won't, but I never used those features anyway.

[Mikejaycox]

I actually have iRealB for my ipod, and yes it is a great price and a great tool, but i didn't really like the sound coming from it, and wanted something i could do ALOT more with.

Hey Fep, are you in music school ? If so, what year ? Also, to record on BIAB do you need an interface? I have one so if all i need is BIAB and an interface, i am all set. BIAB sounds great, so i think i will get that AND the Mickey Baker book. His book sounds really structured, like Modern method by Leavitt. I am almost half way through that book and absolutely love it.

[fep]

I actually have iRealB for my ipod, and yes it is a great price and a great tool, but i didn't really like the sound coming from it, and wanted something i could do ALOT more with.

Hey Fep, are you in music school ? If so, what year ? Also, to record on BIAB do you need an interface? I have one so if all i need is BIAB and an interface, i am all set. BIAB sounds great, so i think i will get that AND the Mickey Baker book. His book sounds really structured, like Modern method by Leavitt. I am almost half way through that book and absolutely love it.

Hi Mike,

I did two years in music school at a community college in jazz performance.

BIAB is good for me because I think my biggest weakness is soloing in time over changes with a band and I don't get enough opportunity to play with others.

All you need is an interface to record with BIAB.

I just did a demo. Go to this link and look inside, this demo in from the Mickey Baker book, page 4 ex. 5. The backing track is doing the 'Standard' progression, I'm playing the 'New' progression. I've attached the backing track at the bottom of this thread.

http://www.amazon.com/Mickey-Bakers-...+guitar+book+1

[JohnRoss]

Is jazz going to be that important a part of the course? BIAB is great, but to be honest, I'd have thought there was more important software for a music major to have. I expect you'll be studying theory, counterpoint and such (if not actual arranging or even composition), aural, history of music, and so on, and I can't see BIAB being very helpful for any of that. Wouldn't a good score-based app like Finale or Sibelius be more useful? Of course, if you've any change left when you've bought your basic groceries...

[fep]

Is jazz going to be that important a part of the course? BIAB is great, but to be honest, I'd have thought there was more important software for a music major to have. I expect you'll be studying theory, counterpoint and such (if not actual arranging or even composition), aural, history of music, and so on, and I can't see BIAB being very helpful for any of that. Wouldn't a good score-based app like Finale or Sibelius be more useful? Of course, if you've any change left when you've bought your basic groceries...

BIAB would be real useful for a jazz performance major, especially for some one auditioning for the big band. Given that they are still getting up to speed on stuff like the Mickey Baker course.

Notation software is real handy for a music major as John points out. I'm a big fan of MuseScore which is free.

I also have top of the product line of Sibelius which was real expensive and real good. But MuseScore is real good too. I'd like that money back and would give Sibelius back if I could.

[Mikejaycox]

Hey fep, i really enjoyed the music from that video.

Also guys, i want the extra programs and such to help speed up work and get my hands on more stuff. There is a chance i'll get some more software through school, and i know i'll be arranging and composing throughout my college career(I'm a freshman remember) so i will probably get plenty of benefit from BIAB. I will look into notation software, is that to save me from having to write out all my music or... ? Also, i am living at home from now, got lucky and had an awesome community college music program right form home for now.

[Mikejaycox]

Alright, thanks for all that. I will deffinitely find musescore soon!

I will be buying BIAB and the baker book for sure though, i want to dive right in.

[Earl]

I think Mickey Baker and BIAB is a great idea for preparing you for a big band.

Biab is a great tool for someone in your situation (and my situation also).

For pros and those that gig a lot or play with others a lot, BIAB isn't necessary or nearly as useful. I think that is why some of the really accomplished players aren't that excited about it.

But when you are first starting, BIAB is great for getting you to play in time and play the changes whether you're comping or soloing.

In BIAB, you can set up loops of the Mickey Baker exercises, mute the BIAB guitar part, and add your own part. You can record your part too and listen to the play back for instant self-critique/evaluation.

BTW, BIAB with Real Tracks is vastly superior to BIAB with just the MIDI.

What are symetric exercises as taught by Mickey Baker?

