A question about scale fingerings

[1313]

Hey guys!

I am currently working through Jody Fishers Beggining Jazz Guitar book and I am at the page where you learn the C minor and major pentatonic scale fingerings. So a thought struck me, if I learn all these in C minor to the point were it's flawless and fast. Wouldnt it be very easy to transpose this all to B? I mean I just follow the same pattern as on C but I start it on B instead.

I am new to all this theory stuff but not to the guitar though, I relied on just on my ears to this point. And correct me if I'm wrong but scales are a tool to produce a certain style of music/emotion right?

New here by the way, I have been lurking here alot though.

Cheers guys!

[ten left thumbs]

I am currently working through Jody Fishers Beggining Jazz Guitar book and I am at the page where you learn the C minor and major pentatonic scale fingerings. So a thought struck me, if I learn all these in C minor to the point were it's flawless and fast. Wouldnt it be very easy to transpose this all to B? I mean I just follow the same pattern as on C but I start it on B instead.

Indeed.

I am new to all this theory stuff but not to the guitar though, I relied on just on my ears to this point. And correct me if I'm wrong but scales are a tool to produce a certain style of music/emotion right?

Yes, I suppose a scale is there to give you a 'pool' of notes available for soloing, composing, creating melodies, etc in what we could call 'tonal music' (as opposed to atonal). That is not to say that they in-between notes are off-limits, its just you need to learn how and when to use them to good effect.

A major scale will create a certain mood, a minor scale will create a different mood, a blues scale again, different mood. Switching from one scale to another will create a shift in mood: uplifting, darkening, etc.

[1313]

Indeed.



Yes, I suppose a scale is there to give you a 'pool' of notes available for soloing, composing, creating melodies, etc in what we could call 'tonal music' (as opposed to atonal). That is not to say that they in-between notes are off-limits, its just you need to learn how and when to use them to good effect.

A major scale will create a certain mood, a minor scale will create a different mood, a blues scale again, different mood. Switching from one scale to another will create a shift in mood: uplifting, darkening, etc.

Hey ten left thumbs.

Thanks for clearing this up for me mate.

Cheers.

[ten left thumbs]

Good to meet you 1313. Good luck with Jody. That's one on my 'to do' list. And, welcome to the forum.

[ECHOPLEX]

Hello 1313,yes it is nice when you discover that due to the guitar being a shape based instrument,you can learn a scale pattern and then just shift the root up and down to play in different keys.However if you are wanting to move into jazz do not become too reliant on shapes.It is also important to know which notes are within each scale and also intervals of each note in relation to the root.Please ask away if you need any further help with this stuff,and good luck with your journey of discovery in to the world of music theory,once you enter you can never go back.

[1313]

Good to meet you 1313. Good luck with Jody. That's one on my 'to do' list. And, welcome to the forum.

Thank you.

[1313]

Hello 1313,yes it is nice when you discover that due to the guitar being a shape based instrument,you can learn a scale pattern and then just shift the root up and down to play in different keys.However if you are wanting to move into jazz do not become too reliant on shapes.It is also important to know which notes are within each scale and also intervals of each note in relation to the root.Please ask away if you need any further help with this stuff,and good luck with your journey of discovery in to the world of music theory,once you enter you can never go back.

Cheers Echoplex.

Yeah I'm looking forward to this, it is a lot of fun so far.

[JakeAcci]

Hello 1313,yes it is nice when you discover that due to the guitar being a shape based instrument,you can learn a scale pattern and then just shift the root up and down to play in different keys.However if you are wanting to move into jazz do not become too reliant on shapes.It is also important to know which notes are within each scale and also intervals of each note in relation to the root.Please ask away if you need any further help with this stuff,and good luck with your journey of discovery in to the world of music theory,once you enter you can never go back.

+1

[1313]

Hello again guys.

I have yet another question and I feel like I should not make a whole new thread about it because I don't want to flood your forum.

So I know now the minor and major pentatonic scale in all boxes that are written in the book and I can pretty much play them in any key it seems.

But I would like to ask you guys if you know of any songs that are played in these 2 scales so I can learn the licks within the scale and hopefully get a higher knowledge and feeling for it. I want to put these scales to practice ASAP.

Cheers!

[ten left thumbs]

I'm sure someone else will answer re licks.

