Confused by Guitar Modes

[JazzGuitar]

Thanks for this

I have tons to learn about jazz guitar.

I am from South Africa and I have recently started lessons with a well known jazz guitarist.

We started with Autumn Leaves and I'm having a great time with - I'm probably going to far ahead but I've already started thinking about how I would play over the chords.

In your opinion - Is learning jazz standards a good way to learn jazz guitar?

Thanks

[JonR]

Thanks for this

I have tons to learn about jazz guitar.

I am from South Africa and I have recently started lessons with a well known jazz guitarist.

We started with Autumn Leaves and I'm having a great time with - I'm probably going to far ahead but I've already started thinking about how I would play over the chords.

In your opinion - Is learning jazz standards a good way to learn jazz guitar?

It's the ONLY way to learn jazz guitar!

BTW, Autumn Leaves - like all standards pre-1959 - is a "functional" progression, so modes have no place.
What you need to know is the key scales. Normally it's played in G minor, although the old Real Book had it in E minor.
It's a classic beginner piece, because it's essentially about ii-V-I progressions in relative major and minor keys:

Cm7-F7-Bbmaj7 = ii-V-I in Bb major (Bb major scale).
Am7b5-D7-Gm = ii-V-I in G minor.
(Ebmaj7 is a linking chord, which is IV in Bb.)

Minor key ii-V-Is are more complicated, because although one scale will fit every chord (G harmonic minor in this case), jazz improvisers tend to go for other scales, especially on the V7 chord, to enhance the tension and give more interesting half-step resolutions.
But the way to begin (with any jazz tune) is to:

1. play the melody, and try to commit it to memory if you can. Classic jazz improvisation was always about "embellishing the melody" first, before launching into the chords and seeing where else they might take you.

2. work through all the chord arpeggios, in as many positions on the neck as you can. There are various ways of doing this, such as:
a: root-3-5-7 of each chord.
b: roots of each chord right through the sequence; then 3rds of each, etc.
c: 3rd of one chord to 7th of next, and vice versa - these are the "guide tones", fundamental to understanding how these "functional" chord progressions work via "voice-leading". Typically you find the 3rd of one chord drops to the 7th of the next (half or whole step), and vice versa, or they will actually be the same note.

The more shapes you know for each chord, the more easily you will be able to construct different kinds of melodic lines linking them, treating the chord tones like stepping stones.

The chord tones altogether (with hints from the melody) should give plenty of material to work with, but you can always add chromatics (between any pair of scale notes) for a bit of spice if you want it.

[mr. beaumont]

In your opinion - Is learning jazz standards a good way to learn jazz guitar?

Thanks

Might be the only way. You HAVE to learn songs.

And to agree further with Jon, using modes in a jazz context well is actually rather advanced...your practice regimen should be about chords, tunes, arpeggios, ear training, copping licks, and getting a good grasp on the major scale itself before you tackle modes...

[JazzGuitar]

It's the ONLY way to learn jazz guitar!

BTW, Autumn Leaves - like all standards pre-1959 - is a "functional" progression, so modes have no place.
What you need to know is the key scales. Normally it's played in G minor, although the old Real Book had it in E minor.
It's a classic beginner piece, because it's essentially about ii-V-I progressions in relative major and minor keys:

Cm7-F7-Bbmaj7 = ii-V-I in Bb major (Bb major scale).
Am7b5-D7-Gm = ii-V-I in G minor.
(Ebmaj7 is a linking chord, which is IV in Bb.)

Minor key ii-V-Is are more complicated, because although one scale will fit every chord (G harmonic minor in this case), jazz improvisers tend to go for other scales, especially on the V7 chord, to enhance the tension and give more interesting half-step resolutions.
But the way to begin (with any jazz tune) is to:

1. play the melody, and try to commit it to memory if you can. Classic jazz improvisation was always about "embellishing the melody" first, before launching into the chords and seeing where else they might take you.

2. work through all the chord arpeggios, in as many positions on the neck as you can. There are various ways of doing this, such as:
a: root-3-5-7 of each chord.
b: roots of each chord right through the sequence; then 3rds of each, etc.
c: 3rd of one chord to 7th of next, and vice versa - these are the "guide tones", fundamental to understanding how these "functional" chord progressions work via "voice-leading". Typically you find the 3rd of one chord drops to the 7th of the next (half or whole step), and vice versa, or they will actually be the same note.

The more shapes you know for each chord, the more easily you will be able to construct different kinds of melodic lines linking them, treating the chord tones like stepping stones.

The chord tones altogether (with hints from the melody) should give plenty of material to work with, but you can always add chromatics (between any pair of scale notes) for a bit of spice if you want it.

Wow - This is a lot to take in

The way I was shown Autumn Leaves is:
Am7 - D7 - GMaj7 - CMaj7 - F#m7b5 - B7b9 - Em

Is this incorrect? It seems to sound right.

