Beginning theory/technique/reading/everything - overwhelmed!

[a_small_coyote]

I'm probably gonna be verbose here so please excuse the lengthiness..

I figured I'd stop hijacking the Modern Method thread to answer my beginner questions and start my own thread for this since I have so much I'm unsure of and just need some good direction.

I'm at a point in my life where I'm branching out and honing in on different things to work on. One is strength training and triathlon training, the other is guitar, and more specifically, jazz.

It's been pointed out to me that I when dedicate myself to something, I take on way too much in the beginning and get overwhelmed. Well I did it with physical activity, and now I'm seeing I'm doing it with guitar as well.

Quick little background, I've played for 12 years and have never learned an entire song, just snippets of this and that that I like. I could only read tab, and my timing is atrocious. I knew nothing of theory. On a technical level, I can play solos from David Gilmour, but I'm hardly a "guitarist", and even less a "musician". I want to be a musician.


Where I'm at now: I've got the Leavitt Modern Method, I'm getting better at reading music and I'm getting through the beginning sight reading exercises pretty well. Playing with a metronome, and I'm enjoying finally doing things the right way.

For music theory, I've worked through almost all of musictheory.net, and have got a reasonably good grip on basic theory. Triads, seventh chords, intervals, etc. Having started on the Modern Method, I haven't spent any time applying this theory to the guitar aside from slowly learning the notes on the fretboard.


I'm starting to feel a bit overwhelmed, and don't know where to go from here. I bought The Real Book, and sat down for a few minutes with a random song trying to figure out the notes in each chord. I'm seeing F7#9's and Gb7#9's and I'm struggling with figuring these out through my small knowledge of chords and with the help of google to fill in the gaps.

So my question is...well hell I don't know what to ask. Help! Where do I pick up theory after musictheory.net leaves off? What's the best way to begin applying this theory to the guitar? I've been told I should be listening to standards and trying to transcribe them but honestly I don't feel I'm at a point where I can even do that.

I'm not going to give up, or keep going so hard I burn out, I'm just lost right now. Any help would be much appreciated!

[HighResolution]

Hey there Coyote, I certainly can't answer all of your questions but I'd like to offer a piece of advice: Don't look at the whole mountain, because the whole mountain often looks too big. There is no faster way to improve yourself than to just start chipping away. One thing I might do is buy a chord encyclopedia and just look up the chords you don't know. The book will have tons of voicings so just pick a few favorites and make a cheat sheet of favorite chords.

[jdaguitar2]

I agree with HighResolution in that a chord encyclopedia is important to acquire: I like Warren Nunez's Jazz Guitar Chord Bible, the Mel Bay chords, scales and arpeggios is also very good but not as extended (tonally) as the Nunez. A classic favorite is the Chord Chemistry book by Ted Greene, I might wait on this one if I were you just because of its somewhat overwhelming amount of chords.

As far as the Real Book is concerned I would start with the blues tunes; Blue Monk, Straight no chaser, Blue Trane, etc. as blues are the simplest progressions to improvise over (in my opinion).

Once you are able to comfortably play over the changes in all keys try some tunes with ii-Vs; I got rhythm, Tune Up, Autumn Leaves, I Let a song go out of my heart, A foggy Day, Solar, St. Thomas, etc.

[monk]

Quick little background, I've played for 12 years and have never learned an entire song, just snippets of this and that that I like. I could only read tab, and my timing is atrocious. I knew nothing of theory. On a technical level, I can play solos from David Gilmour, but I'm hardly a "guitarist", and even less a "musician". I want to be a musician.

....I'm lost right now.

coyote,
I highlighted what I considered your most important problem. Music is about playing SONGS. Everything else you do must be in service to the song. Learn songs first! Just learn the same way you would if you were learning blues, country, rock or folk. Pick a simple song and learn it chord by chord. Try to sing it. If you don't know the melody, listen to recordings of singers who perform the songs. If you can't or don't sing, play along with the recordings.

Much of the "jazz" repertoire is drawn from the Great American Songbook which is a tern applied to the pop standards of the 30s, 40s and 50s written by people like Gershwin, Porter, Kern, Rodgers & Hart/Hammerstein and others. Singers like Frank Sinatra, Tony Bennett, Nat Cole. Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holliday have recorded dozens of albums of these songs.

Before you worry about theory, scales, technique or soloing, learn songs. Doing so will give you an immediate sense of accomplishment and will teach you a great deal about the structure of songs, if you pay attention to what you're doing.

Keep in mind that most of these songs were the pop hits of their time and all the musicians were familiar with them as songs not as random chord progressions. If you learn songs, it will be much easier to learn to solo over them when you are ready to do so.