Tunes based on major pentatonic:

Old MacDonald had a farm
Camptown Races
Oh Suzanna
Mull of Kintyre (chorus)

Hopefully you can work these out by ear.

You should be aware (if not now then soon) that the maj pent and the minor pent are actually the same thing i.e. if you have major pent starting on C and minor pent starting on A, these are the same scale (same pool of notes) just starting on different notes.

Howard Goodall on pentatonic scales:

[1313]

I'm sure someone else will answer re licks.

Tunes based on major pentatonic:

Old MacDonald had a farm
Camptown Races
Oh Suzanna
Mull of Kintyre (chorus)

Hopefully you can work these out by ear.

You should be aware (if not now then soon) that the maj pent and the minor pent are actually the same thing i.e. if you have major pent starting on C and minor pent starting on A, these are the same scale (same pool of notes) just starting on different notes.

Howard Goodall on pentatonic scales:

Great stuff ten left thumbs, thanks a lot!

[RyanM]

I think you'll find most pop melodies are pentatonic based.
As are most classic rock/blues solos.

[1313]

I think you'll find most pop melodies are pentatonic based.
As are most classic rock/blues solos.

Hi RyanM.

How can I figure out if a song really is in pentatonic, I always played by ear without knowing what scale I'm using. Do I play the pentatonic scale over a song while it's running and listen if it fits to know it's within that scale? Some are obvious to me like Twinkle twinkle is in the Major Scale. Any suggestions? Thanks a lot.

[slash08]

I'm having problems with scale fingerings too good thing I found this thread!
Thank you for sharing your thoughts guys!

[ECHOPLEX]

[QUOTE=slash08;245034]I'm having problems with scale fingerings too good thing I found this thread!
Hello slash could you elaborate on what the specific problems are that you are having with scale fingerings.

[Reg]

There are a few things going on...
1) guitar neck mechanics... you need a fingering system that works over the entire neck, that will allow you to move seamlessly up or down, and make jumps when necessary.

2) Your teaching yourself... or at least becoming aware of Harmony ...
simply put... the arrangement of notes and the relationships between them.

Most think of Harmony as the vertical aspects, chords etc.. and melody(counterpoint) as the horizontal aspects, linear notes. There all going on all the time...

Your going to need more than your ears in jazz, at least until you get to that point where your ears have developed enough to be able to hear what's going on.

For example, as was somewhat stated above... a simple pattern of notes... Your Cmin scale... can sound differently... create a different mood, simply by having different notes from that scale define the tonality or modality, which notes have the relationships which create the mood.

This Cmin note collection can have any type of function, depending on how and where it is used. Function can be thought of as where and how the note collection feels like it wants to move or not move.

Just as you need a starting point, a reference point for your neck mechanics, your fingerings, you also need starting point, references for your theory/harmonic understandings. Here is something I posted about fingering, what I use, from a thread I have going in the theory section, check it out and if looks like might help... ask whatever.

Reg

1) Fingerings... I'm a position player, I base all my fingerings or how I see and hear and get out what I hear from positions. (1st finger determines position).

I use different fingerings to help imply different styles. Same notes played in one position have a jazz feel, while when played with a different fingering will sound like rock, blues etc...

I base all my fingerings off 6th string roots and use 2nd finger for those roots...which creates all 1st finger stretches. This is my starting point of reference... My mechanical method of feeling and not having to look at the neck to hear or see where I am. It works well for me.

My reasoning was... my 2nd finger is the strongest, and my 1st finger has the most mobility... which lead to 2nd finger as base and 1st finger for stretches.

There are other fingering... 1st finger, and 4th finger based and some 3rd, 4th finger stretches or combinations of 1st and 4th, hybrids and special purpose etc... I do use many of those. But they are all used in reference to my 2nd finger base starting point.

Everything I do and play in music has a beginning, a starting point, a reference. From there I have methods of using, creating and developing relationships. This doesn't mean I always go through the process of relating to the beginning... I've trained myself... and my instincts, I trust them. My reactions even when spontaneous are really somewhat organized.

So I'll go through and make examples and charts of fingerings and make short video of hand positions etc... maybe wait on the vid for better material.

I somewhat use the same mechanical system for comping...
I use root 6 or 6th string root chords along with Root 5 and root 4. I also see and can use root 3 chords but not much. Those are my starting points... references for voicings and harmonic development.