[Kojo27]

Band in a Box can do amazing things, and it can be fun just in itself. An amazing achievement in music education, all that: I have nothing bad to say about biab itself.

It concerns me very much, though, that players (esp. new players) are using BIAB for "all their backup needs," while their rhythm/comping practice goes neglected.

For many of us, IMO, comping is 80% or more of the job, and for me, anyway, comping well is NOT EASY and can require many hours of practice to the click of a metronome, at all tempos. Good comping is about tone, finesse, chord knowledge, smooth changing, all that.

I aspire to comp my own backup tracks whenever possible -- and make them at least fifteen minutes long. It seems to me that if we record ourselves - just the guitar and a metronome - and keep at it until our comping sounds good enough to be on a CD recording with [Great Guitarist] -- then we've done something. I'm not there yet - but the goal is a good one, I think. If I almost always use BIAB, and don't listen back to my own guitar, I suspect I won't make my goal.

Just a thought.

[Kojo27]

I forgot to add: to the OP, if you're serious about big band comping, familiarize yourself with the playing of Freddie Green, who comped his whole life long with Count Basie. He defined the style.

To learn this style, in case you don't already know, there are some books you might want to grab NOW, as it appears they might be on the wane.

Amazon.com: Swing and Big Band Guitar: Four-To-The Bar Comping in the Style of Freddie Green (0073999951479): Charlton Johnson: Books

AND,

only 1 left at Amazon, w/some used copies:

Amazon.com: Rhythm Guitar the Ranger Doug Way (9781574242041): Ranger Doug: Books

=============

Also, as others have pointed out, do make extensive use of the Mickey Baker book. However, the chord voicings he presents are not the best for big band or Gypsy or swing comping, IMO. They're too big, too clumsy for smooth, fast changing. But study his "chord sequences" until blue in face. The first book above goes into great detail about all this, but Baker gives a good encapsulation to get you started.

Van

[fep]

Band in a Box can do amazing things, and it can be fun just in itself. An amazing achievement in music education, all that: I have nothing bad to say about biab itself.

It concerns me very much, though, that players (esp. new players) are using BIAB for "all their backup needs," while their rhythm/comping practice goes neglected.

For many of us, IMO, comping is 80% or more of the job, and for me, anyway, comping well is NOT EASY and can require many hours of practice to the click of a metronome, at all tempos. Good comping is about tone, finesse, chord knowledge, smooth changing, all that.

I aspire to comp my own backup tracks whenever possible -- and make them at least fifteen minutes long. It seems to me that if we record ourselves - just the guitar and a metronome - and keep at it until our comping sounds good enough to be on a CD recording with [Great Guitarist] -- then we've done something. I'm not there yet - but the goal is a good one, I think. If I almost always use BIAB, and don't listen back to my own guitar, I suspect I won't make my goal.

Just a thought.

Hi Van Jazz,

BIAB can be a great tool to practice comping.

I'm a real frequent recorder. Seldom does a week go buy that I don't record something (sometimes I might make as meany as ten recordings in a week). I really enjoy recording which is a big reason I do it so much but my 'official' reason is the extra focus and the feedback that recording provides is a real benefit to my practice. At least that is what I think.

Frequently while using band in a box, I'll mute the guitar part (and sometimes the piano part also) and record my own comping. Then I'll play the melody or do solo over that.

Also, sometimes I'll let BIAB play a soloist and comp over that, like I did on that recording several posts above this one.

[JohnRoss]

For many of us, IMO, comping is 80% or more of the job, and for me, anyway, comping well is NOT EASY and can require many hours of practice to the click of a metronome, at all tempos. Good comping is about tone, finesse, chord knowledge, smooth changing, all that.

Years ago I was in the habit of practising with a rhythm box, until a teacher pointed out to me that I was not good enough at following a metronome. The thing is, a rhythm box (or BIAB) gives you too many clues, it's too easy to follow, instead of synching with it or even leading it. The same can happen in a performance situation - usually, the guitarist can rely on the drummer and bassist to provide the pulse, but not always, sometimes it's up to you. You have to have that pulse internalized and 100% reliable, which you need to do, as you say, by hours and hours of metronome work. I actually turn the click off too, because that's easy to follow as well, and sync with just the flashing light instead. And I try and practise running slightly ahead of the beat or dragging it a bit, as well as being exactly on it. Set it to be a minim, or follow it as one TWO three FOUR (next project is just FOUR).