[mr. beaumont]

Yep, that's the first 8 bars, your teacher's giving it to you in the "Real Book" key of Em (the original key and often used by "gypsy" jazzers as well)

The "bop" key is G minor.

This is one of those tunes where knowing both is eventually what you need to do, but stick with what your teacher gave you for now.

[JazzGuitar]

Yep, that's the first 8 bars.

Am I correct in that Am7 - D7 - GMaj7 - CMaj7 - F#m7b5 - B7b9 - Em is from the key of G Major? With Am7 - D7 - GMaj7 being the II-V-I?

Thanks

[mr. beaumont]

Yeah, that's a ii V I in G major.

I really think of this as a minor key tune (Em, same notes as G major...that's a small thing, now, bigger later, maybe, as you look at minor key harmony). You're still reading one sharp.

[keith]

Yeah, that's a ii V I in G major.

I really think of this as a minor key tune (Em, same notes as G major...that's a small thing, now, bigger later, maybe, as you look at minor key harmony). You're still reading one sharp.

It is important to recognize though the tonality being minor just from a listening standpoint just to train your ear. Listen to Gmaj chord then the Em and appreciate the difference between major and minor sound of the relative keys.

One thing I've noticed in the recurrent mode thread is that folks seem to get stuck on the relational aspect of the modes so much so that it interferes with them just playing the scale. From your original question how would you play this?: Just realize that all of the modes are alterations of the major scale, which is far more important to understand completely. If you don't know the major scale thoroughly then you should start there. Do you know what and where the chord tones are and the non chord tones? Are you adept at finding all the scale degrees say the major 7th or 6th of the scale you're playing? If you are then just realize that each mode is a fixed alteration pattern to the major scale. For example Dorian is b3rd, b7th of the major scale. Mixolydian b7 etc. So G Dorian: take the G major scale and flat the 3rd and maj7th. More important to this is the sound it creates. The same for the rest of the major modes. Ultimately you'll realize that all of the modes have a mother scale, (major scale, ionian scale), which they are based in. I suspect we all think of a mode along with it's mother scale at the same time. I hope this helps and doesn't confuse further!

[mr. beaumont]

Good post Keith.

I firmly believe folks will never understand modes unless they look at them in a parallel manner, i.e., G Ionian vs. G Dorian vs. G Phrygian...

[GuyBoden]

IMO, I've found that knowing all the note values around a root to be a most valuable lesson.
Guy

[JonR]

Am I correct in that Am7 - D7 - GMaj7 - CMaj7 - F#m7b5 - B7b9 - Em is from the key of G Major?

Not entirely.

With Am7 - D7 - GMaj7 being the II-V-I?

Yes.

Am7 - D7 - GMaj7 - CMaj7 = ii-V-I-IV in G major

F#m7b5 - B7b9 - Em = ii-V-i in E minor.

[JazzGuitar]

Not entirely.
Yes.

Am7 - D7 - GMaj7 - CMaj7 = ii-V-I-IV in G major

F#m7b5 - B7b9 - Em = ii-V-i in E minor.

Thanks Jon

To clarify - When working with the key of G major - GMaj7 - Am7 - B7b9 - CMaj7- D7- Em - F#m7b5 is entirely from that key? And When working with the key of E minor, it would use the exact same chords, starting at the 6th chord.

Also, as far as I understand, when dealing with a Major key the chords are: Major-Minor-Minor-Major-Major-Minor-Diminished.

Why is that B is a major chord, should it not be a minor?

Thanks

[JonR]

Thanks Jon

To clarify - When working with the key of G major - GMaj7 - Am7 - B7b9 - CMaj7- D7- Em - F#m7b5 is entirely from that key? And When working with the key of E minor, it would use the exact same chords, starting at the 6th chord.

Also, as far as I understand, when dealing with a Major key the chords are: Major-Minor-Minor-Major-Major-Minor-Diminished.

Why is that B is a major chord, should it not be a minor?

That's the difference. The B major (or B7) chord is the dominant in the key of E minor. (You may have heard of "harmonic minor"...). Check how it makes Em sound like a key chord, while Bm in the same place doesn't.
If the key were G major, B7 would be what's known as a "secondary dominant", labelled "V/vi" (dominant of the six chord, Em).
In the case of Autumn Leaves, however, if you look at the final chord - where the sequence and the song finishes - that's Em. That means the overall key is best considered as E minor.

Still, there is a strong sense (to my ears) of the key flipping back and forth between G major and E minor.

Am7-D7-Gmaj7 = clear resolution to G, G sounds like key centre.
F#m7b5-B7-Em = clear resolution to Em, now Em sounds like key centre.