I usually just voice my lead line, the top note, or have line going on in bass notes. All with reference to my position and what approach I'm using, same with soloing... I don't simple hear a line and play it. I hear the line in context with a harmonic approach. Just as you hear a melodic line or chord progression. What harmonic approach(es) I'm also hearing have influence on the melodic line or chords I'm referencing and developing.

This fingering and mechanical references may be a little boring at first, at least I hope so, but my approaches for actually comping and soloing won't be boring. They will help you understand different systems of playing the same collection notes with different implications.
Best Reg
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[loydb]

Jamie Aebersold recently re-worked volume 1 of How to Play Jazz and Improvise as a guitar-specific version. I strongly recommend it to beginners, and it gives you some nice backing tracks to play over.

Jamey Aebersold Jazz: Vol. 1 How To Play Jazz - For Guitar

[ECHOPLEX]

Well i think i might have to step aside here,i think reg is obviously the man to ask for a detailed explanation of fingerings.Great post Reg,i wish i was as articulate as you.I have been a professional working session/studio musician all my working life,and always fancied teaching to suppliment my often lean earnings.However i know i just do not have the right qualities that it takes to put across information,i believe playing is one skill and teaching is another.There are enough people out their who can play but cannot teach,i did not feel it would be fair for me to become another one of them.I have always worried about beginners who are not able to distinguish between a good and a bad teacher and get led down the wrong path.

[Reg]

Hey thanks for the kind words Echoplex... Your comments about playing and teaching to play are basically the reason I joined this forum. I respect all teachers ... Really. But when I began to check out where and how most guitar teachers were leading guitar students... Long story short... I decided to become involved... Not for $, just to help.

But hey... We all have something to share, look forward to hearing more from you. And from the sound of your experience... We'll all benefit.
Reg

[docbop]

Best thing to happen to me was taking bass lessons and getting into playing scales on one and two strings. That enforces how scales are constructed and knowing scales and scale degrees in small pieces that I can instantly create whatever fingering I need for a situation. From there if you know the formula modes or other scales are made you can create scales/modes at will. Also you watch players like Metheny, Scofield and others who play more linear they are using one and two string scale fingerings a lot.

[ECHOPLEX]

[QUOTE=Reg;245267]. But when I began to check out where and how most guitar teachers were leading guitar students...

I know what you saying Reg,i was talking to a young kid recently who was taking lessons from a "professional guitar teacher",i asked him what he had been learning over the year he had been with him and he proceeded to pull out sheets upon sheets of guitar tab of popular classic rock tunes.This guy knew nothing about how any of these tunes were put together.Some of the things he had been told by this so called teacher were scary to say the least.Unfortunately when i tried to explain that this was not the path to becoming a musician and began to explain a few basics to him,i saw him losing interest very rapidly.So i left him to wallow in his world of tab.

[MarkRhodes]

[quote=ECHOPLEX;245374]

. But when I began to check out where and how most guitar teachers were leading guitar students...

I know what you saying Reg,i was talking to a young kid recently who was taking lessons from a "professional guitar teacher",i asked him what he had been learning over the year he had been with him and he proceeded to pull out sheets upon sheets of guitar tab of popular classic rock tunes.

I wonder if it might not help in reaching kids who want to play rock---and God knows, they outnumber all other kids with guitars in their hands--to ask them, "Say, you like these guys who write their own songs, which is great, so you'll want to know how to do that yourself, right?" Once they realize the need to recognize structures, they realize the need for making notes of it...

[bcrich]

One quick thing you can do is go to youtube and type in "blues backing track" in the search. Play them on your computer and experiment with the pentatonic scales while the blues are playing behind you. Just use the minor pentatonic scale with the blues backing track. for example if it is a blues backing track in G then spend time working your way around the different fingerings for the G minor pentatonics.

[JakeAcci]

I wonder if it might not help in reaching kids who want to play rock---and God knows, they outnumber all other kids with guitars in their hands--to ask them, "Say, you like these guys who write their own songs, which is great, so you'll want to know how to do that yourself, right?" Once they realize the need to recognize structures, they realize the need for making notes of it...

A lot of kids just want to play the songs and no more. Seems odd for us I know, but that's the way it is. Makes sense to me - they just want to play music, not be a student in a classroom.

[slash08]

Very informative thread. Thank you for sharing your thoughts