And BIAB makes it unnecessary for you to state the harmony as categorically as you sometimes have to when you're comping. Horn men need that support from the guitarist, especially with a double bass instead of an electric bass, a double bass is too muffled a sound for most horn players to follow when they're soloing. And in the same way as a rhythm box stops you internalizing the pulse, I suspect BIAB must be at least something of an impediment to internalizing harmonies. Which probably won't matter much until the day the clarinet says, my lip's a bit sore, can we do Cherokee a bit lower, how about Eb for a change? and you have to transpose on the fly.

[Kojo27]

Hi Van Jazz,

BIAB can be a great tool to practice comping.

Frequently while using band in a box, I'll mute the guitar part (and sometimes the piano part also) and record my own comping. Then I'll play the melody or do solo over that.

Also, sometimes I'll let BIAB play a soloist and comp over that, like I did on that recording several posts above this one.

Hey fep,

Sorry I'm late in getting back here.

I agree -- as long as we spend a fair amount of time listening to the chunk or stab of the guitar, with just a metronome going. Playing is really ALL about listening, when you get right down to it, I think. BIAB makes this close listening really hard. I'd even say do it acoustically.

If you can record just your guitar signal, leaving out 100% of BIAB, that would be interesting to listen back to.

Just a thought or two. (I have biab, also.)

[Kojo27]

...usually, the guitarist can rely on the drummer and bassist to provide the pulse, but not always, sometimes it's up to you. You have to have that pulse internalized and 100% reliable, which you need to do, as you say, by hours and hours of metronome work.

One of the online metronomes, can't recall which, lets you turn off, say, click 2 and 3, in bar 2, every two bars. Or it will play 4 clicks and go silent for 4, so you have to come back in exactly at tempo and on the beat. You can leave out as many notes or entire bars as you wish - a cool tool.

[fep]

Van Jazz,

I like the lesson in this video. I've been using the metronome as described in this video for a couple of years. At least this part - 1st 4 clicks per measure, then 2 clicks per measure, then 1 click per measure.

[JohnRoss]

Or it will play 4 clicks and go silent for 4, so you have to come back in exactly at tempo and on the beat. You can leave out as many notes or entire bars as you wish - a cool tool.

Nice. Anyone remember that game on the British radio comedy "I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue," where the contestant had to sing along to a record which they faded out and brought it in again after half a minute or so, the contestant being judged on his sync with the record?

[Jonathan0996]

Lots of good points have been made here, and while BIAB is a great tool, I think it's counterproductive to overrely on it. As others have alluded to, it's easy to get comfortable with a set of changes and a groove on BIAB and just kind of mindlessly flow with it. What you probably need at this point is very focused practice time, so beware of lazy habits.

BIAB is cool, but you need to be able to hear the changes in your head as you improvise through them. BIAB can help you confirm that you're on the right track, but you should be able to hear it in your head and improvise through the changes without backing tracks.

You also need to focus on comping and solo guitar stuff, and that's not to be neglected. Playing the melody on a looper and then working on comping is another great way to develop your overall musicianship.

So I guess my advice is to use BIAB judiciously, and balance it with other kinds of practice. Good luck in your studies, and I hope you kick some butt in jazz band.

[Kojo27]

Van Jazz,

I like the lesson in this video. I've been using the metronome as described in this video for a couple of years. At least this part - 1st 4 clicks per measure, then 2 clicks per measure, then 1 click per measure.

Good idea! I'll try to do some of that. // Victor Wooten's "Groove Workshop" DVD is well worth the money. The guy is amazing, and a great teacher - a rare combination.