Good Luck,
monk

[JazzinNY]

In addition to learning songs, I support the above idea of a chord dictionary, but keep it pretty simple at first. I actually like the Al DiMeola book because he has it broken into Forms. Form I is basically chords with the root on 6th string and other notes on middle strings. These make good "comping" chords.

You want to learn Maj7, Min7, Dom7, Maj and Min 6, Maj and Min 9, Half Diminished and Fully Diminished to start, one shape each.

Then you want to learn some arpeggios on the top 4 (pitchwise) strings, and the implied scales (Maj7 chord = Major scale, Min7 chord = Dorian, Dom7 = mixolydian).

Record a chord progression (it can be something generic like a basic ii V I repeated a few times, or a blues progression), and then improvise over that.

Do this for a while before you try improvising over actual songs. But do learn the melody of songs; it's good reading practice, familiarizes you with various keys, and helps you learn the jazz language.

[Buster Loaf]

here you go, listen to everything this guy has to say. buy his dvd.

[monk]

A good chord book is a necessity. Warren Nune, Al Dimeola, Mel Bay have been mentioned. All are good. I would avoid the Ted Greene book for awhile, it's more of a long term reference and can be overwhelming to a beginner. Most of the chords one needs to play most of the GAS tunes can be found on the first page of the Mickey Baker Jazz Guitar Method; exercises on how to use and connect them make up the first half of the book. Charlton Johnson has a couple of good books on big band and snmall group rhythm playing that are worth looking at.

Again, I'll reiterate that the best thing to do is to learn songs and second JazzinNY's suggestion that learning the melody should follow next after learning to play and possibly sing the tunes. At that point, some knowledge of major scale fingerings will assist in finding the notes of the melodies. If at all possible, listen to singers and try to figure out the melodies by ear. At first it may be challenging but the payoff is worth it.

Regards,
monk

[coolvinny]

No disrespect to the others intended, but I say screw the chord books and just take some lessons from a working jazz pro. Once you have some sort of base, then add to it with a book.

[monk]

here you go, listen to everything this guy has to say. buy his dvd.

The OP stated that he wanted to learn to play jazz. This interpretation of Summertime is more of a folk approach on electric guitar. Nothing wrong with it but it's not the kind of chords and rhythm a jazz guitarist would play. There are better, more jazz oriented DVDs to be found.

[Buster Loaf]

In 12 years the OP has "never learned an entire song". There's plenty of jazz of jazz here, IMO

[henryrobinett]

Take up one thing at a time. It's easy to get overwhelmed when you try to get there all at once. Take up one song at a time, one scale at a time. Only think about theory as it relates to whatever song or thing you're applying.

I have my students work on ONE song at a time. That might take weeks or even months. Then another song till they can rotate three songs or so, or until they REALLY KNOW those songs. Then work on some more.

Each song presents certain problems and issues. We also simultaneously work on technical things that can be APPLIED to the songs. Theory is only as good as you can apply it.

But advice: take one thing up at a time.

[a_small_coyote]

Thanks for all the responses, I'm getting from you guys that I really need to start learning some songs. I'll try and work on that.

I'm not sure if I can just put a CD in and do it by ear, I can't even tune my guitar by ear.

Is there a more structured self study approach I can take to all this?

[ten left thumbs]

Forgive me if this has already been covered, but is there a reason you can't get a good teacher?

[a_small_coyote]

Forgive me if this has already been covered, but is there a reason you can't get a good teacher?

That's a good question.

I work strange hours so I don't have a lot of time to schedule lessons with, I stay really busy on my offdays doing things with a necessary higher priority than my guitar playing, so guitar playing and practice gets cordoned off to late at night when I get off work.

Also can't really afford to drop 50 bucks a week just yet, and feel like I've got some materials that can really get me somewhere with self study. I'm not closed off to the idea of getting a good teacher, and there's a well known jazz guitarist in my area apparently that does lessons. Just not something that's too feasible for me right now.


In other news, I did write a pretty nice few measures last night. Not jazz at all but sounds great either way

[a_small_coyote]

Monk would you recommend something like this: Amazon.com: The Great American Songbook - The Composers: Music and Lyrics for Over 100 Standards from the Golden Age of American Song (9781423419549): Hal Leonard Corp.: Books

?

[ten left thumbs]

That's a good question.

I work strange hours so I don't have a lot of time to schedule lessons with, I stay really busy on my offdays doing things with a necessary higher priority than my guitar playing, so guitar playing and practice gets cordoned off to late at night when I get off work.