What's clever of course - what keeps the sequence ambiguous and appealing - is that some (if not most) of the chords have a double meaning, or twin function, belonging to both keys.
So F#m7b5 is the diatonic vii chord in G major; not necessarily any hint of a key change yet. But the B7 definitely points us away from G towards Em. F#m7b5 is what's known as a "pivot chord" - belongs to both keys, represents a turning point between them.
And the final Em, when it returns to the opening Am7, also becomes a pivot chord: relinquishing its status as tonic in E minor, and becoming vi in G major.
The whole sequence is in fact a cycle of 5ths (root movement downward, or 4ths up): A-D-G-C-F#-B-E-A-D...etc. C-F# is the odd one out, being a diminished 5th (down) or augmented 4th (up). That's how the roots stay in key and return "home" in just 7 moves. (A full cycle of perfect 5ths/4ths would be A D G C F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb/F# B E A.)
Here's an analysis showing how the chords operate in each key:

KEY: G MAJOR  ii    V     I     IV      (vii)    -   (vi)
KEY: E MINOR (iv)   -   (III)  (VI)      ii      V    i
              Am7   D7  Gmaj7  Cmaj7   F#m7b5    B7   Em

Numerals in parentheses represent possible functions which are probably not audible as such. Ie, the Cmaj7 will probably be heard as IV in G major, not VI in E minor. That's down to its proximity to G of course.
The F#m7b5 is more likely to be heard as ii in E minor, but this is more down to familiarity with how m7b5 chords are mostly used in jazz. Ie, classically, F#m7b5 can be used to resolve to G; in jazz this practically never happens; almost always it will precede B7 and lead to Em.
IOW, when you see a half-dim (m7b5) chord in jazz, always assume it's a ii chord in a minor key, not a vii chord in a major key. It makes no difference to the scale (necessarily)but helps understand how the sequences work.

[Reg]

Hey JazzGuitar...

Great advice so far, I'll add a little more...

Everything being talked about, Modal concepts or using term mode to describe starting a scale on each scale degree.... begins with a reference, or starting point.

Think of yourself...going into a house. There are lots of possible starting references...

You could make your reference...
1) the house
2) you
3) the location of the house, (south Africa or local area)
4) could be day or night
5) how you get into the house, walk, run. etc...

My point... there are many ways or methods of understanding... going into a house. If your going to create relationships and develop them, (play Jazz), you usually have a reference or starting point.

Playing jazz is very similar... there are many ways or methods of understanding.

Modal usage, officially as Jon mentioned begins somewhere around 1960... but modal usage has been around forever, blues, folk... etc.

Anyway getting to your Autumn leaves chord progression, How you decide to approach or understand that chord progression needs a reference or starting point...

The tune as a whole, the melody, the changes, functional harmony, modal concepts... chord tones scales...

OK... so generally when beginning... start with the Tune as a whole. So even if you don't understand Functional Harmony, (how many people understand Function or harmony)...anyway, once you hear the tune... most agree it's basic reference is Emin. The tune may move around, but the basic starting reference tonally is... Emin.

You then begin your analysis... how the parts of the tune work together... You can then have target points to become secondary references.

You decided the House is the reference and now your seeing that there are different doors that you can go in through. Front door, back, side, windows etc...

Typically in music... everything relates to Maj. Ionian. In Autumn Leaves we decided that the tune is about Min... The relative Min. of Maj. In Autumn Leaves... Emin and Gmaj. Emin is relative Min of Gmaj. That's a reference. Somewhat like using The Side door to get in the house... the house is the first or primary reference and generally we use the Front Door... but we decide to use the Side door. We're still going into the house... just different door to get in.

So when we begin to use modal concepts... we're changing the design of the house, how all the rooms are connected. Modal concepts change the organization and guidelines of music.

For the most part... we use modal aspects when playing Jazz... We're still using basic functional music as our reference... we just have Targets or points where a different reference becomes the point of creating relationships...
still keeping the beginning reference. We're in the house, but we decide to change the organization of a room. The room is still in the house, but is different color or has different style of floor... whatever we choose.

Autumn leaves is house in Emin... A-7 D7 to Gmaj7 is room where we could decide to call Gmaj a target reference.

You could also decide to call the tune or house Gmaj with E- a room. Making the beginning reference Gmaj.

There are many possibilities...

To be able to approach or understand playing G dorian... you need to decide on a reference. Is G dorian the beginning point or is that G dorian in reference to something.

There are two aspects of playing G Dorian...
1) the very physical organization of the notes and the performance of. All this in relation to it's self, G Dorian. Being aware of all those notes anywhere on your fretboard. Very Mechanical.

2) the understanding of what your playing and what defines G Dorian... all the possible relationships. Is it part of a II V, G-7 to C7, is that II V going to Fmaj.

The 1st part, doesn't take too long... the second does.

[monk]

Hi all

I am struggling to grasp the concept of Modes and how to approach them

Basically, if i'm asked to play G Dorian - How would I approach this:

1. Play the GMajor scale and just flatten the 3rd and fifth notes
2. Find the Key in which G is the second note, which would be F and then play the F major scale from the second note.

What is the best way to approach and understand this?

Thanks

Your first choice won't give you G Dorian. You need to flat the 3rd and 7th notes of a G major scale to get G Dorian.