A couple years ago I got a "Dr. Beat" metronome; here's a quick pic link:



This thing, too, is worth the price. Does incredible stuff, which I won't try to list. Warning: the prices vary wildly from web store to web store. I went straight to Amazon and paid $187 for it, thinking the price couldn't be much different elsewhere. Then, a week or so later, I found them on eBay for $129. Other sites had them for $149. Some charged $209. My only gripe with the metronome is that they could have made it a little better with an aluminum casing, instead of this rattly plastic. It feels cheap, but it does awesome stuff, and I've dropped it a dozen times, no harm. Buy the adapter while you're at it - batteries go REAL fast in this thing. (Has MIDI, works as a practice amp/monitor [w/headphones], drum machine, rhythm trainer... so cool.)

[Kojo27]

Nice. Anyone remember that game on the British radio comedy "I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue," where the contestant had to sing along to a record which they faded out and brought it in again after half a minute or so, the contestant being judged on his sync with the record?

Don't know of that one, John. Sounds fun, though. I might try that shortly, test myself. Ha.

Playing the melody on a looper and then working on comping is another great way to develop your overall musicianship.

Hmm - great idea, so simple, but I'd never thought of doing that. Thanks, Jonathan.

[Dad3353]

We've just had a letter from a Mrs Trellis, in Wales, who writes...

"Dear Prudence...
There is more than one way to swing a cat.
Yours truly, Mrs Trellis."

...but I shan't bore you with that, here.

[fep]

For me it's much, much easier to play with a metronome than with BIAB. The static click of a metronome gives you so much more freedom, both with your rhythm and your harmonic material. Also, you really don't have much issue of losing and then having to find your place with a metronome.

With BIAB, you have to fit in with the groove (you all realize the RealTracks in BIAB are real studio musicians making real recordings). You also have to listen and make your lines fit the chord progressions. If you lose your place (you shouldn't watch the screen) you have to use your ear and knowledge of the tune to find your place. You have to play more within the lines.

I don't think there is any comparison, BIAB is much superior to a metronome and will improve your playing quicker. It's just a much closer simulation of playing with a live band

Even using a looper, which I also do, you play to your own groove, your own way of feeling time. There is a drawback to that also.

________________________

I just was just thinking that we're missing something here.

What is the most fun...

To me that's pretty important.

(Actually, the most fun for me is the freedom of playing solo, but that's off topic.)

_________________________

The only person I've heard play on this thread is JohnRoss. I which you all would post video recordings to demonstrate what you are saying and show how well it's worked for you. Otherwise it's just talk.

[Kojo27]

For me it's much, much easier to play with a metronome than with BIAB. The static click of a metronome gives you so much more freedom, both with your rhythm and your harmonic material. Also, you really don't have much issue of losing and then having to find your place with a metronome.

With BIAB, you have to fit in with the groove (you all realize the RealTracks in BIAB are real studio musicians making real recordings). You also have to listen and make your lines fit the chord progressions. If you lose your place (you shouldn't watch the screen) you have to use your ear and knowledge of the tune to find your place. You have to play more within the lines.

I don't think there is any comparison, BIAB is much superior to a metronome and will improve your playing quicker. It's just a much closer simulation of playing with a live band

Even using a looper, which I also do, you play to your own groove, your own way of feeling time. There is a drawback to that also.

________________________

I just was just thinking that we're missing something here.

What is the most fun...

To me that's pretty important.

(Actually, the most fun for me is the freedom of playing solo, but that's off topic.)

_________________________

The only person I've heard play on this thread is JohnRoss. I which you all would post video recordings to demonstrate what you are saying and show how well it's worked for you. Otherwise it's just talk.

The only BIAB I have is version 2008 Ultra Pak, and it doesn't jibe well with Windows 7, the real drums don't work - etc.

So, I guess if BIAB is like real human beings, that would have to be cool. Even if they're computer-generated reproductions of notes once played by human beings, it's still in metronomic time. The only thing I can see that one would be missing is what seems to me a benefit (and you have every right to question it) of playing without the "singleness" of the metronome's beat. With a band, there are so many "rhythmic prompts" - reminders, cues - of when to play; this versus the single and clear "clack" of the metronome.

And about FUN. Yep, that's the bottom line - for me anyway.