Also can't really afford to drop 50 bucks a week just yet, and feel like I've got some materials that can really get me somewhere with self study. I'm not closed off to the idea of getting a good teacher, and there's a well known jazz guitarist in my area apparently that does lessons. Just not something that's too feasible for me right now.


In other news, I did write a pretty nice few measures last night. Not jazz at all but sounds great either way

I hear you! Nevertheless a teacher is *most* helpful at the beginning precisely when we are overwhelmed. I may be shot down for saying this, but you do not necessarily need a good jazzer for this. Your path into jazz would be much easier if you have the basics down first.

Next question: do you have a decent skype connection?

[a_small_coyote]

I hear you! Nevertheless a teacher is *most* helpful at the beginning precisely when we are overwhelmed. I may be shot down for saying this, but you do not necessarily need a good jazzer for this. Your path into jazz would be much easier if you have the basics down first.

Next question: do you have a decent skype connection?

Well that's the thing, I've had lessons when I was younger, and my technical level is pretty high. So while I can play a lot of different passages and runs really well, I just never put together an entire song.

I've got metronome practice and sight reading practice to get me up to snuff on the stuff I glossed over when I was younger. Kinda filling in the cracks of the foundation. So if I got a teacher, I would like a jazz teacher for sure.

No skype connection, I just surf the internet at work, dont have internet at home.

[henryrobinett]

Get the Real Book, or iRealb online. It just has the changes, but that'll do you good to just learn the chord changes to a bunch of standards.
http://www.irealb.com/

[Buster Loaf]

Dude, its jazz you must self motivate, it is the essense

[a_small_coyote]

Dude, its jazz you must self motivate, it is the essense

Was this really necessary? In no way have I indicated that I need to be motivated. I made a detailed thread asking for help in certain areas and some good direction and made it clear that I'm motivated by the fact I've taken on an entire slew of things at once and overwhelmed myself.

I'm not going to keep on in response to your post, that just really irritated me.

[monk]

Monk would you recommend something like this: Amazon.com: The Great American Songbook - The Composers: Music and Lyrics for Over 100 Standards from the Golden Age of American Song (9781423419549): Hal Leonard Corp.: Books
?

coyote,
I checked the contents of this book at the publisher's website. These are the kind of songs I was referring to. The format is Piano/Vocal/Guitar which can be a bit cluttered. Henry's suggestion of a Real Book is a good one. Just chords and melody format. My suggestion would be to get The Standards Real Book which is similar to the one you found but much more for the money.

The Standards Real Book | Sher Music Co.
The MSRP for this is $42 but you can get it on Amazon for $28.

[a_small_coyote]

coyote,
I checked the contents of this book at the publisher's website. These are the kind of songs I was referring to. The format is Piano/Vocal/Guitar which can be a bit cluttered. Henry's suggestion of a Real Book is a good one. Just chords and melody format. My suggestion would be to get The Standards Real Book which is similar to the one you found but much more for the money.

The Standards Real Book | Sher Music Co.
The MSRP for this is $42 but you can get it on Amazon for $28.

Ok I'll look into that one instead then. Since you're mentioning the Real Book, I do have vol 6 of the Real Book so I can probably get some good mileage out of that? Or should I be working up to that from the GAS you're talking about? I kinda like the sound of learning songs from the GAS too

[monk]

Ok I'll look into that one instead then. Since you're mentioning the Real Book, I do have vol 6 of the Real Book so I can probably get some good mileage out of that? Or should I be working up to that from the GAS you're talking about? I kinda like the sound of learning songs from the GAS too

If you already own a Real Book, you should be able to learn with that. I wasn't able to find contents for RB Vol. 6 but I'm assuming that it's a mix of jazz tunes and GAS like the original.

My reason for recommending the GAS tunes is that they comprise a large body of the material played by jazz artists and they are easily accessible as vocal recordings, which I think makes them easier to learn for a beginner. One of my students, a teenaged girl, made considerable progress in this area by learning all the tunes on Michael Buble's first three albums.

[JohnRoss]

a) Go back to roots. Jazz was originally built on straightforward folk/pop music (the popular music of the time), so requirement #1 for a jazz musician was to be able to play that straightforward folk/pop music. That may mean things that don't appeal to you like When the Saints or Just A Closer Walk With Thee, but you really should be able to do those three or four chord bashes and not just do them, but do them with your eyes shut, on automatic pilot. I'm not saying don't do more complicated things if you feel up to them, but first things first.
b) Find someone to play with, if only occasionally. There are dozens of reasons for this, beginning with the fact that jazz is in essence a collective music.

[Buster Loaf]

You need to get a better understanding of what jazz is.